not trolling. maybe im little provocative to get some conversation here. i honestly think that stamkos is SO FAR as good as a goalscorer than gretz was.
Oh good grief.
A guy who has yet to even win a scoring title is as good as the greatest goal scorer to ever play the game?
I don't think i have seen anyone mention that if Gretzky was playing against modern goaltenders with today's oversized,light-weight equipment he would also have the benefit of wearing skates the weighed half as much as the ones he wore in the 80s and the sticks today are light years ahead of the wooden Titans he used
There are way to many other variables than just goal tending to get any kind of a reliable estimate.
How would he be in modern equipment?
How would he fair against the deeper/modern opposition?
How would his skating compare to the modern generation?
etc..
There is no grantee his skills would of transferred over the modern era so easily, and stats don't really compensate for this. We can only assume.
If Gretzky was prone to trying things that weren't effective you could knock a few points off his actual totals. The guy just outsmarted and finessed everybody. Gretzky and Kurri with no red line would be sick.
Teams tried defending against him all the time. No effect really. Same with Boston against LaFleur in the cup finals.
Teams just did not know how to defend very well in the 80s. Even with no red line I think Gretzky's game would be severely hindered at just how well teams defend the neutral zone. There is just nowhere near the same amount of room on the ice as there was back then. The only part of Gretzky's game that I see being only minimally effected by the modern game is his behind the net play, especially on the pp. I could still see him dominating power plays with that, especially as now the heavy shot from the point is something that pretty much every team has and PK's would have to stretch out more than they did in the 80s.
not trolling. maybe im little provocative to get some conversation here. i honestly think that stamkos is SO FAR as good as a goalscorer than gretz was.
Just thought it was interesting watching the Tampa/Pittsburgh game today. Malkin had another hat trick which put him up to 36 goals on the year. Stamkos was shutout and he is at 43. Why do I bring this up? Well, its because since Crosby is injured and Ovechkin is doing whatever the heck he is in Washington these days, the billing as the top goal scorer is a little more wide open. I can concur that Stamkos is the best goal scorer in the NHL today. But is he that far ahead of Malkin who seems likely to be #2 right now? We can let the numbers decide that one. As of today:
Goals per game leaders:
Stamkos 0.70
Malkin 0.66
It seems to pale in comparison here:
Top goal scorers from 1979-'80 to 1985-'86
Gretzky - 481
Bossy - 413
Dionne - 338
See, I even cherry picked those seasons to coincide with Bossy's last big goal scoring year. It also includes Gretzky's two first season where he "only" peaked at 55 goals. And yet STILL, Gretzky comes out way ahead of a player whose reputation was based on goals.
One question here. Is Malkin, as great as he is, as good of a goal scorer than Bossy? The answer is no. For that matter is Stamkos? No again. Is Stamkos on Dionne's level? We'll see, but not yet. And yet Gretzky almost embarasses them in comparison and goals weren't even his strongest point. Food for thought.
There are way to many other variables than just goal tending to get any kind of a reliable estimate.
How would he be in modern equipment?
How would he fair against the deeper/modern opposition?
How would his skating compare to the modern generation?
etc..
There is no grantee his skills would of transferred over the modern era so easily, and stats don't really compensate for this. We can only assume.
Sounds like someone who never saw him play. Don't mean to incite...but your points have zero relevance to the type of player Gretzky was. This is a player who was small, not the fastest, didn't shoot the hardest, I don't think he even had a wrist shot. The idea that lighter equipment would make him quicker and more agile and the composite sticks would give him an actual wrist shot - well that's just scary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Just thought it was interesting watching the Tampa/Pittsburgh game today. Malkin had another hat trick which put him up to 36 goals on the year. Stamkos was shutout and he is at 43. Why do I bring this up? Well, its because since Crosby is injured and Ovechkin is doing whatever the heck he is in Washington these days, the billing as the top goal scorer is a little more wide open. I can concur that Stamkos is the best goal scorer in the NHL today. But is he that far ahead of Malkin who seems likely to be #2 right now? We can let the numbers decide that one. As of today:
Goals per game leaders:
Stamkos 0.70
Malkin 0.66
It seems to pale in comparison here:
Top goal scorers from 1979-'80 to 1985-'86
Gretzky - 481
Bossy - 413
Dionne - 338
See, I even cherry picked those seasons to coincide with Bossy's last big goal scoring year. It also includes Gretzky's two first season where he "only" peaked at 55 goals. And yet STILL, Gretzky comes out way ahead of a player whose reputation was based on goals.
One question here. Is Malkin, as great as he is, as good of a goal scorer than Bossy? The answer is no. For that matter is Stamkos? No again. Is Stamkos on Dionne's level? We'll see, but not yet. And yet Gretzky almost embarasses them in comparison and goals weren't even his strongest point. Food for thought.
Stamkos, Malkin (assuming this is their peak) are not any better than Peter Stastny, Denis Savard, Dale Hawerchuk, Denis Savard, Mark Messier....few would argue that.
So I fail to see how Gretzky wouldn't annihilate today's scorers just like he did to them.
Bossy was my favourite player. I think he was the best goal scorer I've ever seen BESIDES Mario and Wayne (Lafleur was debatable) but Gretzky was a SET-UP guy and still demolished goal scoring records.
There's no way Stamkos is as good as Bossy was.
I simply cannot wrap my small brain around these adjusted stats as they apply to Gretzky.
I suppose Peter Stastny would be a 60-70 pt player....like PA Parenteau. Who knew?!
I'm pretty sure John Tavares will hit 40 goals if not this year very soon, and I assume very regularly. Tavares, like Gretzky, relies on his smarts on the ice. Everyone and their mother knows Tavares isn't even in the same universe as Gretz
Nthat's true but we can also speculate how well Taveres would do goal scoring wise with those goalies in the 80's as well were his lack of foot speed wouldn't hold him back as much as it does today.
Heck Taveres could score 70 plus in his peak in that NHL IMO.
don't think so? go back and look at his 16 year old line in the OHL 67-72-62-134 (in a lower scoring OHL as well) compared to Wayne 63-70-112-182 17 year old comp (Taveres is born in set and Wayne in jan so R71 will be happy with the comps).
78 was much higher scoring than 07 as well so it gives some food for thought before we all jump to wild conclusions here.
And everyone can just relax, I'm only talking about a goal scoring comparison for Taveres back in the 80's, I think Wayne is the best player in history period.
The idea that lighter equipment would make him quicker and more agile and the composite sticks would give him an actual wrist shot - well that's just scary.
Whatever advantage he gets from modern equipment, so do the other players, making it rather moot. I'm sure he would be a marque player but I doubt he would dominate to the same extent.
Nthat's true but we can also speculate how well Taveres would do goal scoring wise with those goalies in the 80's as well were his lack of foot speed wouldn't hold him back as much as it does today.
Heck Taveres could score 70 plus in his peak in that NHL IMO.
don't think so? go back and look at his 16 year old line in the OHL 67-72-62-134 (in a lower scoring OHL as well) compared to Wayne 63-70-112-182 17 year old comp (Taveres is born in set and Wayne in jan so R71 will be happy with the comps).
78 was much higher scoring than 07 as well so it gives some food for thought before we all jump to wild conclusions here.
And everyone can just relax, I'm only talking about a goal scoring comparison for Taveres back in the 80's, I think Wayne is the best player in history period.
disclosure: I think Tavares is a great hockey player, will probably win an Art Ross if he ever leaves Long Island, probably the smartest offensive player in the NHL not named Crosby. I think he's got Gretzky-like skills, hands, vision, hockey sense....but I don't think there's any comparison whatsoever.
You're cherry picking one season, Tavares' best season ever, and one he didn't replicate or improve on since (not statistically anyway)
I think the great watmath!rrwilliams said it best, Dec 22 1981, 4:56 pm:
Quote:
Wayne Gretzky is the NHL player of the week this week, after he scored
7 goals and 7 assists for 14 points in 4 games. He now has (approx) 96
points in 39 games this season, a phenomenal total. I can hardly wait until
this guy grows up!
He was younger than Tavares is now.
---
I know you respect 99 and are simply making a statistical comparison at the same age, different eras, similar stats, but I don't buy it.
He scored 800 points more than the three BEST players of his era, HALL OF FAMERS. It's absurd to suggest there's anyone close to that today. Not statistically. Not the eye test.
Whatever advantage he gets from modern equipment, so do the other players, making it rather moot. I'm sure he would be a marque player but I doubt he would dominate to the same extent.
the equipment specifically addresses WEAKNESSES in 99s game. He had a lot of weaknesses, he was just so much better between his ears that the fact he was too small, too slow, had a weak shot were things he overcame.
I don't think Crosby gets better by being any faster, I don't think Ovy is better by shooting harder. Gretzky most definitely is better if he can shoot harder and be more agile. It would simply allow him to widen the gap among his peers, the where the mind and the body converge.
---
I was an Islanders fan, I never liked Gretzky. It bothers me to defend this guy so much on this board. I wanted to think Trottier was a better centre (some felt he was a better all-around player back in the day) but since 1984, and everything after that (well after the 200pt seasons) - there's simply no argument.
As one who was a kid in the 1980s and saw enough Gretzky magic... yeah, you had to have seen him. He was an outlier. No amount of fudging the numbers can change that.
A prime Gretzky close to Stamkos today is just as ridiculous as comparisons to Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne and the others he almost doubled in points in his prime.
Question: Does anyone think that Stamkos/Malkin/Sedins are any better than Lafleur/Dionne?
Nice straw man there and yes I think that Stamkos as a goal scorer is up there with Wayne and Malkin playing at his peak is better than both Guy and Marcel.
And the thread is specific to goal scoring so let's not confuse points with goals either.
Quote:
scoring more than 70 goals:
70s - 1 time - Esposito
80s - 8 times (Gretzky 4, Kurri (thank you 99), Bernie Nicholls (thank you 99) and Mario twice)
90s - Brett hull 3x, Selanne/Mogilny in '93
since - zero
scoring more than 150 pts:
70s - 1 time - Esposito
80s - 11 times - Gretzky 8 times, Lemieux 2x, Bernie Nicholls (thank you 99)
90s - Gretzky, Mario 2x
since - nobody
from 1980-90, Gretzky scored 800 points MORE than Peter Stastny, teammate Jari Kurri, and Denis Savard, the next highest scorers, in the same amount of games, against the same goalies, in the same era. I don't think you'll find anyone who'll say that today's top players are significantly better than Stastny, Kurri and Savard, they are comparable. Nuff Said.
---here's a thought. Maybe it was the players, not the era.
Your generalizations about scoring applies to era, to the middle of the bell curve, somewhat - not to such outliers.
If you remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the top of the NHL, you don't see the blip that so many on this board try desperately to adjust for.
Here's a thought goal scoring was greater in the 80's than it is now, maybe the game is different as well?
We can all see this with goalie pads and the increased emphasis on defense and blocking shots or does that not apply to outliers as well?
It's pure speculation and conjecture on how many goals even a guy like Wayne would score today as there are alot of factors at play and it's really hard to ahve a serious discussion on it when the obvious ones are not even addressed.
as a side note i ahve never seen empty net goals or stats discussed and I remember Edmonton scoring alot, comparatively speaking, than happens today and have not seen any stats on this does anyone have any?
Nice straw man there and yes I think that Stamkos as a goal scorer is up there with Wayne and Malkin playing at his peak is better than both Guy and Marcel.
And the thread is specific to goal scoring so let's not confuse points with goals either.
Rk Player GP G A PTS
1 Wayne Gretzky 768 626 1216 1842
2 Jari Kurri* 754 474 569 1043
3 Michel Goulet* 744 438 458 896
4 Mike Gartner* 773 413 408 821
Similar games played, Gretzky out-scored (in GOALS) by almost 200 over Michel Goulet (yes, I made the stretch that Kurri probably doesn't score 474 without some of the 1200 assists from Gretzky - almost 1000 more points than Goulet)
I know, I know...if you adjust Goulet, he's right there with Jason Pominville and Joffrey Lupul today.
And Gretzky was not a goal scorer. You remove ALL his goals and he still leads the decade in scoring.
Quote:
Here's a thought goal scoring was greater in the 80's than it is now, maybe the game is different as well?
We can all see this with goalie pads and the increased emphasis on defense and blocking shots or does that not apply to outliers as well?
It's pure speculation and conjecture on how many goals even a guy like Wayne would score today as there are alot of factors at play and it's really hard to ahve a serious discussion on it when the obvious ones are not even addressed.
Sure, the game was different, not significantly. Players blocked shots, the played defense just as much, until the Oilers changed the game. They had a feeling they could outscore other teams, even without playing defense, largely because of Gretzky.
There was a lot more holding, cross-checking in front of the net, more intimidation/fighting, fewer teams. Mike Rupp wouldn't likely be an NHL player.
But with all the changes, dead puck or not, Gretzky seemed to outscore everyone, by a LARGE to GIGANTIC margin, in every tournament, era, international, at every age.
Not sure if you saw Gretzky with the NYR but he was a SHELL of his former self. Jagr is better today, relative to his peak, compared to Gretzky with the NYR. He still had numbers that put many to shame.
Quote:
as a side note i ahve never seen empty net goals or stats discussed and I remember Edmonton scoring alot, comparatively speaking, than happens today and have not seen any stats on this does anyone have any?
This would be a cool stat to see. Gretz did get a lot of these but I wonder who has the most. It's probably a guy who's typically on the ice protecting a 1 goal lead, on a team who wins a lot of close games. Kris Draper, John Madden, Guy Carbonneau, Messier, Linden, Sakic...I have NO IDEA.
Nice straw man there and yes I think that Stamkos as a goal scorer is up there with Wayne and Malkin playing at his peak is better than both Guy and Marcel.
I love Malkin, an absolute treat to watch in the NHL today. But he needs some staying power to be compared to Lafleur. Guy had a 4-5 year reign on the NHL. It was HIS NHL back then. Now watching what Malkin did by tearing the Lightning to shreds today was beautiful, but I want to see him do that more often, 5 years in a row. He's had a couple of off years but he needs to do more to prove he is at Lafleur's level at his best.
But your argument that Stamkos is as good of a goal scorer as Gretzky doesn't have any merit. For starters there has never been any proof or evidence of that claim. Secondly, Stamkos has never shown that he would obliterate a prime Bossy in the goal scoring department. We know Gretzky did this because we SAW him do it. Comparing Stamkos to Gretzky even in just goal scoring is overhyping him
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123
Nthat's true but we can also speculate how well Taveres would do goal scoring wise with those goalies in the 80's as well were his lack of foot speed wouldn't hold him back as much as it does today.
Heck Taveres could score 70 plus in his peak in that NHL IMO.
don't think so? go back and look at his 16 year old line in the OHL 67-72-62-134 (in a lower scoring OHL as well) compared to Wayne 63-70-112-182 17 year old comp (Taveres is born in set and Wayne in jan so R71 will be happy with the comps).
78 was much higher scoring than 07 as well so it gives some food for thought before we all jump to wild conclusions here.
And everyone can just relax, I'm only talking about a goal scoring comparison for Taveres back in the 80's, I think Wayne is the best player in history period.
Well if Mike Bossy never cracked 70.................
Teams just did not know how to defend very well in the 80s. Even with no red line I think Gretzky's game would be severely hindered at just how well teams defend the neutral zone. There is just nowhere near the same amount of room on the ice as there was back then. The only part of Gretzky's game that I see being only minimally effected by the modern game is his behind the net play, especially on the pp. I could still see him dominating power plays with that, especially as now the heavy shot from the point is something that pretty much every team has and PK's would have to stretch out more than they did in the 80s.
I don't believe you can just take Gretzky's 'game' and simply map it onto today's 'game' in order to judge how Gretzky would do today.
I do think you can safely assume that he would be just that much more talented and smarter than the competition as he was in his day. The lack of a Lemieux level talent today may indicate that Gretzky would win the Art Ross by even larger margins than he did in his day.
If today's systems can't stop the best players of today they sure as heck couldn't stop the best hockey player in modern history. How many goals did Malkin score the other day? Look at how Crosby was doing before he was concussed. Gretzky was a 92 goal scorer against the best of his day. There is no argument to suggest Gretzky couldn't do that or better today.
Defensive systems are better? Talent is diluted? Fewer elite talents? Every argument has a counterpoint. Stats completely fail to take account the human aspect. Math and the world's biggest supercomputers can't figure the weather with any accuracy. A guy with a PC sure isn't going to figure out the behaviour of one guy against a large, constantly changing group of humans.
I love Malkin, an absolute treat to watch in the NHL today. But he needs some staying power to be compared to Lafleur. Guy had a 4-5 year reign on the NHL. It was HIS NHL back then. Now watching what Malkin did by tearing the Lightning to shreds today was beautiful, but I want to see him do that more often, 5 years in a row. He's had a couple of off years but he needs to do more to prove he is at Lafleur's level at his best.
But your argument that Stamkos is as good of a goal scorer as Gretzky doesn't have any merit. For starters there has never been any proof or evidence of that claim. Secondly, Stamkos has never shown that he would obliterate a prime Bossy in the goal scoring department. We know Gretzky did this because we SAW him do it. Comparing Stamkos to Gretzky even in just goal scoring is overhyping him
Well if Mike Bossy never cracked 70.................
Look for Malkin I'm talking about peak, he is probably the closest thing to Mario that we will see for a while with his size and skillset.
I remember the 80's very well and watch a ton of hockey the fact of the matter is that the difference in the game from early 80's to now is that yes Stamkos is on par with Wayne as a pure goal scorer IMO.
Some people get up on the pure stats and forget the huge differences in defenses, coaching and the defensive skillset and goalies trying to stop and prevent stars from scoring today.
I have a ton of respect for Wayne and consider him the best player ever but lets give the modern stars they due as well here.
Frankly I think Wayne would be embarrassed by some of the claims put forward by some of his supporters on the histroy forum much in the same way Sid would be embarrassed by some of the posters on the main boards.
Look for Malkin I'm talking about peak, he is probably the closest thing to Mario that we will see for a while with his size and skillset.
I remember the 80's very well and watch a ton of hockey the fact of the matter is that the difference in the game from early 80's to now is that yes Stamkos is on par with Wayne as a pure goal scorer IMO.
Some people get up on the pure stats and forget the huge differences in defenses, coaching and the defensive skillset and goalies trying to stop and prevent stars from scoring today.
I have a ton of respect for Wayne and consider him the best player ever but lets give the modern stars they due as well here.
Frankly I think Wayne would be embarrassed by some of the claims put forward by some of his supporters on the histroy forum much in the same way Sid would be embarrassed by some of the posters on the main boards.
Not as embarrassed as Stamkos would be that someone is arguing he is the best goal scorer the game of hockey has ever seen.
OTOH I'd bet Gretzky and his family would be proud of what hockey fans think of him. He earned it. Moreso perhaps than any athlete in modern history.
Similar games played, Gretzky out-scored (in GOALS) by almost 200 over Michel Goulet (yes, I made the stretch that Kurri probably doesn't score 474 without some of the 1200 assists from Gretzky - almost 1000 more points than Goulet)
I know, I know...if you adjust Goulet, he's right there with Jason Pominville and Joffrey Lupul today.
I know you are being sarcastic, but that's an example right there of how a lot of people think with modern players. Of course anyone whoever watched Goulet and Lupul wouldn't even suggest the two are similar.
Quote:
This would be a cool stat to see. Gretz did get a lot of these but I wonder who has the most. It's probably a guy who's typically on the ice protecting a 1 goal lead, on a team who wins a lot of close games. Kris Draper, John Madden, Guy Carbonneau, Messier, Linden, Sakic...I have NO IDEA
That's Gretzky's empty net goals. Scroll down a bit. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...retzky2_stats/
He scored 55 out of 894 into the empty net. Take away those 55 and he had 839 which would be 37 more than Howe. But then again, everyone of Howe, Lemieux, Hull, Dionne, etc. had to have had some empty netters as well so take that into account.
Of the 122 playoff goals Gretzky scored 9 were into the empty net. You think it was a freebie? Ask the opponents. When a player scores into an empty net it is a deflating experience and a nail in the coffin for the other team. In some tight games, the empty netter is the most integral goal of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalton
Not as embarrassed as Stamkos would be that someone is arguing he is the best goal scorer the game of hockey has ever seen.
Kind of what I thought too. I am surely not shortchanging Stamkos nor am I this type of fan who thinks the players of yesteryear are better all the time than the current crop. But there are some gimmes. Gretzky is one of them. You have to take into account that if the common player in the NHL has improved then the superstars would have as well. Gretzky probably would have learned even more tricks for his arsenal and if he was born in 1990 just like Stamkos he would be none the wiser and think nothing of power skating schools, etc. But he'd still have his hockey sense and you have to assume that translates into greatness regardless of era.
I'll say it again, you're embarassing Stamkos and forcing people to downgrade him when you compare him to Gretzky, even in the goal scoring department. This is not fair to Stamkos at all. Stamkos has yet to embarass the other goal scorers in the NHL. Gretzky embarassed Bossy, Dionne, Goulet and even his own teammate Kurri until he finally focused more on passing and Kurri's goals were more compatable with Gretzky.
When Stamkos can make a mockery of the goal scoring race just once we can talk. Then when he does it 5 times against Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Kovalchuk, etc. then and only then can we START the comparison.
well. he does not look bad according to stats?
and this guy is only 22. 9 gwg this far. 8 last season.
he is going to break 100 gwg in ten years.
gretzky had how many? 91. its tie with mark recchi.
and gretz peaked at 22 goalwise! how come? its because of powerhouse oilers. hes got only one 50+ (35-40 by todays standards) season after leaving oilers.
It's a shame, because I like gretz but you are forcing me to make him look bad when you compare him to Stamkos
PS: adjusted stats is not a theory. its rather simple math.
If gretzky peaked at 22 because of the powerhouse Oilers, how come they hadn't even won a single cup yet? They went on to win 4 with him later - all in seasons he scored less goals. Fact is, most goal scorers peak early. Look at Ovechkin. He may not even hit 50 again, let alone break 65. If Stamkos is still scoring like this in 6 years, you may have something. But odds are, he'll start to slow down.
Actually, it's even hard to say he peaked there at 22. If it weren't for injury, he may have beaten his own goal scoring record the year he had 87. He was on pace to do so, though pace doesn't always mean anything.
Regardless, comparing Gretzky to Stamkos is a little silly. Goalscoring may be close according to adjusted stats, but Gretzky's assist totals are nearly as high as Stamkos' point totals are.
If gretzky peaked at 22 because of the powerhouse Oilers, how come they hadn't even won a single cup yet? They went on to win 4 with him later - all in seasons he scored less goals. Fact is, most goal scorers peak early. Look at Ovechkin. He may not even hit 50 again, let alone break 65. If Stamkos is still scoring like this in 6 years, you may have something. But odds are, he'll start to slow down.
Actually, it's even hard to say he peaked there at 22. If it weren't for injury, he may have beaten his own goal scoring record the year he had 87. He was on pace to do so, though pace doesn't always mean anything.
Regardless, comparing Gretzky to Stamkos is a little silly. Goalscoring may be close according to adjusted stats, but Gretzky's assist totals are nearly as high as Stamkos' point totals are.
Pre-injury Gretzky was on pace for 97 goals 144 assists in 83-84. Domination.
Most big goal scorers peak early.
Bobby Hull relatively (pure point totals pre and post expansion are difficult) peaked at 23
Mike Bossy peaked at 22 or 24 (depending on how you define it). Also, he didn't really peak as he had between 51 and 69 goals 9 years in a row.
Brett Hull peaked late at 27
Gretzky peaked at 21
Lemieux peaked at 23
Marcel Dionne peaked at 27
Ovi peaked at 22
Yzerman peaked at 23
Jagr peaked at 24
Selanne peaked at 22
The trend since the NHL expansion is for goal scoring peak at 22-26 while the point total peak is more like 24-30
Last edited by jigglysquishy: 02-26-2012 at 11:15 PM.
