I think Wayne's numbers would have been about 10 % less now a days. Review the total points by players in the top 20 every year of the NHL. Players were producing about a 1 to 1.5 from the beginning of the 1900's to today.
During the 80's there was a blip when the top players (besides Gretzky and Mario) were getting 1.5 to 1.8 ish (guys like Steve Y.,Jagr, Dino C., D. Savard). this seem to last about 10 years.
This was the age of "Run and Gun" Oiler hockey.
It did not last long as Big money came into the league and so did Technologies with better, well rounded Coaching and Defence systems.
Watched Wayne grow up in Edmonton, make no mistake, he would be killing everybody in points today... just as he did in the 80's.
Actually Gretzky was in the NHL for season 1 at 18 just like Stamkos. If you want to be fair, include Stamkos' rookie season. It is rather telling when you are trying to compare someone to Gretzky and you ignore said player's least productive season.
Whether you want to adjust it or not there is no amount of sugar that can make the difference here. Gretzky simply put has been a far better goal scorer than Stamkos in his first three years.
Even if you include Stamkos' 4th year and even if we give him a somewhat generous projection of 60 goals and then add Gretzky's 4th year the totals look like this:
Stamkos - 189
Gretzky - 269
Good for Stamkos, but that isn't really close. Gretzky was beating Bossy out for the goal scoring lead by significant margins. Stamkos so far has a tie with Crosby in 2010 although a most likely significant win by the end of 2012.
Ovechkin's first 4 years are at least comparable to Gretzky's. He had 219 goals. Still give the edge to Gretzky for the difference between his peers, but if you are going to compare someone to him then I would use Ovechkin.
Yeah. You nailed it. And if i would have to compare Ovechkin to someone, i would rather think Hull or Bossy. Gretzky just plain and simple blows everyone out of the water, when talking about offence. The guy did whatever he liked. Cant actually see, why someone would even try to compare Gretzky to any other player than Lemieux.
Mario and Wayne are the only forwards that were about on the same level. Everyone else were far back.
Your inference is misplaced, I would never talk about absolutes in terms of goal scoring and would put both Wayne and Stamkos in the top ten.
The closest I will get to an absolute is Wayne's play making ability.
Putting Stamkos in the top-10 goalscorers of all time seems premature. He is off to a great start... but is this his peak or the beginning?
In terms of absolutes, Gretzky is factually the greatest goal scorer ever. He has both the career and single season records. What you seem to indicate is a subjective opinion... that isn't as clear.
not trolling. maybe im little provocative to get some conversation here. i honestly think that stamkos is SO FAR as good as a goalscorer than gretz was.
IF stammer continues at the same level some 10 years i will rate him higher.
So, also Perry and Crosby are as good as Gretzky. And Ovechkin is 3x better than Gretzky?
Your reasoning is not working. How big was the win margin in goals for Gretzky when he led the league with 92 goals? Now, look at the margin that Stamkos has had to win his peers? It is Gretzky, no contest.
If you are saying that Stamkos is on par with Gretzky, the you are saying that he is CLEARLY better than Mike Bossy, Brett Hull etc... And that is a claim that you will never be able to feed for me. No matter how much you show me adjusted stats, Prime Gretzky would still beat the competition in todays league. And frankyl, i cant see how someone could ever make me think otherwise.
Putting Stamkos in the top-10 goalscorers of all time seems premature. He is off to a great start... but is this his peak or the beginning?
In terms of absolutes, Gretzky is factually the greatest goal scorer ever. He has both the career and single season records. What you seem to indicate is a subjective opinion... that isn't as clear.
Well 2 1st place (assuming his 6 goal lead on Malkin holds up) and 1 2nd in goal scoring in his 1st 4 years might be a bit premature but with his release I don't think so personally.
Remember though it's not just about modern goaltending, it's also about modern equipment in general, players included.
Giving Gretz one of the new sticks alone automatically makes him better. If Wayne had a weakness, it was his wristshot and the new sticks eliminate that weakness bigtime.
Personally I think it's funny when people are using players with 2-3 high goal scoring seasons and comparing them to a full decade and more from the Gretzky's and the Bossy's.
You gotta do a hell of a lot more than just score 40+ goals for a few seasons to even be mentioned in the same breath as the Gretzky's, Lemieux's and Bossy's... ALOT MORE!
he was constantly undressing goalies with delay moves up tight, something today's butterfly goalies may be MORE vulnerable to, see datsyuk, kane, spezza or other great "hands" players. I hate to break it to everyone but gretzky's dangles were quicker and way more subtle than any of those players.
Oh and the stamkos/hull/ovi one-timer from the dot or down tight to the goalline? Yeah Gretz had a great one of those too...that's another shot butterfly goalies have maybe more trouble with than the old school stand up/kick save guys. Remember, young gretz had as accurate a slap shot and onetimer as anyone that has ever played. Imagine him with todays sticks...his shot would look like stammer's laser beams.
If you've witnessed both eras I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. With today's butterfly goaltenders the snipes from the high slot, or above the dots are pretty much done with, and rebounds aren't "yakkity-sax" worthy like they were before the butterfly, so gretz would lose those types of goals. But he'd still have nooo problem finding he back of the net.
preparation style has changed talent level hasn't. i think young gretz would have pumped in 65-75 goals in today's set-up.
Remember though it's not just about modern goaltending, it's also about modern equipment in general, players included.
Giving Gretz one of the new sticks alone automatically makes him better. If Wayne had a weakness, it was his wristshot and the new sticks eliminate that weakness bigtime.
Personally I think it's funny when people are using players with 2-3 high goal scoring seasons and comparing them to a full decade and more from the Gretzky's and the Bossy's.
You gotta do a hell of a lot more than just score 40+ goals for a few seasons to even be mentioned in the same breath as the Gretzky's, Lemieux's and Bossy's... ALOT MORE!
Ya I guess it took a long time for us to figure out what kind of players Wayne and Bossy were as well right?
Time will tell on how Stamkos does career wise but I don't need any more time to see his release and goal scoring skill in a fully integrated NHL just like most of us who watched Bossy and Wayne knew these things pretty early on in their careers.
Ya I guess it took a long time for us to figure out what kind of players Wayne and Bossy were as well right?
Time will tell on how Stamkos does career wise but I don't need any more time to see his release and goal scoring skill in a fully integrated NHL just like most of us who watched Bossy and Wayne knew these things pretty early on in their careers.
Here we go about the "fully integrated NHL" again.
What about how Gretzky absolutely dominated every International tournament he played in going up against the best of the best around the world.
Competition levels and full NHL integration mean absolutely nothing in regards to Gretzky. He dominated anything and anyone that he played against, THAT'S A FACT!
Show me just one of these players you're talking about that can go into the Olympics and dominate against that level of competition to the degree Gretzky did over and over again.
During his prime in 4 Canada/World Cups, he produced 57 points in just 31 games. That's against the best of the best around the world.
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 02-27-2012 at 03:58 PM.
^^^ Out of 4 Canada Cups, Gretzky was the top scorer if all 4. in fact, if you go back to his World Juniors, including all international tournaments until his prime ended (Gary Suter hit), he was the top scorer 6 out of 6. This against the best in the world. If anyone knows of one other player in history that has ever done this, please let me know, but I somehow doubt anyone has come even remotely close.
Ya I guess it took a long time for us to figure out what kind of players Wayne and Bossy were as well right?
Time will tell on how Stamkos does career wise but I don't need any more time to see his release and goal scoring skill in a fully integrated NHL just like most of us who watched Bossy and Wayne knew these things pretty early on in their careers.
To be fair, Bossy was on the cover of the Hockey News magazine after his 50-in-50 in 1981 with the caption "Hottest Stick in NHL history?" They were already contemplating it. Unfortunately it was short lived. Gretzky the very next season shredded that record with 50-in-39 and 92 goals. This might explain why Bossy resented Gretzky to an extent. Gretzky stole Mike Bossy's thunder and with the snap of a finger the best goal scorer in the NHL was #99 for a long time.
No one is talking that way about Stamkos as of now. He is a heck of a player, and I too love his release and the velocity of his shot. But before we get nuts I think we need to rehash our memories. In the first few years of Ovechkin's career especially during his 2008 season there were a lot of people talking very similar to the way you are about Ovechkin vs. Gretzky. The idea was that anyone was stupid to think Ovechkin wouldn't eventually surpass Gretzky as the all-time goal scorer, not only statistically but in people's minds. People like me tried to calm the storm and explain just how difficult it is to maintain a rampant goal scoring pace in the NHL. Some people were mocked for even suggesting that Ovechkin would fail. Well, here we are, the guy is 26 years old and while he's had a heck of a career he will need a huge 180 just to be a 50 goal scorer again. This is his second year in a row of being a 30-35goal scorer. So the bottom line, is that if Ovechkin can face burnout or whatever he is facing, then Stamkos certainly can, and will.
There are rare exceptions in NHL of players thriving in the goal scoring department at an advanced age. Bossy, Gretzky and Lemieux are the only two I have seen year in and year out keep that pace going up until they were 30 or more. Lemieux cracked "only" 50 goals as a 31 year old. Chances are Stamkos doesn't. Even Brett Hull never hit 50 after the age of 29.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19
^^^ Out of 4 Canada Cups, Gretzky was the top scorer if all 4. in fact, if you go back to his World Juniors, including all international tournaments until his prime ended (Gary Suter hit), he was the top scorer 6 out of 6. This against the best in the world. If anyone knows of one other player in history that has ever done this, please let me know, but I somehow doubt anyone has come even remotely close.
Throw in the fact that in the 1996 World Cup an old beaten up Gretzky led the Canadians in scoring. And he was 3rd in tournament scoring. A 35 year old Gretzky with nothing left to prove. Yet somehow there are questions about him being able to tackle today's NHL.
While this whole thread is somewhat ridiculous, I mean people are actually downgrading the player who rewrote the record book. I am surprised that other oldies like me have not mentioned that it is more a case of goaltender equipment rather than lack of defensive systems that effected scoring the way it did in the 80s. Goalies today wear pads and gloves that are twice the size and half the weight.
As far as skill difference today, yes players are bigger and faster yet a lot of that speed also comes down to much lighter gear. During the 80s there were 9 less teams and not too many players played into their late 30s
I am surprised that other oldies like me have not mentioned that it is more a case of goaltender equipment... Goalies today wear pads and gloves that are twice the size and half the weight.
This is only partially true. The upper body equipment is larger (for good reason - goaltending hurt back then!). The leg pads have longer thigh-rise, but are not wider. The trapper is a bit larger, although not that much larger than what was being used towards the end of the 80s. (check out this set Fuhr was wearing in ca. 1988 - hardly smaller than today:
The goaltending position, however, has really been honed to more of a science than it used to be. The butterfly style, even for goalies who aren't pure butterfliers, has really made it harder to score at the bottom of the net.
All that said...
Fact is that a lot of the goals that Gretzky scored in the 80s would not have gone in on a modern goaltender, at least not exactly as they were scored at the time. The thing is, however, for that exact reason Gretzky would not have taken those same shots against a modern goalie.He would have scored some other way. Gretzky scored at >50G per 80GP pace for almost 10 years. Do the "Gretzky would be a 35G man today" people think that goalies didn't try to change their tactics to stop Gretzky? Do they not think that goalies didn't spend hours watching video and trying to dissect his game to gain an upper hand? Were goalies doing the same things in 88-89 when he scored 54G as they were in 79-80 when he scored 51G? No way. Goalies adapted (or tried). But so did Gretzky. Nothing magical has happened between 88-89 and now. It's still hockey, the sun still rises in the east, and Gretzky would own the league.
(BTW, the same argument applies for defence as well)
Last edited by McGuillicuddy: 02-27-2012 at 10:25 PM.
Reason: Had a double-negative in there...
Putting Stamkos in the top-10 goalscorers of all time seems premature. He is off to a great start... but is this his peak or the beginning?
In terms of absolutes, Gretzky is factually the greatest goal scorer ever. He has both the career and single season records. What you seem to indicate is a subjective opinion... that isn't as clear.
Technically he has scored the most goals in any season ans also for his career that's what is factual.
To say that he is absolutely the greatest goal scorer ever both for any regular season and for his career is also subjective maybe to a different degree but it's always better to put these things in tiers.
A turn of the Century guy like Russell Bowie who scored 239 goals in 80 games in his career doesn't have a chance in your above statement simply due to the lack of games played back then.
This is only partially true. The upper body equipment is larger (for good reason - goaltending hurt back then!). The leg pads have longer thigh-rise, but are not wider. The trapper is a bit larger, although not that much larger than what was being used towards the end of the 80s. (check out this set Fuhr was wearing in ca. 1988 - hardly smaller than today:
The goaltending position, however, has really been honed to more of a science than it used to be. The butterfly style, even for goalies who aren't pure butterfliers, has really made it harder to score at the bottom of the net.
All that said...
Fact is that a lot of the goals that Gretzky scored in the 80s would not have gone in on a modern goaltender, at least not exactly as they were scored at the time. The thing is, however, for that exact reason Gretzky would not have taken those same shots against a modern goalie.He would have scored some other way. Gretzky scored at >50G per 80GP pace for almost 10 years. Do the "Gretzky would be a 35G man today" people think that goalies didn't try to change their tactics to stop Gretzky? Do they not think that goalies didn't spend hours watching video and trying to dissect his game to gain an upper hand? Were goalies doing the same things in 88-89 when he scored 54G as they were in 79-80 when he scored 51G? No way. Goalies adapted (or tried). But so did Gretzky. Nothing magical has happened between 88-89 and now. It's still hockey, the sun still rises in the east, and Gretzky would own the league.
(BTW, the same argument applies for defence as well)
Where are these people and surely they are in the minority and probably have as much chance of being true as the "well he would score goals at the same rate" crowd.
He is the greatest of all time (playerwise) and one of the best goal scorers as well but his stats wouldn't automatically transcend todays game either.
Some people think the game hasn't changed that much but actually taking a close look even subtle small changes can have a huge impact on scoring (and these things happened in Wayne's actual playing days as well) and the major ones would as well.
I watched hockey very closely in the 80's and sometimes I think people can get too caught up in the stats and not put that era and those players in perspective compared to today's game.
Just looking at the pure margins Gretzky outscored his competition strongly suggests he'd still outscore today's league by a wide margin, even though his scoring would be lower. It's easy to imagine the other leading scorers were just a bit behind him but in reality they were closer to today's leaders than they were to Gretzky. Lets use, say, 5th place as a reference point.
Technically he has scored the most goals in any season ans also for his career that's what is factual.
To say that he is absolutely the greatest goal scorer ever both for any regular season and for his career is also subjective maybe to a different degree but it's always better to put these things in tiers.
A turn of the Century guy like Russell Bowie who scored 239 goals in 80 games in his career doesn't have a chance in your above statement simply due to the lack of games played back then.
And also, hockey was very different back then. The difference between 80`s and 2010´s hockey is "slightly" smaller than the difference between 1900´s and 80´s. So that argument does not hold water.
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123
Where are these people and surely they are in the minority and probably have as much chance of being true as the "well he would score goals at the same rate" crowd.
He is the greatest of all time (playerwise) and one of the best goal scorers as well but his stats wouldn't automatically transcend todays game either.
Some people think the game hasn't changed that much but actually taking a close look even subtle small changes can have a huge impact on scoring (and these things happened in Wayne's actual playing days as well) and the major ones would as well.
I watched hockey very closely in the 80's and sometimes I think people can get too caught up in the stats and not put that era and those players in perspective compared to today's game.
But still, you have players that played against Gretzky in the early 90´s. Selanne for example. If he can still be a top point producer in today´s league, over 40 years old, but cant hold a candle to Gretzky when Gretzky was over his prime and Teemu just entering it. How on earth do you think that Crosby´s Ovechkin´s and Sedin´s could be on par with Gretzky. There is no way to prove either of us wrong or right in these conversations. But somehow i find it hard to believe that Gretzky is a player that can be compared to the elite NHL´er today. If you would have to rank the goalscoring ability, i would put Gretzky number one, and frankly, by a clear margin. After that it is Lemieux, Brett Hull, Mike Bossy etc... Stamkos has a change to be on the same team as Hull, but no way he will come close to Gretzky.
I watched hockey very closely in the 80's and sometimes I think people can get too caught up in the stats and not put that era and those players in perspective compared to today's game.
how can you explain the pure separation from the pack though? That's the part that makes zero sense.
Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy, Bryan Trottier, Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Mark Messier were incredible hockey players, Hall of Fame material. This tier of player is certainly as good as the top players today - NO?
Yet Gretzky out-scored these guys almost 2-1 over 7-10 YEARS.
In the NHL, Internationally, whatever.
And stopping Gretzky wasn't something nobody tried doing - turns out it was not possible. His separation from the other elites lasted his whole career, in varying degrees.
We also have to consider the Gretzky impact on the NHL. To truly take a wild guess at how he would do today you'd have to create a scenario that Gretzky never existed when he did. Perhaps that's similar to accepting that he wouldn't do the same things today? That we can't say that Gretzky's move wouldn't work today because he probably wouldn't do it knowing it wouldn't work? Seriously if a fan can see that then maybe Gretzky would too LOL? That would be the same as denying his talent and nobody's doing that right?
Gretzky's slap shot was tailor made for those 80s goalies, but his wrist shot was too mediocre to be an elite goal scorer against modern goaltending, you can see how relatively quickly his goal scoring petered out compared to the other greats, and there was a lot more going on there than just his injury. He simply didn't have the right kind of shot.
This is correct and a kind of overlooked semi-fact.
On the other hand it is amazing how dominating goal scorer Gretzky was during that short period relying on his accurate slapper.
He had his moments in his elder days too. It was 1997 playoffs against Panthers when Gretzky scored a hat trick. IIRC, two of them with his trademark slapshot.
Gretzky just seemed to put the puck in the net as opposed to a wrister. In fact he'd put it where the goalie wasn't with such ease that I honestly believe a wrist shot wasn't necessary for him. Lemieux appeared to do that at times too. Just kind of pushed it or put it where he wanted. It was if they didn't need a wrist shot maybe. A fact that made me see Lemieux as the greatest pure goal scorer I've ever seen. Up to then it was Bossy all the way.
It was as if he knew he was putting the puck where the goalie stood no chance of making the save.
Gretzky just seemed to put the puck in the net as opposed to a wrister. In fact he'd put it where the goalie wasn't with such ease that I honestly believe a wrist shot wasn't necessary for him. Lemieux appeared to do that at times too. Just kind of pushed it or put it where he wanted. It was if they didn't need a wrist shot maybe. A fact that made me see Lemieux as the greatest pure goal scorer I've ever seen. Up to then it was Bossy all the way.
It was as if he knew he was putting the puck where the goalie stood no chance of making the save.
Which is what seperates the greats from the also-rans. Mario, just like Gretzky, just like Bossy didn't have to slap the puck to score. Mario could score in tight and still roof it. It doesn't mean Stamkos, or Hull or Ovechkin who are more known to use their heavy shot make it any worse, but it does tell you something when these guys were scoring on the very same goalies but didn't have to hammer it.
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Originally Posted by TAnnala
But still, you have players that played against Gretzky in the early 90´s. Selanne for example. If he can still be a top point producer in today´s league, over 40 years old, but cant hold a candle to Gretzky when Gretzky was over his prime and Teemu just entering it. How on earth do you think that Crosby´s Ovechkin´s and Sedin´s could be on par with Gretzky. There is no way to prove either of us wrong or right in these conversations. But somehow i find it hard to believe that Gretzky is a player that can be compared to the elite NHL´er today. If you would have to rank the goalscoring ability, i would put Gretzky number one, and frankly, by a clear margin. After that it is Lemieux, Brett Hull, Mike Bossy etc... Stamkos has a change to be on the same team as Hull, but no way he will come close to Gretzky.
Just for fun, here are the top point getters in the 1990s:
Gretzky - 1020
Oates - 927
Yzerman - 918
how can you explain the pure separation from the pack though? That's the part that makes zero sense.
Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy, Bryan Trottier, Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Mark Messier were incredible hockey players, Hall of Fame material. This tier of player is certainly as good as the top players today - NO?
Yet Gretzky out-scored these guys almost 2-1 over 7-10 YEARS.
In the NHL, Internationally, whatever.
And stopping Gretzky wasn't something nobody tried doing - turns out it was not possible. His separation from the other elites lasted his whole career, in varying degrees.
We are talking goalscoring here still right Moose and Trottier were 2 way players and playmakers 1st.
Also Wayne is the best player in the game ever and he is also playing on a team that played high flying "let's win 7-4" type of games.
What happens if Hitch is the coach of a modern team with Wayne on it, does anyone think he scores 70 plus goals for him?
I mean AO's 65 is the aberration since the lockout and it looks like Stamkos might beat the next highest total of 56, it's simply too hard of a league to envision even Wayne scoring 70 goals in IMO.
This is not saying anything about Wayne's legacy but we need to look at these things realistically as well.
