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Buying out Franzen's Contract

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Old
02-24-2012, 11:19 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I'll stand by this: I don't think Franzen's effort level is as bad as you guys claim. It's exactly what I see on a nightly basis with Ericsson, he makes a poor or questionable decision and people EXPLODE any other defensemen does the same thing and it's ignored.
What you say is correct, the Ericsson love/hate here is odd. But I dont view #6 dmen with disgust. I never minded Lilja and I will never mind Ericsson.

Reason being is that those players will rarely kill you from game to game because they wont be put in important situations to fail (most of the time). Theyre depth players, simply. No use wasting time worrying about them, imo.

Fraznen is the Red Wings #1 winger. He is in the spotlight every game and expected to produce just like every other primary, top line player in the league is. His stats say that he does. But watching him every game, you know his game is seriously lacking in very key departments.

Again, this thread has made me realize it isnt Franzen I am frustrated with, its Holland's complete lack of acknowledgement to a glaring hole in the lineup that could be filled by moving assets.

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02-24-2012, 11:21 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Hossa had one great playoff run. He happened to be on Crosby's wing. Coincidence?
It might be. We've seen a bunch of guys have one monster playoff run where everything clicked. Hossa's a far better player in the regular season than a lot of those other guys, but it's also not impossible that it was just the run where everything fell into place for Hossa. While Crosby was simply a better player than pretty much everyone, Hossa hasn't had dogs for linemates in Detroit and Chicago.

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02-24-2012, 11:21 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Great being a Wings fan, I love having Franzen problems more than the majority of the leagues issues.
This is like a fetal position for some people

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02-24-2012, 11:24 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
This is like a fetal position for some people
What can I say, it's comfortable.

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02-24-2012, 11:27 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
What you say is correct, the Ericsson love/hate here is odd. But I dont view #6 dmen with disgust. I never minded Lilja and I will never mind Ericsson.

Reason being is that those players will rarely kill you from game to game because they wont be put in important situations to fail (most of the time). Theyre depth players, simply. No use wasting time worrying about them, imo.

Fraznen is the Red Wings #1 winger. He is in the spotlight every game and expected to produce just like every other primary, top line player in the league is. His stats say that he does. But watching him every game, you know his game is seriously lacking in very key departments.

Again, this thread has made me realize it isnt Franzen I am frustrated with, its Holland's complete lack of acknowledgement to a glaring hole in the lineup that could be filled by moving assets.
Well, at that point we're assuming that the assets required to fill that hole, are assets we'd feel comfortable giving up and that we wouldn't just be opening new holes up that would become just as glaring. I am willing to bet the Wings know they have a lot of good complimentary players, and they have tried to add to that (and likely would have, imo, if teams like florida hadn't been willing to extend such overpayments). And with the rumors about Parise, I think it's clear that the Wings are going to look to improve these areas in the future.

I can understand criticizing the Wings' conservativeness to a degree, but I'm not sold that there were a lot of moves out there to make at prices we would have been thrilled with.

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02-24-2012, 11:29 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I've been called ultra sensitive about some issues on the board, I think this is an issue that a large portion of the fanbase has become ultra sensitive too. I'm not surprised, considering how easy it is for Wings fans to stick their nose up at the Wings success and say "not good enough!" Great being a Wings fan, I love having Franzen problems more than the majority of the leagues issues.
Someone needs to adapt the "First World Problems" meme to the Red Wings...

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02-24-2012, 11:29 AM
  #57
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Simple truth is that warts and all considered, he's still a guy good for 30 goals and a 4 million dollar cap hit. 4 million these days don't even get you Brook Laich. Next summer it might get you Jiri Hudler.

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02-24-2012, 11:31 AM
  #58
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Someone needs to adapt the "First World Problems" meme to the Red Wings...
Haha. I don't think Fugu would appreciate that popping up in every thread.

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02-24-2012, 11:32 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
I think it mostly means he plays with Pavel Datsyuk.

Bert's suddenly +21 after being a minus player the past two seasons.
Except Franzen's been a positive player his whole career and his +- in the playoffs in his career is also exceptional.

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02-24-2012, 11:36 AM
  #60
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Obviously playing with Datsyuk helps. No arguments here. But you have to attribute it partly to Franzen. Even Pavel freaking Datsyuk can't defend against 5 players all at once. And Bert isn't exactly a Selke winner. It's +23. That's among the best in the league. I think attributing it 100% to Datsyuk is not fair.

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02-24-2012, 11:37 AM
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Funny you say that, because while not tier, you believe we made the right choice in keeping Franzen over a legitimate top tier in Hossa.

I think our lack of top tier players is our ultimate downfall.
I tend to agree. Few weeks ago someone commented that a Cup team needs to have five top tier players.

Dats, Lids, Howard (for now)..... Z............................ Franzen?

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02-24-2012, 11:40 AM
  #62
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What can I say, it's comfortable.

Nice

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02-24-2012, 11:41 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by TheOtherOne View Post
Obviously playing with Datsyuk helps. No arguments here. But you have to attribute it partly to Franzen. Even Pavel freaking Datsyuk can't defend against 5 players all at once. And Bert isn't exactly a Selke winner. It's +23. That's among the best in the league. I think attributing it 100% to Datsyuk is not fair.
Framzen had a better +/- than Datsyuk before he played on Datsyuk's line
But a lot of that was because Datsyuk was pretty awful for awhile, and because the Flip/Franzen line carried the team early


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02-24-2012, 11:46 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TheOtherOne View Post
Obviously playing with Datsyuk helps. No arguments here. But you have to attribute it partly to Franzen. Even Pavel freaking Datsyuk can't defend against 5 players all at once. And Bert isn't exactly a Selke winner. It's +23. That's among the best in the league. I think attributing it 100% to Datsyuk is not fair.
I think the reason we see Dats centering Mule and Bert, and Z centering Flip and Hudler (opposite of how offensive chemistry has shown) is because Zetterberg's defense has dropped off to the point that he can't effectively cover up for Franzen and Bert. Datsyuk can.

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02-24-2012, 11:49 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
I think the reason we see Dats centering Mule and Bert, and Z centering Flip and Hudler (opposite of how offensive chemistry has shown) is because Zetterberg's defense has dropped off to the point that he can't effectively cover up for Franzen and Bert. Datsyuk can.
I kind of agree.
Zetterberg has Hudler on his line, though. But Flip, at times, is ceter on that that line.

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02-24-2012, 11:50 AM
  #66
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Well, at that point we're assuming that the assets required to fill that hole, are assets we'd feel comfortable giving up and that we wouldn't just be opening new holes up that would become just as glaring. I am willing to bet the Wings know they have a lot of good complimentary players, and they have tried to add to that (and likely would have, imo, if teams like florida hadn't been willing to extend such overpayments). And with the rumors about Parise, I think it's clear that the Wings are going to look to improve these areas in the future.

I can understand criticizing the Wings' conservativeness to a degree, but I'm not sold that there were a lot of moves out there to make at prices we would have been thrilled with.
I would hope youre right, but the way Holland hasnt touched the prospect pool in deals tells me he values those prospects more than he does the current roster's chances at the Cup.

I would never sell the farm for a couple players to get a Cup, thats just stupid. But the chances that all of Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Smith, Sheahan, Ferraro, Tatar, Mursak, Jurco, et all turn out to be NHL regulars is right between slim and none.

A few *might* be Tomas Fleischman at best. So, in my mind, thinking about it that way, there is no reason you dont flip 2 of them for Evander Kane, plus picks and a roster player.

There is no reason to not move one of them and a pick to get Semin. Wings did it for Lang who isnt half the player Semin is.

There is no good damn reason to hold onto all this highly-rated talent for...what, exactly? Its a ********* guarantee that only 2 or 3 of them will ever crack the Wings lineup at any point in the future.

Waiting for the best deal? Hoarding assets? Is this franchise run by HF or something where picks and prospects are worth more than actual NHL proven talent?

Its ridiculous. This year's team needs one spot filled to have a real chance to win the Cup. Scoring Top6 winger. There are a few available and I see or hear nothing happening.

Its an obvious flaw, a giant wart that will prevent them from winning the Cup (or even competing, really). Without that acquisition, this is a guaranteed lost year. Second round and out. I am not saying "The Wings SUCK!" or that the roster is trash or anything stupid like that.

What I am saying is that in a 7 game series against anyone of the Canucks or Sharks, the Wings are going to lose. Guaranteed. Hell, with the way there Top6 is, they might lose a series to StLouis or Nashville if Franzen doesnt enter his always expected and mentioned beast mode in the playoffs.

It seems some around dont believe that or chalk things up the last 2 years to something other than being completely overmatched. Face it, the Wings lost every series they should have watching the quality of play and talent on the roster. Outside Datsyuk, the Top6 is "meh" with Z's decline.

I am done posting about it. I am hitting every thread this morning and its probably annoying for everyone including me. Top6 bums me out and the organization's lack of acknowledgement is infuriating. I certainly hope Holland doesnt think this team can win the Cup this year without an acquisition in the Top6, even if that acquisition isnt as good as Franzen. There needs to be another player added to the Top6.

Roll into the playoffs with the roster as is and its curtains on another and an ever-closing window on this roster's ability to win the Cup. Datsyuk will be fine for another 2-3 years, Howard will be great for a very long time coming, but everyone else is either topped out (Mule, Flip...basically the whole roster) or on a very sharp decline (Z, Lidas, Cleary, Holmstrom). There is no room for improvement from within, imo.

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02-24-2012, 11:57 AM
  #67
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The title of the thread is silly. You only buy out UNTRADEABLE contracts. Mule is still tradeable. But unfortunately we have a GM who has traded 3 roster players since the lockout, one of which was basically giving Leino away. So the chances of Holland pulling the trigger and trading a family member away is sadly, pretty close to nil.

But as I've said, if I was GM, shopping both Zee and Mule would be my first order of business. Trade them while you still can. Zee for Nash. Done. We get younger, faster, bigger, healthier, and a guy who would score 40+ with Pav. An extra $1.7M cap hit, but it's a contract that expires at age 33. Better than age 40. If Carter was worth a high-end young player and a #1, then Mule should at least get us a #1. So dump Mule for a #1 at this draft, then give Parise a blank cheque.

Nyquist-Pav-Nash
Parise-Fil-Hudler
Cleary-Helm-Mursak
Bert-Abby-Miller

Kind of too bad we just spent $4M on Bert. Would rather use Emmerton or Tatar or a hundred other UFAs for that role. But too late. But this whole thing is pointless. Zee and Mule are going nowhere. Nyquist replaces Homer. That's the only thing Holland will do.

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02-24-2012, 12:05 PM
  #68
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Once he goes on another 4 goals in 5 games type streak, the hate will be postponed until he has another dry spell like this. The guy has a >4 mil cap hit, what's the worry about? It's not like he's making superstar money

Someone made a good point in the deadline thread. In the cup run, he didn't have a playmaker giving him the puck, and made plays mostly by himself. Maybe experiment with Helm and Miller/Abby on the 3rd line since they're playing well right now? Just an idea.


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02-24-2012, 12:07 PM
  #69
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Osgood told him whats up!!! Get rid of Franzen? Dunno about that?

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02-24-2012, 12:11 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by TheOtherOne View Post
Obviously playing with Datsyuk helps. No arguments here. But you have to attribute it partly to Franzen. Even Pavel freaking Datsyuk can't defend against 5 players all at once. And Bert isn't exactly a Selke winner. It's +23. That's among the best in the league. I think attributing it 100% to Datsyuk is not fair.
Franzen the past two games: -4
Bert the past two games: 0

Not the largest sample size, but not encouraging either.

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02-24-2012, 12:26 PM
  #71
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Franzen needs to have more confidence and try to carry the puck himself sometimes. He can't just try to be a sniper or stationary play-maker all the time because he has decent speed, he should use it more.

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02-24-2012, 12:29 PM
  #72
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I would hope youre right, but the way Holland hasnt touched the prospect pool in deals tells me he values those prospects more than he does the current roster's chances at the Cup.

I would never sell the farm for a couple players to get a Cup, thats just stupid. But the chances that all of Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Smith, Sheahan, Ferraro, Tatar, Mursak, Jurco, et all turn out to be NHL regulars is right between slim and none.

A few *might* be Tomas Fleischman at best. So, in my mind, thinking about it that way, there is no reason you dont flip 2 of them for Evander Kane, plus picks and a roster player.

There is no reason to not move one of them and a pick to get Semin. Wings did it for Lang who isnt half the player Semin is.


There is no good damn reason to hold onto all this highly-rated talent for...what, exactly? Its a ********* guarantee that only 2 or 3 of them will ever crack the Wings lineup at any point in the future.

Waiting for the best deal? Hoarding assets? Is this franchise run by HF or something where picks and prospects are worth more than actual NHL proven talent?

Its ridiculous. This year's team needs one spot filled to have a real chance to win the Cup. Scoring Top6 winger. There are a few available and I see or hear nothing happening.

Its an obvious flaw, a giant wart that will prevent them from winning the Cup (or even competing, really). Without that acquisition, this is a guaranteed lost year. Second round and out. I am not saying "The Wings SUCK!" or that the roster is trash or anything stupid like that.

What I am saying is that in a 7 game series against anyone of the Canucks or Sharks, the Wings are going to lose. Guaranteed. Hell, with the way there Top6 is, they might lose a series to StLouis or Nashville if Franzen doesnt enter his always expected and mentioned beast mode in the playoffs.

It seems some around dont believe that or chalk things up the last 2 years to something other than being completely overmatched. Face it, the Wings lost every series they should have watching the quality of play and talent on the roster. Outside Datsyuk, the Top6 is "meh" with Z's decline.

I am done posting about it. I am hitting every thread this morning and its probably annoying for everyone including me. Top6 bums me out and the organization's lack of acknowledgement is infuriating. I certainly hope Holland doesnt think this team can win the Cup this year without an acquisition in the Top6, even if that acquisition isnt as good as Franzen. There needs to be another player added to the Top6.

Roll into the playoffs with the roster as is and its curtains on another and an ever-closing window on this roster's ability to win the Cup. Datsyuk will be fine for another 2-3 years, Howard will be great for a very long time coming, but everyone else is either topped out (Mule, Flip...basically the whole roster) or on a very sharp decline (Z, Lidas, Cleary, Holmstrom). There is no room for improvement from within, imo.
I'm trying to think of similar deals we could have gotten into, though. I look at the Neal trade, for example, and we didn't really have a "Goligoski" unless we're moving Kronwall. Kindl hadn't played enough, and Smith hadn't even finished a full year in GR, while it appears Dallas wanted a definite roster player for Neal. Carter was moved for Johnson, but again that's like moving Kronwall.

We could have dealt picks for bargaining rights, but I wasn't that high on either Wiz or Ehrhoff. Maybe that would be different for Parise/Suter, but I can't imagine anyone being happy about losing assets just to see a guy sign elsewhere on July 1st.

I just don't see a lot of deals happening that I think the Wings could have realistically been a part of, at least not yet. If there was something I would criticize them for, it would be not moving some prospects up a little quicker, and maybe establishing them as trade pieces. I think Nyquist earned a spot out of camp. I thought Smith deserved to stay up with his play. But keeping them down allows them to develop and gives us better immediate depth in case of injuries, so I can see the argument for how the Wings have played their hand (even if I don't entirely agree with it).

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02-24-2012, 12:36 PM
  #73
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I'm trying to think of similar deals we could have gotten into, though. I look at the Neal trade, for example, and we didn't really have a "Goligoski" unless we're moving Kronwall. Kindl hadn't played enough, and Smith hadn't even finished a full year in GR, while it appears Dallas wanted a definite roster player for Neal. Carter was moved for Johnson, but again that's like moving Kronwall.

We could have dealt picks for bargaining rights, but I wasn't that high on either Wiz or Ehrhoff. Maybe that would be different for Parise/Suter, but I can't imagine anyone being happy about losing assets just to see a guy sign elsewhere on July 1st.

I just don't see a lot of deals happening that I think the Wings could have realistically been a part of, at least not yet. If there was something I would criticize them for, it would be not moving some prospects up a little quicker, and maybe establishing them as trade pieces. I think Nyquist earned a spot out of camp. I thought Smith deserved to stay up with his play. But keeping them down allows them to develop and gives us better immediate depth in case of injuries, so I can see the argument for how the Wings have played their hand (even if I don't entirely agree with it).
The Wings like to overripen everyone and that kills trade value. Guys are 25 years old and barely getting sniffs at the lineup.
Our best prospect is 23 years old. How much trade value does Brendan Smith actually have?
Probably the most valued player in a deal is PROVEN good NHLer 24 and under, making a decent contract.
When does that ever happen for Detroit? When it does, it usually means guy is here forever.

Guys in Detroit tend to peak later than everyone where else because the opportunity isn't there during the real peak years.

It has pros and cons.

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02-24-2012, 12:37 PM
  #74
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Osgood told him whats up!!! Get rid of Franzen? Dunno about that?
Osgood?

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02-24-2012, 12:53 PM
  #75
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Franzen needs to have more confidence and try to carry the puck himself sometimes. He can't just try to be a sniper or stationary play-maker all the time because he has decent speed, he should use it more.
He's a bigger version of Hudler. Neither can skate much or have puck skills. They're strictly shooters.

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