I understand that Brown is better right now, but in the construction of our team, a 1st line winger is far more important than basically another Hartnell/Simmonds type player. We need a long term solution for who is going to play with Giroux, and Jvr is the best, most cost effective option we have.
Also, we'd be trading 6 years of Jvr for 2 years of Dustin Brown. There is also uncertainty around how much Brown will make/produce after this contract as he'll want a decent upgrade in pay, and will be in his 30's.
I think you are both underrating Brown overrating JvR. Brown is not basically another Hartnell/Simmonds. Brown is a complete player who could play on the top line with Giroux (though, as you pointed out, maybe not long term because of his age/contract). JvR, on the other hand, is a young and raw talent. While he absolutely could be that top line winger you are talking about, he also may not turn out to be anything more than Brown is offensively (while IMO won't ever reach Brown in the rest of his game). I'd take Brown over JvR any day of the week.
So far Bobby Mac said about ten teams are lining up at the door for Brown per tsn 1050. All the big boys are there, including the two teams that made it to the finals last year.
And nothing about the Flyers. Most of the talk was about Toronto. I figured it would be. Funny someone called up about incarcerated bob and he immediately dismissed the rumor He said no chance right now. It was about Nabakov to Toronto, he said nothing is anywhere near imminent on that deal if it does even become a possibility.
Bobby Mckenzie on twitter not to long ago said they like brown as a player not a captain. You are not going to believe who he said they want to be the captain. MIKE RICHARDS.
Of course it's his IMO but still, he is usually spot on with these things.
Not too sure Richards would accept the LA captaincy, if offered, given his past experience in that role with some fans and media in Philadelphia. Of course, there doesn't appear to be any "Pronger" type personalities in the LA dressing room, so he might consider that.
Not too sure Richards would accept the LA captaincy, if offered, given his past experience in that role with some fans and media in Philadelphia. Of course, there doesn't appear to be any "Pronger" type personalities in the LA dressing room, so he might consider that.
No sure who the alternative would be, but I'd assume that LA would roll three A's for the remainder of the season.
I think you are both underrating Brown overrating JvR. Brown is not basically another Hartnell/Simmonds. Brown is a complete player who could play on the top line with Giroux (though, as you pointed out, maybe not long term because of his age/contract). JvR, on the other hand, is a young and raw talent. While he absolutely could be that top line winger you are talking about, he also may not turn out to be anything more than Brown is offensively (while IMO won't ever reach Brown in the rest of his game). I'd take Brown over JvR any day of the week.
I'm not underrating/overrating anyone. I know Brown is the better player, and I know he'll always be the more complete player. But like I said before, it's about constructing a team and allocating resources to positions that are needed.
We have other players that provide us already with what Brown would if he were here. They may or may not be as good individually, but the sum of the parts is definitely greater. We have no one, outside of Jagr and possibly Briere, that is capable of providing top line goal scoring ability. Jagr may not be here next year, and Briere's game may have fallen off.
I'm not underrating/overrating anyone. I know Brown is the better player, and I know he'll always be the more complete player. But like I said before, it's about constructing a team and allocating resources to positions that are needed.
We have other players that provide us already with what Brown would if he were here. They may or may not be as good individually, but the sum of the parts is definitely greater. We have no one, outside of Jagr and possibly Briere, that is capable of providing top line goal scoring ability. Jagr may not be here next year, and Briere's game may have fallen off.
That's all well and good, but at this point, JvR isn't that guy either and may never be. He MIGHT be someday, but he isn't now. Brown is the type of player any team would be lucky to have. Brown's cap hit is also lower than JvR's, leaving more room to go after a Suter or even that elusive top line guy you are talking about. I wouldn't be upset if this deal didn't get done, like I said, I like JvR, but if I were GM I'd be trying to work something out.
Also, if they would take less than JvR (like Read and some other stuff), I'd prefer to do that. But I don't think this deal gets done without JvR.
You're nuts man. What is not to love about Dustin Brown? If JvR turns out to be as good as him, I would be psyched. JvR may turn out to score more points, but Brown is a more complete player (and it is yet to be seen if JvR even does wind up outscoring Brown). I would be pretty shocked if LA dealt Brown to the Flyers if the deal didn't include JvR.
No thank you. One of the big problems with LA's team is that their 'captain' is playing like total crap.
Pass on Dustin Brown, let him wreck someone else's team.
You know what you are getting with brown, 50-60 point player who plays solid defense and on the pk,pp if needed.
do you think JVR cannot top those numbers? if you dont think JVR is worth more than that over the next 4-5 years you trade him.
Personally, i dont think an "upgrade" in playoffs of brown over JVR this season will mean the cup or not so I would much rather have JVR. I believe next season JVR goes on the top line with giroux and becomes a 60-70 point player, i mean he is still so young.
The media frenzy in bringing in LA's captain after they just brought in both Carter and Richards alone wouldn't be worth it. Brown draws a ton of power plays though, constantly at the top of the league.
I would keep JVR over Dustin Brown though.
Claiming that he "wrecks" the Kings is irresponsible though.
You know what you are getting with brown, 50-60 point player who plays solid defense and on the pk,pp if needed.
do you think JVR cannot top those numbers? if you dont think JVR is worth more than that over the next 4-5 years you trade him.
Personally, i dont think an "upgrade" in playoffs of brown over JVR this season will mean the cup or not so I would much rather have JVR. I believe next season JVR goes on the top line with giroux and becomes a 60-70 point player, i mean he is still so young.
Even if JvR is a 60-70 point guy (which I think he will be), Brown still is the better player. I'm not convinced Brown doesn't put up those numbers playing with Giroux though also. IMO, JvR has the higher ceiling and is obviously younger than Brown, but with all the complaints about defense on this team, why wouldn't you want a guy like Brown who puts up comparable points but plays much better defense?
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Originally Posted by GKJ
The media frenzy in bringing in LA's captain after they just brought in both Carter and Richards alone wouldn't be worth it. Brown draws a ton of power plays though, constantly at the top of the league.
I would keep JVR over Dustin Brown though.
Claiming that he "wrecks" the Kings is irresponsible though.
Haha, man if this trade went down I think the fix would be in for a Flyers-Kings Cup final.
*On Dustin Brown... I can confirm the Flyers are in on Brown as are the Rangers, but I truly think the Sabres are the favorite with the Leafs a close 1A. I will definitely follow this all day. I do believe this deal HAS to get done before Saturday night. I do believe Dustin Brown will not wear a Kings jersey again. At least I hope the Kings have the decency to do so.
But above all I believe this...I believe Dustin Brown deserves better than this. This guy has been your captain and leader for years. I covered him in the Olympics and the guy is a pure, solid hockey player and a straight up guy.
The Kings can say what they want, but the perception of a locker room power struggle between Mike Richard's Camp and Chris Pronger's camp, oops I mean Dustin Brown's camp is out there. How real it is was up for debate and should have remained up for debate. To make him suddenly available when you acquire Mike Richards close friend Jeff Carter could have been handled very differently...
I'm not underrating/overrating anyone. I know Brown is the better player, and I know he'll always be the more complete player. But like I said before, it's about constructing a team and allocating resources to positions that are needed.
We have other players that provide us already with what Brown would if he were here. They may or may not be as good individually, but the sum of the parts is definitely greater. We have no one, outside of Jagr and possibly Briere, that is capable of providing top line goal scoring ability. Jagr may not be here next year, and Briere's game may have fallen off.
You should save your breath. Certain fans just cannot grasp the concept of team-building.
We are the Philadelphia Flyers. We have the Broad-Street Bullies moniker. If we add a bunch of gritty hard-working 2nd line wingers to our team, we will be the cup favorites. Period. And our team will be fun to watch because of the hitting and the cycling!!
I don't see why we'd trade Voracek. He's just blossoming into a really good player - and he's having a huge impact on our team.
And there is no point trading for Bernier, he won't want to spend the next 8 years behind Bryz so why trade for someone who is bound to be disgruntled. They need to deal him to someone who needs a starter, e.g. Toronto, NYIsles
You should save your breath. Certain fans just cannot grasp the concept of team-building.
We are the Philadelphia Flyers. We have the Broad-Street Bullies moniker. If we add a bunch of gritty hard-working 2nd line wingers to our team, we will be the cup favorites. Period. And our team will be fun to watch because of the hitting and the cycling!!
Skilled players have no purpose in this game.
How would adding a guy like Dustin Brown not be considered team building? He's under 30 and has proven he can play in pretty much any situation. JvR on the other hand, is a potential power forward. He's not going to be out on the PK. He's not going to be a shut down forward. And he may not even ever be that PPG player everyone wants him to be. But yeah, it would be much better to hope he turns out to be that than have a guy who will probably score around the same amount of points and also play better on defense and play PP and PK and forecheck and be a team leader. Who the hell would want that?
How would adding a guy like Dustin Brown not be considered team building? He's under 30 and has proven he can play in pretty much any situation. JvR on the other hand, is a potential power forward. He's not going to be out on the PK. He's not going to be a shut down forward. And he may not even ever be that PPG player everyone wants him to be. But yeah, it would be much better to hope he turns out to be that than have a guy who will probably score around the same amount of points and also play better on defense and play PP and PK and forecheck and be a team leader. Who the hell would want that?
All that I would say is to be wary of calling a guy a great team leader when his current team (a playoff team) wants to trade him away.
Richards has struggled on his new team. Ditto Carter. Most of the time, when you're dealing with a captain, a guy who has been there for 5-6+ years, the GM of the trading team knows more about him than the acquiring GM does and it should be a red flag that a playoff team is willing to deal such a player.
Dustin Brown is an excellent player from my POV, but he is a 2nd liner. Wayne Simmonds is our Dustin Brown IMO. He actually has the potential to be more than Dustin Brown, but given what he is doing right now for our team, he's about equal.
Likewise, Scott Hartnell is another similar player. Guy wears his heart on his sleeve, is a total team leader, hardworking, etc. Hartnell right now is having a season that Brown could only dream of.
I like Brown, but he is just simply redundant on this team and he is not worth JVR. I'd like to see a healthy JVR and JVR in the playoffs again before I'd ever consider trading him for a 2nd liner grinder type.
This team is not going far in the playoffs unless some big changes happen and we get really lucky. No reason to mortgage the future to try and go at it this year.
All that I would say is to be wary of calling a guy a great team leader when his current team (a playoff team) wants to trade him away.
Richards has struggled on his new team. Ditto Carter. Most of the time, when you're dealing with a captain, a guy who has been there for 5-6+ years, the GM of the trading team knows more about him than the acquiring GM does and it should be a red flag that a playoff team is willing to deal such a player.
Dustin Brown is an excellent player from my POV, but he is a 2nd liner. Wayne Simmonds is our Dustin Brown IMO. He actually has the potential to be more than Dustin Brown, but given what he is doing right now for our team, he's about equal.
Likewise, Scott Hartnell is another similar player. Guy wears his heart on his sleeve, is a total team leader, hardworking, etc. Hartnell right now is having a season that Brown could only dream of.
I like Brown, but he is just simply redundant on this team and he is not worth JVR. I'd like to see a healthy JVR and JVR in the playoffs again before I'd ever consider trading him for a 2nd liner grinder type.
This team is not going far in the playoffs unless some big changes happen and we get really lucky. No reason to mortgage the future to try and go at it this year.
I could not agree with this post more.
I'd be willing to move Carle (UFA) and Read (valuable for his contract) for Brown because he can help now and in the future and is on a decent contract, but sending either JVR or Voracek to LA for him is a mistake, I think.
Moving Carle+read for Brown would be a steal for the Flyers. I don't think LA does it.
I don't think so either. It would only be if:
a) they want defensive depth for a playoff run now, and someone to help eat JJ's minutes (which Voynov might not be able to do)
b) they are looking to free up some cap space for the summer to make a run at either Parise or Suter (which was rumored, although I don't know how legitimately)
c) they are looking to alter the dynamic of the team
and
d) they want to make sure Brown goes out of the western conference.
All that said, though, I think it's highly unlikely. I was simply trying to set out the most I would move for Brown.
All that I would say is to be wary of calling a guy a great team leader when his current team (a playoff team) wants to trade him away.
Yeah, that's a good point. No team captain has ever been traded and that is proof positive that he is a bad leader. The US Olympic team is still kicking itself for giving him an A in the last Winter Games.
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Richards has struggled on his new team. Ditto Carter. Most of the time, when you're dealing with a captain, a guy who has been there for 5-6+ years, the GM of the trading team knows more about him than the acquiring GM does and it should be a red flag that a playoff team is willing to deal such a player.
Once again, I wouldn't really put much stock in the fact that he is on the block to take away from his leadership abilities. Especially considering the recent addition of Jeff Carter and the moves from the offseason.
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Dustin Brown is an excellent player from my POV, but he is a 2nd liner. Wayne Simmonds is our Dustin Brown IMO. He actually has the potential to be more than Dustin Brown, but given what he is doing right now for our team, he's about equal.
I'm sorry but that statement is just a bit much. Simmonds is a good player, no doubt. One of my favorites. But I'd be surprised if he ever reaches the 55-60 point season consistently, along with the rest of the skills Brown possesses.
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Likewise, Scott Hartnell is another similar player. Guy wears his heart on his sleeve, is a total team leader, hardworking, etc. Hartnell right now is having a season that Brown could only dream of.
Lol. Brown has consistently put up BETTER numbers than Hartnell throughout his career, and this one season, playing with arguably the best playmaker in the league and putting up similar numbers to what Brown has put up in the past makes him better? I'd be willing to bet that Brown on that line is putting up at least the same amount of points as Hartnell. And once again, what Brown "lacks" in offensive output he makes up plenty in the rest of his game. Are you going to put Hartnell out there with under two minutes left in the game for a defensive zone draw? Unlikely.
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I like Brown, but he is just simply redundant on this team and he is not worth JVR. I'd like to see a healthy JVR and JVR in the playoffs again before I'd ever consider trading him for a 2nd liner grinder type.
Fair enough, but again, a lackluster performance this year and the Kings may not be making this call next year. Now you have potentially a player with the same offensive output as Brown without the defense and intangibles of Brown for a million more dollars.
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This team is not going far in the playoffs unless some big changes happen and we get really lucky. No reason to mortgage the future to try and go at it this year.
Dealing JvR for Brown is not mortgaging the future. Brown is still young and is one of the best at what he does. Yes JvR might turn out better than Brown, but I wouldn't make it out like it's a done deal. It isn't like the Flyers would be trading JvR for an over the hill veteran with a big cap hit. It's an unproven (at this point) young kid with a high ceiling for an under 30s 55-60 point player with a manageable cap hit and defensive upside to boot. Since when is that mortgaging the future?
Last edited by DrinkFightFlyers: 02-24-2012 at 01:00 PM.
He said no chance right now. It was about Nabakov to Toronto, he said nothing is anywhere near imminent on that deal if it does even become a possibility.
