No it does not. It can be looked at and addressed in a number of viable situations.
That is the worst mentality to install within an organization, and will take a long time to work out of the system.
I for one with never except "truly sucking for a while".
It is a choice you make. If you want your own draft picks to be of a quality to amount to big long term gain they have to be lottery picks usually. Otherwise you are talking about signing free agents with no trade clauses and you have seen how that works for this team. Or you are talking about middle of the pack draft picks which are more hit and miss and have longer development trajectories.
The thing is the flames are about to leave so much talent on the table by allowing their best players to get too old. This trade deadline was a golden opportunity. I am not sure there is going to be another that will be as good. Hopefully there will be.
I want to see the flames good again and to have a good rivalry with the oilers. But if the tank empties out with nothing to show for it there will be a long drought.
As for what I said about the trades - look at what you would have had:
Couturier hodgeson aulie and maybe 5 plus first round draft choices. That coupled with your own draft choices which would hopefully be lottery picks over the next 2 or 3 years would put you in a much better place to be contenders down the road I think. You would have had a solid base of youth to work from and new young players pouring in. And these trades I mentioned were just basic examples. Much more could have been gotten for these players.
It is a choice you make. If you want your own draft picks to be of a quality to amount to big long term gain they have to be lottery picks usually. Otherwise you are talking about signing free agents with no trade clauses and you have seen how that works for this team. Or you are talking about middle of the pack draft picks which are more hit and miss and have longer development trajectories.
The thing is the flames are about to leave so much talent on the table by allowing their best players to get too old. This trade deadline was a golden opportunity. I am not sure there is going to be another that will be as good. Hopefully there will be.
I want to see the flames good again and to have a good rivalry with the oilers. But if the tank empties out with nothing to show for it there will be a long drought.
As for what I said about the trades - look at what you would have had:
Couturier hodgeson aulie and maybe 5 plus first round draft choices. That coupled with your own draft choices which would hopefully be lottery picks over the next 2 or 3 years would put you in a much better place to be contenders down the road I think. You would have had a solid base of youth to work from and new young players pouring in. And these trades I mentioned were just basic examples. Much more could have been gotten for these players.
How would we get those?
The trades you suggested wouldn't have happened according to many of the other teams fans.
How would we get those?
The trades you suggested wouldn't have happened according to many of the other teams fans.
People differ greatly on what can be gotten obviously. I find that the least trustworthy fans on this score are the teams own fans. Kipper to Philly for brysgalovs salary and term along with couturier is a steal for Philly. I would suggest futures would have to come to Calgary. Hodgeson went for kassian - obviously Iginla is better juice for a Stanley cup win than kassian. that is vans focus and should be. There would have to be some futures to Calgary in this one too.
I should say I am an edm fan. No bias. Doesn't mean I am right but I think this is all reasonable.
If Calgary could have gotten around trade clauses this team could have made trades as below and been so much better off for the future....
Iginla to van for hodgeson and futures and money exchange as needed
Kipper to Philly for brygalov couturier and futures
Bouwmeester just about anywhere for at least a young d - say to Toronto for aulie and cash exchange as needed and futures as required
Cammy and Jokinen for futures
By futures I mean whatever picks you think make sense. A rebuild means truly sucking for a while so your own picks are worth something. The future for the flames as is? Not looking great.
You may think these trades are garbage but that's not the point. Even if they are garbage they still leave the flames healthier in my view.
Money cannot e exchangedin trades in the NHL.
You are also trading players with NMC/NTC who have consistently said they will not approve trades.
You are also trading players with NMC/NTC who have consistently said they will not approve trades.
By money exchange I mean players with contracts that can be moved to make room. Re: Nmc and ntc I prefaced my first comment with getting the players to agree. They may not but players have seemingly been agreeing more lately. I think Iginla would go if asked. Same with kipper. They may say not but what players really want to die a slow death with the fans watching while they won't agree to go for the sake of he team? Sundin did it and it was not nice. I wouldnt want to pressure these greats to that extent but I dont think they will want to stay forever. Could be wrong - true
Last edited by Gabriel6676: 03-04-2012 at 05:46 PM.
Not arguing Iggys contribution to the Flames but based on his lackluster play in recent years I don't think he is the guy to lead a new young group. They wont move him so what do you do keep him as the captain as you try to turn the leadership over to younger guys?
Over what years?!
He had a stretch last year where he looked uninterested but still wound up 6th in points (horrible guy to have on your team).
This year, same thing. He had a stretch in the middle of the season where he looked uninterested, but look at the last 10-15 games. Last night he was our best defensive forward on the ice and scored a goal. In ANA the other night he dropped the gloves and had an unreal scrap.
Yeah...horrible guy for the youth to look up to. I mean he's only a future HOF'er, one of the most prolific scorers to ever play the game, and will drop the gloves with just about anybody. He never bad mouths other players in the media, his image league wide is outstanding, and he's respected by just about every person who follows the game.
Yup I sure wouldn't want him to be our captain...those young guys deserve so much more.
EDIT: Again, I still think he should be traded. But I'd never be upset to see him stay here till he retires.
There's not much on the UFA list that will help or come here. What about trying to get younger by looking at players on the RFA list that may be available via trade . Kane in WPG is rumored to be available.Not sure what if anything teams would want off this roster.
There's not much on the UFA list that will help or come here. What about trying to get younger by looking at players on the RFA list that may be available via trade . Kane in WPG is rumored to be available.Not sure what if anything teams would want off this roster.
I think you've answered your own question. If there's actually going to be a RFA of value, we're going to have to give up something, probably roster player if not adding a pick.
I think you've answered your own question. If there's actually going to be a RFA of value, we're going to have to give up something, probably roster player if not adding a pick.
Lateral move, if not just a bad one in general.
This. In today's game talented youth trumps in the value department. You need to draft your own Kane to not gut your roster. Feaster looks to have done well with Baertschi so far, hopefully he snags another beauty.
This. In today's game talented youth trumps in the value department. You need to draft your own Kane to not gut your roster. Feaster looks to have done well with Baertschi so far, hopefully he snags another beauty.
If sven is one of the guys to build around what players do we have as forwards who will be in his age group in 2-3 that arent this or next years picks. not too much with high end talent. In 2-3 years most forwards on this roster are 32+ we need to find a way to acquire some players in that 20-24 yr range to put with sven Backlund Reinhart. We always bury the young guys behind the old ones and wonder why they dont produce. It's time to reverse that trend and start retooling around the young players. Calgary for a long while has been where young guys go to see their careers die.
If sven is one of the guys to build around what players do we have as forwards who will be in his age group in 2-3 that arent this or next years picks. not too much with high end talent. In 2-3 years most forwards on this roster are 32+ we need to find a way to acquire some players in that 20-24 yr range to put with sven Backlund Reinhart. We always bury the young guys behind the old ones and wonder why they dont produce. It's time to reverse that trend and start retooling around the young players. Calgary for a long while has been where young guys go to see their careers die.
I agree...
All I'm saying is that acquiring young top six talent is not easy. We really only have two trading chips to barter with. Like I said before, I'm all for moving Iggy (though it would break my heart), where we disagree on is his value as captain of this franchise.
All I'm saying is that acquiring young top six talent is not easy. We really only have two trading chips to barter with. Like I said before, I'm all for moving Iggy (though it would break my heart), where we disagree on is his value as captain of this franchise.
Iggy is one of my favorite Flames but.... His value now is what he & Kipper could bring for the future. Looking at possible trade destinations for both and the depth charts for those teams there may be some guys to acquire that will move into the top 6 in 2-3 years. Keeping what we have and shuffling UFA's around 1. isn't going to change the fact we will be in a similar pos next year 2 it hurts the development of Sven Backlund etc. Moving these two vets & most of the dead weight Ufa's and one of jaybo or Gio for youth would be better . Keep Jokinen if you must but don't replace UFA's with more overpaid old UFA's try to use those spots for youth. I'd rather fight for 8th with youth than these old guys surrounded by new old guys.
Iggy is one of my favorite Flames but.... His value now is what he & Kipper could bring for the future. Looking at possible trade destinations for both and the depth charts for those teams there may be some guys to acquire that will move into the top 6 in 2-3 years. Keeping what we have and shuffling UFA's around 1. isn't going to change the fact we will be in a similar pos next year 2 it hurts the development of Sven Backlund etc. Moving these two vets & most of the dead weight Ufa's and one of jaybo or Gio for youth would be better . Keep Jokinen if you must but don't replace UFA's with more overpaid old UFA's try to use those spots for youth. I'd rather fight for 8th with youth than these old guys surrounded by new old guys.
Again...I agree.
When I talk about signing guys like Stoll I am assuming Kipper and Iggy are staying. But I'm all for trading Iggy and Jaybo...and maybe Kipper depending on Irving's development. Though you trade Kipper and this team is easily bottom 5 in the league.
When I talk about signing guys like Stoll I am assuming Kipper and Iggy are staying. But I'm all for trading Iggy and Jaybo...and maybe Kipper depending on Irving's development. Though you trade Kipper and this team is easily bottom 5 in the league.
Once you move those two Kipper may as well go. Go with Irving and add a reasonably priced veteran back up. We lose his contact and pick up assets.
Once you move those two Kipper may as well go. Go with Irving and add a reasonably priced veteran back up. We lose his contact and pick up assets.
I don't think we necessarily have to move Kipper. You move Iggy and Jaybo for futures/young top 6 talent and a couple physical top 4 dmen and this team can still be competitive the same way it is now. From the net out.
It's no secret to any fan of this team; The reason we win games is because of Kipper. Look what OTT did this year and how well they have exceeded expectations.
We don't have nearly as good of a prospect pool to pull from. But outside of Iggy and Jaybo we have some strong veteren talent to mix with some youth and one of the world's best goalies.
If you keep guys like Glencross, Jokinen, and Gio that is a good core of guys to lead the youth. I would not have said that about Jokinen a year and a half ago, but he is a great two way player now (great example for young guys). Gio is captain material in my books, he's no Iginla, but I can see him being a good leader.
If Irving truly is ready then awesome. But I wouldn't just pencil him in as our #1 to start next season. That could be a complete disaster. I would rather get younger but try to stay competitive at the same time. Keeping Kipper is the best way to do that IMO. As OTT has shown; A fresh coach, a couple of veteran leaders, and a lot of motivated youth can go a long way.
Although I'm sure it helps having Karlesson looking like Paul Coffey on a nightly basis.
I don't think we necessarily have to move Kipper. You move Iggy and Jaybo for futures/young top 6 talent and a couple physical top 4 dmen and this team can still be competitive the same way it is now. From the net out.
It's no secret to any fan of this team; The reason we win games is because of Kipper. Look what OTT did this year and how well they have exceeded expectations.
We don't have nearly as good of a prospect pool to pull from. But outside of Iggy and Jaybo we have some strong veteren talent to mix with some youth and one of the world's best goalies.
If you keep guys like Glencross, Jokinen, and Gio that is a good core of guys to lead the youth. I would not have said that about Jokinen a year and a half ago, but he is a great two way player now (great example for young guys). Gio is captain material in my books, he's no Iginla, but I can see him being a good leader.
If Irving truly is ready then awesome. But I wouldn't just pencil him in as our #1 to start next season. That could be a complete disaster. I would rather get younger but try to stay competitive at the same time. Keeping Kipper is the best way to do that IMO. As OTT has shown; A fresh coach, a couple of veteran leaders, and a lot of motivated youth can go a long way.
Although I'm sure it helps having Karlesson looking like Paul Coffey on a nightly basis.
Play Irving as much as you can then if possible move Kipper at the deadline. Some of the "core" has to be moved over time players can get comfortable with their lot in life.
Play Irving as much as you can then if possible move Kipper at the deadline. Some of the "core" has to be moved over time players can get comfortable with their lot in life.
That's what I was thinking. But only if Irving plays lights out and truely earns it. If Kipper can play the way he does now through to retirement then I would rather keep him. He'll always have us close to the PO's even if we're re-tooling, rebuilding...whatever you want to call it.
I wonder how many vets like Kipper would want to sit threw a mini rebuild. It's almost better for the orginization and the player like a kipper to be dealt if thats the road flames are taking. Maybe let him have a chance to go on a deep run with a team that can win a cup and have the flames restock the shelves.
I wonder how many vets like Kipper would want to sit threw a mini rebuild. It's almost better for the orginization and the player like a kipper to be dealt if thats the road flames are taking. Maybe let him have a chance to go on a deep run with a team that can win a cup and have the flames restock the shelves.
I agree . I hope Feaster or ownership has the nuts to ask the 2 no trade stars if they'd like to finish their careers vying for a cup. I would hope Iggy & Kipper still have that passion and aren't just content to play it out here. Only the "loyalist" of fans would think a cup comes here before they retire.
What's the point of threads like this? Without a miracle of Keith/Seabrook proportions on the back end, it isn't as if the Oilers are going to be anything more than what the Flames are today. I'm not sure about you guys, but neither franchise has much to really be happy about for the next few years...aside from watching Vancouver's annual flop in their quest for the cup April-June.
What's the point of threads like this? Without a miracle of Keith/Seabrook proportions on the back end, it isn't as if the Oilers are going to be anything more than what the Flames are today. I'm not sure about you guys, but neither franchise has much to really be happy about for the next few years...aside from watching Vancouver's annual flop in their quest for the cup April-June.
- Oilers fan.
Um, wow. I can't believe I'm about to do this, but I feel compelled to defend your team. The Oilers might have a Keith or Seabrook if Klefbom, Marincin, Teubert, or Plante turn into solid NHL defensemen. The Oilers future isn't as bleek as you make it sound
The Flames, however, have the opposite problem because we need forwards like RNH, Hall, Eberle, Lander, Hartikinen, Paajarvi, and Omark in the system. Sure we got great prospects for now, but probably not the same calibre as yours. Our top four defense is pretty good, but our depth defense sucks. Giordano, Bouwmeester, Brodie, Butler, and Smith are all young and good enough to carry the back end for another 5 years IMO.
Um, wow. I can't believe I'm about to do this, but I feel compelled to defend your team. The Oilers might have a Keith or Seabrook if Klefbom, Marincin, Teubert, or Plante turn into solid NHL defensemen. The Oilers future isn't as bleek as you make it sound
The Flames, however, have the opposite problem because we need forwards like RNH, Hall, Eberle, Lander, Hartikinen, Paajarvi, and Omark in the system. Sure we got great prospects for now, but probably not the same calibre as yours. Our top four defense is pretty good, but our depth defense sucks. Giordano, Bouwmeester, Brodie, Butler, and Smith are all young and good enough to carry the back end for another 5 years IMO.
Teubert or Plante?
I'd prefer it if you just bashed the Oilers man. As for Lander, Hartikainen, and Paajarvi are concerned- two of them have a ways to go to reach their potential as effective 3rd liners and the other looks like a tweener in the same breath as Andrew Cogliano or Kyle Wellwood (in his Toronto/Vancouver days).
RNH, Hall, and Eberle are already high-end forwards and may improve slightly, but it doesn't compensate for the ****-show hand we're dealt on the back end. Klefbom, Marincin, and Musil all look like good bets to be solid 3/4 options on the blue line, but you need stud top-pairing guys to make an impact in this league. The only way we'll have that is if Klefbom exceeds expectations and we draft Dumba (Murray isn't convincing me as of late).
Simply put, without 3-4 high end forwards (including a No.1 center) and 2-3 studs in defense/goal..you don't have a hope in hell of becoming a good team in this league.
Depth is overrated, its the aforementioned quantity of high end talent throughout your lineup that makes a difference. See the Chicago Blackhawks.
It can be looked at and addressed in a number of viable situations. 
