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Chicago/Ottawa/San Jose swap proposal

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Old
11-07-2004, 04:10 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
don't flatter yourself

how about going back to that orpik thread and actually answering the questions that were put forth to you...
I'm not worried that anything I wrote about Brooks Orpik coming back to haunt me

Quote:
what you say of sturm is true.. but what you say of ruutu is just ignorant.. what makes bouwmeester or horton or semin etc.. valuable then if they just racked up points and experience in meaningless games.. or nash, or zherdev etc... that doesn't make much sense..
Sure it does, what team did others play their backup goalie against if not the Blackhawks?


Quote:
and in terms of TRADE VALUE and POTENTIAL, you cannot deny either of ruutu. he has the POTENTIAL to become the best player in the league all around.. of course it's up to him to recognize that, so don't quote me and throw out some stats or odd ball observations..

for trade value, sturm couldn't touch ruutu
I'll take the real world over potential, the Sharks aren't going to trade their best forward for a guy like Ruutu. It doesn't make sense for Chicago to make the trade either because their problems are more than one guy can solve so may as well keep their best prospect.

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11-08-2004, 09:29 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
I'm not worried that anything I wrote about Brooks Orpik coming back to haunt me

Sure it does, what team did others play their backup goalie against if not the Blackhawks?

I'll take the real world over potential, the Sharks aren't going to trade their best forward for a guy like Ruutu. It doesn't make sense for Chicago to make the trade either because their problems are more than one guy can solve so may as well keep their best prospect.
1) Of course you're not worried about anything your wrote in the Orpik thread. You couldn't back up any of your "opinions" with anything more concrete that "that's what I believe". When confronted with proof of other very solid d-man who weren't playing in the NHL at 22, you disappeared.

2) So if a young player plays on a bad team - the stat's don't mean anything? Was it Ruutu's fault the Hawks were brutal last year? Hawks were decimated at key position by injuries, and were poorly coached. But somehow that detracts from Ruutu playing well? WTF is that?

3) I think you're fooling yourself if you think that SJ doesn't make that trade. I really like Sturm, but Ruutu has the potential to reach a whole nother level than Marco.

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11-08-2004, 10:04 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
1) Of course you're not worried about anything your wrote in the Orpik thread. You couldn't back up any of your "opinions" with anything more concrete that "that's what I believe". When confronted with proof of other very solid d-man who weren't playing in the NHL at 22, you disappeared.
No such proof was provided, you are dreaming. Colin White was one but he was a 49th overall pick and playing for a team light years deeper than the Penguins.

Quote:
2) So if a young player plays on a bad team - the stat's don't mean anything? Was it Ruutu's fault the Hawks were brutal last year? Hawks were decimated at key position by injuries, and were poorly coached. But somehow that detracts from Ruutu playing well? WTF is that?
I didn't write that that stats don't mean anything, just that they don't mean everything.

Quote:
3) I think you're fooling yourself if you think that SJ doesn't make that trade. I really like Sturm, but Ruutu has the potential to reach a whole nother level than Marco.
The reality of Sturm is just fine for the Sharks.

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11-08-2004, 10:08 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by bert
So Ottawa trades Havlat, who right now is the best of the three forwards and the most physical defensman with a huge upside. For the worst of the three forwards and a defensman that already refused to play for the Senators.

Whats with all of these Havlat proposals? He isnt going anywhere unless a player of equal value comes back the other way.

He was one of four right wingers that scored at a point per game pace and he is 23 years old. He has lots of value.
Exactly. Havlat did score a point a game and that was being third on the right wing depth chart behind Alfie and Hossa.

If Havlat is shifted to the first line LW and plays with Hossa and Spezza, his numbers go way up from last year. When he plays with top players like Elias in the World Cup, Mach 9 really takes off.

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11-08-2004, 01:41 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
No such proof was provided, you are dreaming. Colin White was one but he was a 49th overall pick and playing for a team light years deeper than the Penguins.
you never really replied to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
really? LOOK at the amount of players fighting for spots on that blueline.. 85 games as a 24 yr old.. have you looked deeper than that or just figured he should have played as many games as legwand has by now..

he played two full solid years in wilkesbarre, 01-02 and 02-03..

in 2001-2002, as a rookie, he was competing with rozsival, kasparaitis, laukkanen (making too much money to demote/sit for pens), ference, moran, pushor, jonsson (again too much $ i think), melichar, and wilson.. now, as a ROOKIE TO PROFESSIONAL hockey he isn't expected to shine in his first year, he was sent to the ahl to adjust to pro hockey.. it isn't wrong, it's the right developmental move to do..

now, in 2002-2003, he had to compete with tarnstrom, rozsival, bergevin, laukkanen (who i believe was injured later on), moran, jonsson, and pushor.. again, you have several for sures and a bunch of other maybes (focht, heins, ference, lupaschuk, and melichar (b/c of injury i believe - shoulder)... so he spends a 2nd year in the ahl, and even has a brief call up...

next year, he plays 79 games for the big pens, with dmen like tarnstrom, berehowsky (money), strbak, bergevin, melichar, focht and i believe boileau.. not as many players to beat out, yet he still beat out guys like luspaschuk, welch etc.. for a spot and played the entire season..

where has he gone wrong? where is orpik's true mistake, is becoming an nhler at 24 rather than 22 bad? or a failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful
If Craig Patrick has shown us Pens fans anything the past few years it's that he doesn't like to rush players. He rushed Robert Dome and completely ruined him and he's not let a player rush to the front of the line, with the exception of Fleury last year(who made it absolutely impossible not to cut him with his camp). Patrick doesn't believe in putting youth into the fire. Look at all the rookies had last year, and then look at their age. Orpik, Malone, Koltsov, Murley, etc...everyone had extensive experience other than the goalies Fleury and Chiodo. Be it four years in college(Malone), seasons in the AHL(Orpik, Koltsov), or a combination of both(Murley).

If Orpik is a bust I'd hate to see what a made prospect is considering he was the Penguins best defensive defenseman in almost a decade as a rookie...

Age is a terrible argument, especially for college players. Ryan Malone turned 24 mid-way through the season but was still only in his first professional season...
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
Orpik is an injury free Mark Tinordi with better puck control. A better more modern comparison is a similar game and skill level to Adam Foote. He is that good.

If you can give specifics on his game that make him a bust, please detail them. Claiming that he stayed in school (as he was told to do by Pens management....he actually left a year early against their wishes) is not a valid reason at all.



....oh, and of the 17 people drafted ahead of him, only 6 have played more games than him. The only one of those six that is a d-man is Klesla, who arguably should have been allowed more time to develop at lower levels himself (ps Jacket fans....I love Klesla, and would want him on my team. Just using a legit comparison. Not meant as a shot at him.)

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2000e.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
why is 24 bad ? why is finishing his schooling bad? why is an organization being patient bad? how many points should he have by now then for where he was drafted to not make him a bust
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
Ok so you are basing it on his age? He was 20 when he was drafted btw and seriously you dont have a clue as to his game.
I could lis a ton of late bloomers as well who are hardly what you would call busts, but instead I am only using that to point out the flaw in your age analysis and in turn I am basing my evaluation on actually having SEEN him play all last season.
This was a great pick by the Pens and I would suggest that you edjucate yourself further instead of basing it on his stats and age.
BTW, you need to keep in mind that he was on a 2 way contract and the Pens management couldnt afford to keep him up with the big club. That is why I said you should edjucate yourself on the individuals entire game and not his age or stats.
I SERIOUSLY want to know why you think he's headed towards busting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
It was Orpiks decision to stay in school after he was drafted and it was also a wise move to keep him in the AHL for his duration.
Your judgement of him is truly based on blind assumption as was already pointed out. Not that this means much, but I would be willing to bet that you are in the vast minority with this outlook. Yet with all of the great hockey minds and guys who really know thier stuff I would choose to listen to those whose opinions I trust and respect. And I doubt any of those would agree with your assesment.

As for the really good ones moving to the front of the lines that is exactly what happened with Orpik. Again you are assuming that he WASNT near the top of the prospect depth chart when he always was. And with the performance he had last season I would put him ahead of almost every other Pens D-man.
There is something to be said for leaving him in the AHL to learn the pro game regardless of your opinion. They felt he needed a little more time, didnt want to pay his million+ salary and wanted him to compete and recieve plenty of ice time at the pro level.
There just are so many underlying circumstances as to why he didnt play in the NHL full time until last year which is why I know that this opinion is based soley on stats. It is a faulty argument and quite simply a very wrong opinion (which of course you are entitled to).
Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
So was Martin St.Louis and Robert Lang. We could go on and on listing players but I doubt it would have impact on Moose as it seems he has dug his heels in on this one and wont consider the opinions from people who know alot more about the mitigating circumstances or who have watched Orpik closely.
Moose, Guys who really watch Orpik alot and are knowledgable about the Pens know far more about Orpik than yourself. I would suggest that you listen to those opinions considering you admittedly havent watched him play much and are basing your opinion on faulty reasoning and a flawed formula. If all these people are saying you are wrong that doesnt necessarily make it so, but at least SHOULD make you question your opinion and why you have that opinion. Use the knowledge of guys who are better edjucated on the subject than your own opinion which is based on circumstantial and faulty argument. Alot of guys on here know thier hockey and wouldnt get into a debate basing it on circumstancial evidence. And they certainly wouldnt do it without watching him play enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
I didn't write that that stats don't mean anything, just that they don't mean everything.
you pretty much called them meaningless, so IF the game is meaningless, how can the stats mean anything


Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The reality of Sturm is just fine for the Sharks.
but we can agree that there is no way sturm alone would land ruutu correct?

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Old
11-08-2004, 02:12 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
but we can agree that there is no way sturm alone would land ruutu correct?
Truest statement yet.

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11-08-2004, 02:59 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
you never really replied to:
It is difficult to work up a reply to people who think that the Penguins' defence was too deep for a rookie to crack.

Okay, he's the next Mark Tinordi, whoop-de-doo. So the comparisons I have seen are with guys who were drafted a lot lower than Orpik or in Tinordi's case, not at all.

Quote:
you pretty much called them meaningless, so IF the game is meaningless, how can the stats mean anything
What is the value of getting two points in a 5-3 loss? Steve Sullivan was a top scorer for the Hawks and got them two second rounders in return for a trade.

Quote:
but we can agree that there is no way sturm alone would land ruutu correct?
If you can see a precedent for a good team trading their best young forward for someone who might end up better, I would like to see it.

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11-08-2004, 08:02 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
It is difficult to work up a reply to people who think that the Penguins' defence was too deep for a rookie to crack.

Okay, he's the next Mark Tinordi, whoop-de-doo. So the comparisons I have seen are with guys who were drafted a lot lower than Orpik or in Tinordi's case, not at all.



What is the value of getting two points in a 5-3 loss? Steve Sullivan was a top scorer for the Hawks and got them two second rounders in return for a trade.



If you can see a precedent for a good team trading their best young forward for someone who might end up better, I would like to see it.

The value? Valuable learning experience and it shows that he does in fact have skill. Steve Sullivan was my favorite hawk. It was a salary dump move and ask any Nashville fan I'm sure they're very happy to have Steve on the team. Its a simple question. Would you trade Marco Sturm for Toumu Ruutu? If you think that Sturm alone has more value then Ruutu then I'm done arguing with you.

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Old
11-08-2004, 11:17 PM
  #59
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so then by your standards moose, ruutu at 40 something (whatever point total he had) points on the hawks means just as little as ruutu at 0 points for the hawks?

so AGAIN, what is horton's value, lupul's, zherdev's, etc... what does nash's big season mean then, if it's just for columbus right? so rick nash at 0 goals in a season has the exact same value/potential/reception etc..etc.. at nash does at 41 goals..

you my friend, are out to lunch.. stick to following the fitzgeralds and eastwoods please

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11-08-2004, 11:21 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK

If you can see a precedent for a good team trading their best young forward for someone who might end up better, I would like to see it.
you have the comprehension (or are showing) of a third grader.. i'm not saying it would make sense for san jose to do it, i'm saying they couldn't one for one..

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11-09-2004, 12:54 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
If you can see a precedent for a good team trading their best young forward for someone who might end up better, I would like to see it.
Off the top of my head, a 26 year old Joe Nieuwendyk for Jarome Iginla probably isn't a bad example..

EDIT: Shanahan for Pronger is another..


Last edited by Amen evil king: 11-09-2004 at 01:01 AM.
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11-09-2004, 10:45 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK

If you can see a precedent for a good team trading their best young forward for someone who might end up better, I would like to see it.
Someone who might end up better? Ruutu is already an immensly better player than Sturm. Sturm is shaping up to be a good third liner or poor second liner, Ruutu is already carrying his team. Sturm and a 1st probably wouldnt land Ruutu.

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11-09-2004, 11:33 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBob
Someone who might end up better? Ruutu is already an immensly better player than Sturm. Sturm is shaping up to be a good third liner or poor second liner, Ruutu is already carrying his team. Sturm and a 1st probably wouldnt land Ruutu.
wow. how many all-star games has ruuto been to? sturm had 41 pts in around 60 games. ruuto had 44 points in 82 games. how could you say a guy with 82 career games is better than someone who has been an all-star, and has 3 consecutive 30 goal seasons? sturm also wouldve had 30 goals last year if he hadnt broke his leg. why would the sharks want to trade sturm, anyway. they (in 05-06) will be contenders, and the hawks will not.

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11-09-2004, 11:35 AM
  #64
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To Ottawa: Jonathan Cheechoo
To San Jose: Tuomo Ruutu
To Chicago: Jason Spezza

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11-09-2004, 11:40 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupy
To Ottawa: Jonathan Cheechoo
To San Jose: Tuomo Ruutu
To Chicago: Jason Spezza

you'd have to get doug wilson to be wasted and smoking crack to do that. cheechoo was the sharks leading goal scorer last year. ruutu is NOT EVEN CLOSE to him. i can understand comparing ruuto to sturm, but comparing him to cheechoo is not realistic. unless you sent cheechoo to CHI, ruutu to OTT, and spezza to SJ, it wont happen.

two of the teams are set to win NOW, and it doesnt make any sense trade their superstars.


Last edited by X-Man: 11-09-2004 at 11:44 AM.
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11-09-2004, 11:44 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by X-Man
wow. how many all-star games has ruuto been to? sturm had 41 pts in around 60 games. ruuto had 44 points in 82 games. how could you say a guy with 82 career games is better than someone who has been an all-star, and has 3 consecutive 30 goal seasons? sturm also wouldve had 30 goals last year if he hadnt broke his leg. why would the sharks want to trade sturm, anyway. they (in 05-06) will be contenders, and the hawks will not.
1) Sturm has never scored 30 goals. He would of fallen a little short (27) if you pro-rate for injured games last year.
2) I think that most people would agree that Ruutu's offensive potential is substantially higher than Sturm's. Sturm does have many other area's he excels (PK) so he currently brings more to the table than Ruutu.
3) I wouldn't call Sturm a good 3rd/avg 2nd liner like someone did earlier. He does play a very complete game (like Lehtinen), and it would be very difficult for SJ to move him.
4) However, IMO, almost any team would trade for a guy like Ruutu who is on the edge of breaking out after having smoking final 1/3 of the season. This coincided with TR playing with actual NHL talent and getting more than 10 minutes/game. It's not like TR is a totally unproven (although very highly thought of) prospect who no one knows if he will produce or not.

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11-09-2004, 12:05 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by theBob
Someone who might end up better? Ruutu is already an immensly better player than Sturm. Sturm is shaping up to be a good third liner or poor second liner, Ruutu is already carrying his team. Sturm and a 1st probably wouldnt land Ruutu.
Sturm had six points in four games against Chicago and you didn't notice him?

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11-09-2004, 12:11 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lehtonen32
Off the top of my head, a 26 year old Joe Nieuwendyk for Jarome Iginla probably isn't a bad example..
The Flames were headed into a rebuilding mode at the time, SJ is headed in the other direction.

Quote:
EDIT: Shanahan for Pronger is another..
Both those guys are at a higher level than what we are discussing.


Last edited by mooseOAK*: 11-09-2004 at 12:18 PM.
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11-09-2004, 12:16 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Man
you'd have to get doug wilson to be wasted and smoking crack to do that. cheechoo was the sharks leading goal scorer last year. ruutu is NOT EVEN CLOSE to him. i can understand comparing ruuto to sturm, but comparing him to cheechoo is not realistic. unless you sent cheechoo to CHI, ruutu to OTT, and spezza to SJ, it wont happen.

two of the teams are set to win NOW, and it doesnt make any sense trade their superstars.
Sorry, but even as a Sharks homer you should be able to admit that the Sharks would be the big winner in this trade.

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11-09-2004, 12:20 PM
  #70
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well obviously its not realistic, and i wouldnt even want to trade cheechoo for spezza. i was just saying that was what would have to happen for the sharks to trade cheechoo.

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11-09-2004, 02:02 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lehtonen32
Off the top of my head, a 26 year old Joe Nieuwendyk for Jarome Iginla probably isn't a bad example..

EDIT: Shanahan for Pronger is another..
Bad comparisons as those were deals were playoff contenders were trading for established talent at the expense of prospects. In this scenario, the playoff contender is trading the establish player for the prospect.

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11-09-2004, 02:55 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Man
i wouldnt even want to trade cheechoo for spezza.
There's so much San Jose homerism going on this thread it is hard to pick which is worse: Sturm over Havlat or Cheechoo over Spezza.

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11-09-2004, 02:59 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
There's so much San Jose homerism going on this thread it is hard to pick which is worse: Sturm over Havlat or Cheechoo over Spezza.
Cheechoo over Spezza for sure, the other one would be good deal for the Senators.

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11-09-2004, 03:03 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taupy
To Ottawa: Jonathan Cheechoo
To San Jose: Tuomo Ruutu
To Chicago: Jason Spezza
...




I really dont see why Ottawa would want to go through with any of these.


Last edited by Bileur: 11-09-2004 at 03:06 PM.
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11-09-2004, 03:35 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Cheechoo over Spezza for sure, the other one would be good deal for the Senators.

Neither of these deals are anything Ottawa would even think about touching with a ten foot pole.

Havlat like i've said before in other threads is a 23 year old 30 goal scoring, PPG, winger, he's got some major wheels and plays a chippy game. Many sens fans see a bright future for him, and its very possible for him to be top 10 in points in the NHL in a few years.

Volchenkov is our only NHL ready defenseman under the age of 26, he is huge 6'1 230, not to mention the fact that outside of Chara he is our only defenseman who regularily loves to take the body. He is quite possibly the next Scott Stevens in terms of open ice hits, he has underrated offensive potential. Why we would want to trade him is beyond me.

Spezza... well you seem to agree that the sens wouldnt trade him so I wont get into it.

Now why whould the sens want to trade for a guy like Berard who doesent even want to play in Ottawa, the sens have had one of the top 2 PP in the past few years why would we want to go out and get a quaterback anyways? To play on the #2 PP?

Sturm, while he would be a very valuable asset, just dosent have the massive offensive potential Matrin Havlat has displayed. Many sens fans think Havlat will end up being more productive that Hossa, Alfredsson's production wont get much higher, and Havlat might still be able to move to LW once he realises how beneficial it would be for his career/progression, he hasnt been as bad on LW as people make it seem, heck he's amazing on LW on the PP. So while I would love having Strum (I think i'd play him with Vermette on a third line) he'd help our PK a lot as well as chip in some important goals, there is no way i'm going anywhere near this deal.

Plus like Tha ACE said we have a few prospects currently in our organization what are looking like very solid gritty forward picks (obviousely they arent as good as Sturm is right now and will take time to develop but we would rather take the chance of failure and wait for them than trade Havlat for something that is not fair value).

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