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Chicago/Ottawa/San Jose swap proposal

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Old
11-09-2004, 11:22 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
There's so much San Jose homerism going on this thread it is hard to pick which is worse: Sturm over Havlat or Cheechoo over Spezza.
i'm not a san jose fan and i wouldn't trade sturm for havlat.. just thought i'd throw that out there

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11-10-2004, 02:03 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
It is difficult to work up a reply to people who think that the Penguins' defence was too deep for a rookie to crack.
.
i was wondering if you cared to reply to the following, you have again handpicked what you'll reply to, but perhaps you missed this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
so then by your standards moose, ruutu at 40 something (whatever point total he had) points on the hawks means just as little as ruutu at 0 points for the hawks?

so AGAIN, what is horton's value, lupul's, zherdev's, etc... what does nash's big season mean then, if it's just for columbus right? so rick nash at 0 goals in a season has the exact same value/potential/reception etc..etc.. at nash does at 41 goals..
i was just actually looking for a response, and how you view these other players the way you view ruutu

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11-10-2004, 02:14 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero of Tragedy
Bad comparisons as those were deals were playoff contenders were trading for established talent at the expense of prospects. In this scenario, the playoff contender is trading the establish player for the prospect.
I didn't take those things into account, all he asked for was examples of a good team trading a top young forward for a player who is meant to end up better.

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Old
11-10-2004, 03:29 AM
  #79
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San Jose decided to let Damphousse and Ricci, two centers, go, because they wanted to make place for their young players.

Now, why would San Jose trade their best goalscorer, who hasn't even fully developed yet, for a center (Ruutu or Spezza), if they just gave centers away, because they don't need them anymore?

Ruutu and Spezza should be better than Cheechoo in the long run, but they aren't better right now. San Jose needs a goalscoring winger more than another center.
That should change when Michalek, Bernier und Kaspar have developed, but right now there is no need for a trade.


Why trade players like Sturm or Cheechoo, who exemplify the Sharks and are fan favorites, if you have success?

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11-10-2004, 03:32 AM
  #80
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Ok, some good comments and some bad one's overall in this thread. If anyone thinks that Sturm is as good as Havlat offensively, then they need to stop smokin weed. Sturm vs Ruutu in terms of offensive ability only is debatable (my opinion is that Sturm is definately a more dangerous offensive player RIGHT NOW), but it's pretty obvious that Ruutu has the "potential" to develope into a more dynamic offensive player than Sturm, although not quite as good as Havlat.

I've read some many times that Ruutu has a ceiling as high as Forsberg and how similar they're playing styles are, but that's such a joke. Ruutu will never be as good as Forsberg, period. And although they do have some similarities in they're playing styles, they have even more differences. Not trying to say anything bad about Ruutu, because he should develope into one hell of a player, but Forsberg? C'mon

What surprisingly hasn't been mentioned so far is the system these 3 guys play under and their primary responsibilities on their respective teams. While no system or coach gives free offensive reigns to players anymore, the person most handicapped offensively BY FAR is Sturm. I'm in no way saying that Sturm would put up as many points as Havlat if he was on the Sens, but if asked to play the same role as Havlat on the Sens, then Sturm would definately post a career year (same with being asked to carry the offensive load in CHI). I won't even mentioned how much better the Sens PP is compared to the Sharks. Havlat's primary role is to be an offensive force, Ruutu's is pretty much to learn the game at the NHL level and carry the torch for that team while at the same time being the #1 offensive weapon after the trading of Sullivan. Sturm on the other hand, is asked to play a much stronger two-way game than the other two. He grew up in perhaps the strictest defensive system in the NHL under Darryl Sutter, and it wasn't until this past season (in which he posted his best ppg average) that he was given his fair share of offensive responsibilities. He is, and will always be, the best defensive player and PKer of all 3 players. He's also the best skater.

Although Ruutu will probably be a more outspoken leader, Sturm will probably always be the best leader out of all 3, he has the best work ethic, and gives 100% every shift of every game (Ruutu is a high energy player, but he does take shifts off). Many of those are qualities that Havlat sometimes/often lacks and that Ruutu cannot compare to, although Ruutu "could" grow into an equal leadership role. These "intangibles" are infectios, and especially in today's NHL, are the difference between a Cup winner and a cup contender. You CANNOT underestimate the value of these mostly off-ice intangables.

In terms of potential and overall trade value, it's a toss up between Ruutu and Havlat, especially if Ruutu can come back with a consistant sophomore season. Despite that, SJ wouldn't trade Sturm for either player because of his intangibles, and as Hero already mentioned, becase management is expecting him to help make the transition of players like Goc, Ehrhoff, and it's plethora of young German goalies to the NHL as smooth as possible.

Someone else threw out the fact that the majority of playoff contenders would often sit their #1 goalie when playing the Hawks. From a statistical point of view, that definately had an impact on how many points Ruutu put up last year. Same with the fact that the Hawks, as a team, were playing "meaningless" games all season as they had just about zero chance of making the playoffs. It's not a huge difference, but it still is a difference, because it affects the way opposing teams play you as well as letting Ruutu develope in a much less stressful environment where there's less consequences for losing and the mistakes he makes. The Sharks and Sens on the other hand, were leading the league in points the majority of the season, opposing teams battled harder against them, and (especially for the Sharks) there was little room for error. One boneheaded play could cause your team to lose a game, and in such a tight playoff race, could cause your team to drop multiple playoff spots when all is said and done.

You guys can take your pick at who you want, but they're all different players who bring something different to their team.

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Old
11-10-2004, 08:58 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
i was just actually looking for a response, and how you view these other players the way you view ruutu
It is difficult to make a blanket statement, some players respond to challenges when given to them and others disappear (Havlat) but the thing is you don't know. My point was that Sturm has proven what he can do and is still young so why take a step backward by starting all over again with a 21 year old?

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Old
11-10-2004, 10:18 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
It is difficult to make a blanket statement, some players respond to challenges when given to them and others disappear (Havlat) but the thing is you don't know.
Sturm:
Career Playoff Stats
Season Team GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW GT Shots Pct
1997-1998 Sharks 2 0 0 0 -2 0 0 0 0 0 3 0
1998-1999 Sharks 6 2 2 4 1 4 0 0 1 0 15 13.3
1999-2000 Sharks 12 1 3 4 0 6 0 0 0 0 16 6.3
2000-2001 Sharks 6 0 2 2 -2 0 0 0 0 0 7 0
2001-2002 Sharks 12 3 2 5 -1 2 0 0 0 0 31 9.7

NHL Totals 38 6 9 15 -4 12 0 0 1 0 72 8.3

0.39 PPG


Havlat:
Career Playoff Stats
Season Team GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW GT Shots Pct
2000-2001 Senators 4 0 0 0 -4 2 0 0 0 0 7 0
2001-2002 Senators 12 2 5 7 0 14 2 0 2 0 20 10
2002-2003 Senators 18 5 6 11 4 14 1 0 2 0 52 9.6
2003-2004 Senators 7 0 3 3 -1 2 0 0 0 0 14 0

NHL Totals 41 7 14 21 -1 32 3 0 4 1 93 7.5

0.51 PPG

Its not like Strum is dominating Havlat in playoffs production, or even beating him. Havlat was not amazing last year, but he did score the series winner against the flyers the year before so any team who thinks he just disspears should watch out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
My point was that Sturm has proven what he can do and is still young so why take a step backward by starting all over again with a 21 year old?
Thats a somewhat good point but, the answer is easy, its because of the type of player Ruutu is and his potential. The thing is not whether or not Ruutu become Forsberg or whoever, the point is he'll be franchise player (IMO) a guy you can really build your team around, Sturm and Havlat arent. You may or may not take a step back for a season or two if you lose Sturm for Ruutu, but the future definetely looks brighter with Ruutu.

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Old
11-10-2004, 02:06 PM
  #83
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Why would Ottawa or Chicago be involved in any trade for Sturm?

Sturm is a 26 year old, good all-round, 2nd line winger who'll probably top out at 60 points. A guy you might trade a great prospect for, if you're going for it all.

Martin Havlat is no prospect. He's very much a PPG, soon to be All Star RW. He's chippy, plays average defense (that's why we have Schaefer for the PK). He is better than Marco Sturm right now.

Ruutu... Sturm is currently better than Ruutu. But is Chicago one piece away from contending? ... Hell no!
So the plan is to be slightly less mediocre now and give away a potential franchise player? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

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Old
11-10-2004, 03:36 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hattrickshockey2

I've read some many times that Ruutu has a ceiling as high as Forsberg and how similar they're playing styles are, but that's such a joke. Ruutu will never be as good as Forsberg, period. And although they do have some similarities in they're playing styles, they have even more differences. Not trying to say anything bad about Ruutu, because he should develope into one hell of a player, but Forsberg? C'mon
.
and this falls into the bad category. unless you do have some sort of crystal ball, you are simply wrong in stating what ruutu will or will not end up as, since you don't know

and what is the joke in saying that any player has a ceiling as high as forsberg? MANY players have immensely high ceilings but fail to realize their potential for many reasons, attitude/injuries etc... there is a difference in saying a player has a ceiling like forsberg and saying a player will become an equal to or better player than forsberg.. big difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
It is difficult to make a blanket statement, some players respond to challenges when given to them and others disappear (Havlat) but the thing is you don't know. My point was that Sturm has proven what he can do and is still young so why take a step backward by starting all over again with a 21 year old?
and yet you've made quite a few blanket statements with ease.. don't bring up havlat or sturm, i was curious about your response to those other younger players, horton, semin, zherdev, nash etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Why would Ottawa or Chicago be involved in any trade for Sturm?

Sturm is a 26 year old, good all-round, 2nd line winger who'll probably top out at 60 points. A guy you might trade a great prospect for, if you're going for it all.

Martin Havlat is no prospect. He's very much a PPG, soon to be All Star RW. He's chippy, plays average defense (that's why we have Schaefer for the PK). He is better than Marco Sturm right now.
.
i love it when a guy on here describes one player very basic and simple simply to get through the description, and then goes into great detail with better words for his own player..

how about:

martin havlat is no prospect, is mainly a one way offensive winger with an attitude

marco sturm is a very good two way forward, plays the penalty kill, has blazing speed, can get you 60 points, has leadership and can play in any role in the top three lines...


which one is truer?

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Old
11-10-2004, 03:46 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
which one is truer?
Neither, one is more specific.

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Old
11-10-2004, 03:50 PM
  #86
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well i know the answer is neither ... it just has always bugged me when one player is skimmed over in a description, and then the other player is described more in depth..

ugh

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11-10-2004, 04:53 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Why would Ottawa or Chicago be involved in any trade for Sturm?

Sturm is a 26 year old, good all-round, 2nd line winger who'll probably top out at 60 points. A guy you might trade a great prospect for, if you're going for it all.

Martin Havlat is no prospect. He's very much a PPG, soon to be All Star RW. He's chippy, plays average defense (that's why we have Schaefer for the PK). He is better than Marco Sturm right now.

Ruutu... Sturm is currently better than Ruutu. But is Chicago one piece away from contending? ... Hell no!
So the plan is to be slightly less mediocre now and give away a potential franchise player? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
exactly. chicago is starting to build a winner, and trading the future franchise player is not realistic.

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11-10-2004, 06:37 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
and yet you've made quite a few blanket statements with ease.. don't bring up havlat or sturm, i was curious about your response to those other younger players, horton, semin, zherdev, nash etc...
I view them in the same way I view Ruutu. Happy now?

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Old
11-10-2004, 06:41 PM
  #89
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as a clam

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Old
11-11-2004, 06:59 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
i love it when a guy on here describes one player very basic and simple simply to get through the description, and then goes into great detail with better words for his own player..
Really, because I love when a guy comes on here and tries to prove a point with my post... even though very little of what he says actually makes sense.

And Martin Havlat is a better player.



Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Sturm is a 26 year old, good all-round, 2nd line winger who'll probably top out at 60 points. A guy you might trade a great prospect for, if you're going for it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
marco sturm is a very good two way forward, plays the penalty kill, has blazing speed, can get you 60 points, has leadership and can play in any role in the top three lines...
Hmm, lets see...
- you've added leadership (which I will rarely discuss about a player -positively or negatively, because in most cases I don't know and neither do you.)
- you've added "blazing speed", well Jeff Lazaro had "blazing speed" too. Actually, just about every middle-sized euro has some sort of skating prowess (Sturm=speed, Havlat=agility). It was a basic point, that proves nothing if you're Jeff Lazaro and is a pretty common trait among Euro's. Was there really a need to bring it up?
- any role in the top 3 lines. Havlat was drafted as a centre, plays LW on the PP and a regular shift at RW. Do you want me to add that he has two eyes and a nose or would you just like me to point out meaningful differences?
- plays the penalty kill. I said "good all-round"... both special teams were implied.
- then instead of "top out at 60 points", which seems reasonable for a 26 year old who has never technically crossed 50... you write "can get you 60"?

Thanks for your help.

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Old
11-11-2004, 07:03 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
i'm not a san jose fan and i wouldn't trade sturm for havlat.. just thought i'd throw that out there
And 90% of the rest of the world would. Realistically there aren't a whole lot of players who are equal in value to Havlat, all things considered. Like I've said before...you don't trade away a player who is 23 and already at a PPG pace without a training camp.

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Old
11-11-2004, 11:58 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary

Hmm, lets see...
- you've added leadership (which I will rarely discuss about a player -positively or negatively, because in most cases I don't know and neither do you.)
well here i think it can apply as sturm's not only one of the veterans on the san jose squad, he will play an immense role with the other germans the sharks have rights to

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
- you've added "blazing speed", well Jeff Lazaro had "blazing speed" too. Actually, just about every middle-sized euro has some sort of skating prowess (Sturm=speed, Havlat=agility). It was a basic point, that proves nothing if you're Jeff Lazaro and is a pretty common trait among Euro's. Was there really a need to bring it up?
geez, don't nitpick.. you also through out "all most all-star" and "average defensively", with the latter being quite common, in the same sense this blazing speed / middle sized euro comment points out

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
- any role in the top 3 lines. Havlat was drafted as a centre, plays LW on the PP and a regular shift at RW. Do you want me to add that he has two eyes and a nose or would you just like me to point out meaningful differences?
well, he doesn't play center, and as i've read many times doesn't adjust well to lw. this of course is if you categorize your 'roles' as what positions he can play

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
- plays the penalty kill. I said "good all-round"... both special teams were implied.
that's fine, when i hear all around i just think the poster means defensively, physically, offensively etc.. i don't think of special teams.. no problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
- then instead of "top out at 60 points", which seems reasonable for a 26 year old who has never technically crossed 50... you write "can get you 60"?
alright, you got me. you predicted he'll never get over 60, i presume he'll round out into a forward that has the ability to get you 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Thanks for your help.
um.. sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting004
And 90% of the rest of the world would. Realistically there aren't a whole lot of players who are equal in value to Havlat, all things considered. Like I've said before...you don't trade away a player who is 23 and already at a PPG pace without a training camp.
that's fine, and i never meant any discredit to havlat... i know you didn't take it like that but nevertheless

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Old
11-12-2004, 10:42 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary

And Martin Havlat is a better player.
He's a better offensive player, if you are in a key defensive situation Havlat will be buried deep on the bench.

Quote:
Hmm, lets see...
- you've added leadership (which I will rarely discuss about a player -positively or negatively, because in most cases I don't know and neither do you.)
Sturm acted as either C or A for his team, so there is no need to guess.

Quote:
- you've added "blazing speed", well Jeff Lazaro had "blazing speed" too. Actually, just about every middle-sized euro has some sort of skating prowess (Sturm=speed, Havlat=agility). It was a basic point, that proves nothing if you're Jeff Lazaro and is a pretty common trait among Euro's. Was there really a need to bring it up?
Is there a need to compare a guy who played in the all star game to someone no one as ever heard of?

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11-15-2004, 02:44 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
He's a better offensive player, if you are in a key defensive situation Havlat will be buried deep on the bench.

Is there a need to compare a guy who played in the all star game to someone no one as ever heard of?
I would prefer Havlat & a 30 pt scoring Selke winner... over 2 Sturms.
It's just my preference that my special teams' guys actually be special.

Lots of players have played in All Star games because they were the best player on their team and not necessarily because they're one of the top 40 players in the NHL.

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11-16-2004, 08:50 AM
  #95
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i wouldnt even want to trade cheechoo for spezza.
don't worry it won't be offered.

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Old
11-16-2004, 12:44 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hattrickshockey2
.

I've read some many times that Ruutu has a ceiling as high as Forsberg and how similar they're playing styles are, but that's such a joke. Ruutu will never be as good as Forsberg, period. And although they do have some similarities in they're playing styles, they have even more differences. Not trying to say anything bad about Ruutu, because he should develope into one hell of a player, but Forsberg? C'mon ...

You guys can take your pick at who you want, but they're all different players who bring something different to their team.
That to me is the best assessment this thread has had. I think all three of those players are so different in what they bring to the table for their respective teams that a trade is highly improbable. As a Hawks fan I can tell you that in Chicago, TRs style of play (and his considerable talent) is a BIG favorite with the fans. If we had Havlat over TR, fans would complain that he's not tough enough. And if Sturm were there, frankly, I don't think the fans would take the "intangible" factor over the dropoff in both physical play and offensive output that Ruutu will end up putting up. If there's a question about Ruutu's effort level, I have never seen it nor have any Blackhawk fans made comment. He quickly became the best player on the team once he got the ice time he deserved. Be honest, if you were forced to line up with Scott Nichol and Travis Moen on the 4th line, wouldn't you be thinking, "what's the point?"?

And I think people are seriously doing Ruutu a disservice by saying he'll be like Peter Forsberg. Ruutu does not have the same kind of hands that Forsberg's got. But, his play is in the mold of Forsberg. I will go out on a limb and say TR will be a 70-80 point guy with more of an edge than Forsberg's got. I'll take that any day.

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Old
12-01-2004, 11:31 AM
  #97
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Is this arguemen for real? Why would ottowa want to trade for an injury prone prospect in Sturm who only has the potential to possibly put up 30 goals and "maybe" 70 points. Havlat will score forty goals and is a point per game man on Ottowa's second line. This trade will never! happen. It's like saying Spezza for Marleau straight up. A real trade might be Havlat, White, Schaeffer 2nd round pick for Marleau, Sturm.

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Old
12-01-2004, 05:43 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briman
Is this arguemen for real? Why would ottowa want to trade for an injury prone prospect in Sturm who only has the potential to possibly put up 30 goals and "maybe" 70 points. Havlat will score forty goals and is a point per game man on Ottowa's second line. This trade will never! happen. It's like saying Spezza for Marleau straight up. A real trade might be Havlat, White, Schaeffer 2nd round pick for Marleau, Sturm.
please... you had me at prospect

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