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Call up Zuccarello (RECALLED - 3/11)

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Old
03-01-2012, 11:05 AM
  #126
Tawnos
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Anytime you have a guy coming back and hounding the puck carrier its better than guys staying up ice in my opinion. I think he was the most frequent back checker I saw on the team last season. I do think he is weak on the defensive sideboards but since he is rarely on the ice for a goal against I think that can be improved and overcome.
I agree that him backchecking is better than him floating, but that isn't the point. He isn't fast enough to be the first or second guy back after forechecking, making him less effective at positional backchecking, and he isn't big enough to be to often separate players from the puck, making him less effective at creating turnovers. This is in the NHL, by the way. He's fine for the AHL.

No one is saying that Zuccarello plays the game wrong. He doesn't. His physical attributes are what hold him back and nothing else.

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03-01-2012, 11:11 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I agree that him backchecking is better than him floating, but that isn't the point. He isn't fast enough to be the first or second guy back after forechecking, making him less effective at positional backchecking, and he isn't big enough to be to often separate players from the puck, making him less effective at creating turnovers. This is in the NHL, by the way. He's fine for the AHL.

No one is saying that Zuccarello plays the game wrong. He doesn't. His physical attributes are what hold him back and nothing else.
gotta figure he has enough speed to backcheck. the offensive players have to stay onside. and the guy may be a step slower than many others, but effort and smarts are just as key. plenty of 'slow' guys play good defense.

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03-01-2012, 11:11 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I agree that him backchecking is better than him floating, but that isn't the point. He isn't fast enough to be the first or second guy back after forechecking, making him less effective at positional backchecking, and he isn't big enough to be to often separate players from the puck, making him less effective at creating turnovers. This is in the NHL, by the way. He's fine for the AHL.

No one is saying that Zuccarello plays the game wrong. He doesn't. His physical attributes are what hold him back and nothing else.

His isnt slow. He just doesnt have game breaking speed. He was almost always the first guy on his line back checking last season so somehow his so called lack of speed didnt stop him from doing so. I think his lack of speed and weakness on defense are both way over blown on this board. My guess is he is middle of the pack in regards to speed and he has never been a minus player as far as his hockey db stats go back.

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03-01-2012, 11:18 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
His isnt slow. He just doesnt have game breaking speed. He was almost always the first guy on his line back checking last season so somehow his so called lack of speed didnt stop him from doing so. I think his lack of speed and weakness on defense are both way over blown on this board. My guess is he is middle of the pack in regards to speed and he has never been a minus player as far as his hockey db stats go back.
+/- is not an indicator of defensive ability. How many times do we have to go through that. An okay offensive player playing sheltered minutes will have a good +/-. It's not an indication of anything, in this case. There are uses for +/-, but you can never use the stat well in a vacuum.

Your guess is that he's middle of the pack in terms of speed? I'm glad your guessing, but I'll tell you where he sits from what I've seen. On this team, I have a hard time thinking of a forward that's slower than him. Stepan and Richards aren't great skaters and are probably the worst of the group. Both have more speed than Zuccarello.

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03-01-2012, 11:25 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
+/- is not an indicator of defensive ability. How many times do we have to go through that. An okay offensive player playing sheltered minutes will have a good +/-. It's not an indication of anything, in this case. There are uses for +/-, but you can never use the stat well in a vacuum.

Your guess is that he's middle of the pack in terms of speed? I'm glad your guessing, but I'll tell you where he sits from what I've seen. On this team, I have a hard time thinking of a forward that's slower than him. Stepan and Richards aren't great skaters and are probably the worst of the group. Both have more speed than Zuccarello.
MZA was better defensively last year than Richards is this year. He's a hard worker and a goal scorer. He earned his shot. He could be a third line guy that's an actual scoring threat.

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03-01-2012, 11:27 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
+/- is not an indicator of defensive ability. How many times do we have to go through that. An okay offensive player playing sheltered minutes will have a good +/-. It's not an indication of anything, in this case. There are uses for +/-, but you can never use the stat well in a vacuum.

Your guess is that he's middle of the pack in terms of speed? I'm glad your guessing, but I'll tell you where he sits from what I've seen. On this team, I have a hard time thinking of a forward that's slower than him. Stepan and Richards aren't great skaters and are probably the worst of the group. Both have more speed than Zuccarello.

An offensive player playing sheltered minutes? For his whole pro career at all different levels? Huh?

He has never been a minus player. If a guy is horrible defensively I would think it would show up sometime in some form. He would have the lowest rating on some team at some point. How many goals against was Zooks on the ice for in his 3 games? Plus minus is not a perfect statistic but if he was a negative I'm sure we would hear about it. I would take Zooks in a race from blue line to goal line against Steps, Feds, Scott, Prust, Rupp, AA among others. I love fast skaters but once inside the blue line quickness is much more important than flat out speed. If Zooks cant produce at the NHL level than he cant produce but even as a rookie last season he produced the 3rd most points per minute on the team. Most folks that watch him would say he is a better more comfortable player this season. Why would it be so horrible to give him a chance to show if he can make it at the NHL level before losing him?

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03-01-2012, 11:29 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by mahonistan View Post
MZA was better defensively last year than Richards is this year. He's a hard worker and a goal scorer. He earned his shot. He could be a third line guy that's an actual scoring threat.
No arguments there, but it's not saying much. Richards is arguably the worst Rangers forward defensively.

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03-01-2012, 11:33 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
No arguments there, but it's not saying much. Richards is arguably the worst Rangers forward defensively.
I don't know if we are watching the same games Richie is a very reliable backchecker...

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03-01-2012, 11:37 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
An offensive player playing sheltered minutes? For his whole pro career at all different levels? Huh?

He has never been a minus player. If a guy is horrible defensively I would think it would show up sometime in some form. He would have the lowest rating on some team at some point. How many goals against was Zooks on the ice for in his 3 games? Plus minus is not a perfect statistic but if he was a negative I'm sure we would hear about it. I would take Zooks in a race from blue line to goal line against Steps, Feds, Scott, Prust, Rupp, AA among others. I love fast skaters but once inside the blue line quickness is much more important than flat out speed. If Zooks cant produce at the NHL level than he cant produce but even as a rookie last season he produced the 3rd most points per minute on the team. Most folks that watch him would say he is a better more comfortable player this season. Why would it be so horrible to give him a chance to show if he can make it at the NHL level before losing him?
You are talking about REALLY small sample sizes. Zuccarello produced the 3rd most points per minute? As if that's a stat that matters in this context, I'll counter it with one of my own: he scored 40% of his points in less than 10% of his games. So. What?

I'm not completely against giving him another shot. Players are allowed to prove me wrong and it wouldn't be a bad thing. I want the Rangers to succeed and that means the players on the team need to succeed.

As for the skating... well, Scott isn't really a forward, so I wouldn't include him. The only one that I might be inclined to agree with you on is Rupp. If you really think Anisimov, Prust or Fedotenko aren't better skaters, I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is.

Either way, I think if Zuccarello comes up and plays well, he still gets let go after this season.

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Old
03-01-2012, 11:39 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
+/- is not an indicator of defensive ability. How many times do we have to go through that. An okay offensive player playing sheltered minutes will have a good +/-. It's not an indication of anything, in this case. There are uses for +/-, but you can never use the stat well in a vacuum.

Your guess is that he's middle of the pack in terms of speed? I'm glad your guessing, but I'll tell you where he sits from what I've seen. On this team, I have a hard time thinking of a forward that's slower than him. Stepan and Richards aren't great skaters and are probably the worst of the group. Both have more speed than Zuccarello.
He's got good speed, just not crazy speed, and I agree that would have been a benefit for him getting out of tight spots offensivly, it's in no way a hinderance defensivly, and to say you cant think of anyone slower, means you don't know the NYR rooster very well when we have BB, Rupp, Feds and Mitchell. I'm not saying these are bad skaters, but they aren't as good as Zuccarello.

And if you don't want to look at +/-, look at his corsi instead: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67
Last season Zuccarello was the best in both regular corsi and relative corsi (exluding Dupont who played one game). In fact, try to find one stat that shows Zuccarello as a liability. (I actually know one, and will post if any of you can't find it)

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03-01-2012, 12:10 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
You are talking about REALLY small sample sizes. Zuccarello produced the 3rd most points per minute? As if that's a stat that matters in this context, I'll counter it with one of my own: he scored 40% of his points in less than 10% of his games. So. What?

I'm not completely against giving him another shot. Players are allowed to prove me wrong and it wouldn't be a bad thing. I want the Rangers to succeed and that means the players on the team need to succeed.

As for the skating... well, Scott isn't really a forward, so I wouldn't include him. The only one that I might be inclined to agree with you on is Rupp. If you really think Anisimov, Prust or Fedotenko aren't better skaters, I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is.

Either way, I think if Zuccarello comes up and plays well, he still gets let go after this season.
please explain the logic in not qualifying Zuke. Is he not still young? Is he not a AHL all star?

At the very least you retain his rights since his qualifying offer is low.

This season is not over. If a top 6 player gets hurt Zuke is going to get called up...............then we will see what he is made of

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03-01-2012, 02:22 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
If a top 6 player gets hurt Zuke is going to get called up...............then we will see what he is made of
If thats the case he would've been called up by now with Callahan injured.

Guess the poor hobbit has lost his chance with Torts.

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03-01-2012, 02:58 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by anofsti View Post
He's got good speed, just not crazy speed, and I agree that would have been a benefit for him getting out of tight spots offensivly, it's in no way a hinderance defensivly, and to say you cant think of anyone slower, means you don't know the NYR rooster very well when we have BB, Rupp, Feds and Mitchell. I'm not saying these are bad skaters, but they aren't as good as Zuccarello.

And if you don't want to look at +/-, look at his corsi instead: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67
Last season Zuccarello was the best in both regular corsi and relative corsi (exluding Dupont who played one game). In fact, try to find one stat that shows Zuccarello as a liability. (I actually know one, and will post if any of you can't find it)
I know one but I love him so much I won't post it. The people dogging him doesn't really seem to believe in stats all that much anyway. Could give a hint: what games online tells but hockeydb doesn't from the season H1N1 came and Gelius the preacherman went?

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03-01-2012, 03:27 PM
  #139
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Giving MZA these 2 games at his natural RW pos while # 24 is hurt is short sided .
It's hard to argue with the CULT OF TORTERLLA and what's he's brought to NYR this year but playing 2 slow skating goons instead of seeing at least what MZA can give you is brutal .
Be prepared to watch more trapping the next two games

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03-01-2012, 03:40 PM
  #140
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if your reasoning for wanting MZA is because he plays better defensively than brad richards you can't seriously think you have an understanding of hockey. brad richards isn't much of a defensive player, but he's also a huge upgrade offensively from MZA. MZA's skills can only get showcased in special teams and the shootout. he's been consistently below average as a 5 on 5 player.

the guy will never make it on this team. effort doesn't matter on a team based around forechecking and defensive play when you can't do either of those things effectively, and your offensive talent isn't so great that it outweighs that fact. give me a tough stu bickell or john scott at 4th line forward over MZA ANY DAY.

the people who want MZA are all the same people who think brad richards was a bust. completely based on stats and not actually watching and understanding the game. every game MZA played in last season he was completely overpowered and did not look like he belonged. i'd rather stick with somebody who has proven he can take the physical abuse.

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03-01-2012, 03:45 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by quentez View Post
If thats the case he would've been called up by now with Callahan injured.

Guess the poor hobbit has lost his chance with Torts.

If Torts had given him up totally he would have gotten less ice-time with CT and told Gernander to give other prospects more icetime. I saw 4-5 games last year with Zuccarello involved and he must improve his skating and build more muscles. I think and hope this year in the AHL have done him good.

NYR is the best defensive team in the NHL. I have to admire Torts for building that defensive and solid core. What I can not understand is why NYR wanted him so bad in 2010. Saether and Torts hopefully talks with eachorther about what kind of players they need. MZA wont grow 3-4 inches.

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03-01-2012, 03:50 PM
  #142
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I think he gets traded in the draft.

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03-01-2012, 04:19 PM
  #143
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as much as i want to see zuke's get a chance with this team, i dont know it will happen, but the big reason i believe they did not trade him at the deadline had to do with depth on the top 2 lines, in the playoffs if any one of our top 6 forwards goes down by injury zuke's would be the most logical player to fill in. With that said I just hope the rangers give him a shot in the final few games if for nothing else just to showcase him and give us fans taht like him a chance to see him in rangers blue one last time

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I think he gets traded in the draft.
I agree with you on that, maybe in a package for nash? lol j/k...it would not surprise me if he is brought back for at least one more year sort of a make it or break it

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03-01-2012, 04:41 PM
  #144
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If thats the case he would've been called up by now with Callahan injured.

Guess the poor hobbit has lost his chance with Torts.
nah I mean long term. Cally should be back soon

But fans should ask themselves Feds or Zuke or Richards RW?
yea I thought so

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03-01-2012, 06:08 PM
  #145
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the people who want MZA are all the same people who think brad richards was a bust. completely based on stats and not actually watching and understanding the game.
Not even close to being true about me. I want MZA to get a legit chance and I know for a fact I have never said a single negative word about Brad Richards. I not only think Richards is one of the few creative players I liked the way Brad and Zooks played together in the preseason.

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03-01-2012, 06:29 PM
  #146
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If thats the case he would've been called up by now with Callahan injured.

Guess the poor hobbit has lost his chance with Torts.
If thats true, and I agree that it is, I cant help but think Torts informed Sather he doesnt want anything to do with a smallish forward with an incomplete game....and Sather would've tried to unload him for some kind of asset.

And if thats true, it means the rest of the league has no interest in him whatsoever.

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03-01-2012, 06:34 PM
  #147
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We need him for shootouts. We've been really lacking in that department this year.

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03-01-2012, 07:25 PM
  #148
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Can't they use Zuke on the PP? Waive woywitka since he won't play anyway

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03-01-2012, 07:36 PM
  #149
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for ***** and giggles

struck a nerve eh?
I really don`t care. Just thinking it was a bit strange.

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03-01-2012, 08:41 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
Can't they use Zuke on the PP? Waive woywitka since he won't play anyway
When are expanded rosters allowed? My guess is Slats wants MZA to be given a chance but he lets Torts call the shots as coach.

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