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*Long Shot* PHI-WAS Proposal

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Old
11-22-2004, 12:42 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I swear cap fans are the biggest losers in all the world. After all, how one organization and a group of fans can be content with an incompetent GM who turned the team from contenders to pretenders must really enjoy losing. This was a GM who hired a coach that lost the respect of the players, made several questionable moves and still can't get the ship straightened out. Riiiight, flyers fans are idiots. At least our GM puts a competitive team on the ice year in and year out. Can't say the same thing for McPhee. If McPhee were anywhere else, his backside would be canned.



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11-22-2004, 12:43 PM
  #102
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Personally I wouldnt do the trade, because of the major pain in the arse it will be to get Ovechkin out of Russia. He might well make better money there than he could with the proposed rookie cap (depending on the CBA), and the Russians are going to play all sorts of games to give him up. Not worth the head ache. We keep a good player, potential star defenseman and pass on the potential superstar forward.

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11-22-2004, 12:45 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Mothra
Please list the "several questionable moves"

he hired the wrong coach...yes....but lets see this list
To start, how about letting Nick Boynton re-enter the NHL entry draft? I'd like to think that's a good place to start. How about dealing Sergei Gonchar. Defenseman to build your organization around and when you consider it, they let him walk for nothing. Or how about dealing Steve Konowalchuk for nothing. The heart and soul of your organization and you show him out the door for a player who is a journeyman at best and a prospect has never been healthy for an extended period of time. Do you want me to go on? I can go on and find more instances of the McPhee McDisaster in Washington.

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11-22-2004, 12:54 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
To start, how about letting Nick Boynton re-enter the NHL entry draft? I'd like to think that's a good place to start. How about dealing Sergei Gonchar. Defenseman to build your organization around and when you consider it, they let him walk for nothing. Or how about dealing Steve Konowalchuk for nothing. The heart and soul of your organization and you show him out the door for a player who is a journeyman at best and a prospect has never been healthy for an extended period of time. Do you want me to go on? I can go on and find more instances of the McPhee McDisaster in Washington.
Agreed on Boynton.....

Gonchar for nothing? Morrisonn is a fine young player and 2 picks (1st and a 2nd I think). Most would say GMGM did well on this trade seeing how Gonchar was headed to arbitration and had already told the team he would not sign a deal with them....you assesment is way off

Konowalchuk.....same as Gonchar. He wanted out and said he would not re-sign. They got what they could. It wasnt a terrible trade.....what do you think they could have gotten for him?

yes...please go on.....so far the only one even close is Boynton, a player he didnt draft and I guess didnt see as a player.....in hindsight it was a mistake for sure. Im sure Clarke looks at the Oates deal as a mistake....all GM's make them

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11-22-2004, 12:59 PM
  #105
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Hey, I have no qualms with any GM making mistakes. I know that Clarkie has made his share of mistakes. The only issue I take is how Flyers fans are referred to as being moronic. I was simply making a point that under the guidance of McPhee, the Capitals organization has taken a step backwards in terms of competitiveness. I'll state that the Caps organization has a fine stable of prospects. However, the one issue that the Capitals organization has (and this is something that can be stated throughout the years), is that their ability to develop that talent leaves a lot to be desired. Hey, I dig these discussions with sensible fans simply because it's an issue of point/counterpoint. By all means Mothra, continue with the point/counterpoint discussion.

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11-22-2004, 01:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Hey, I have no qualms with any GM making mistakes. I know that Clarkie has made his share of mistakes. The only issue I take is how Flyers fans are referred to as being moronic. I was simply making a point that under the guidance of McPhee, the Capitals organization has taken a step backwards in terms of competitiveness. I'll state that the Caps organization has a fine stable of prospects. However, the one issue that the Capitals organization has (and this is something that can be stated throughout the years), is that their ability to develop that talent leaves a lot to be desired. Hey, I dig these discussions with sensible fans simply because it's an issue of point/counterpoint. By all means Mothra, continue with the point/counterpoint discussion.
Well first I want to address your last remark....you say

"I dig these discussions with sensible fans simply because it's an issue of point/counterpoint"

but just a few posts ago you said....

"I swear cap fans are the biggest losers in all the world"

Do you consider yourself a "sensible fan? What is sensible about that?...what is point/counterpoint about that? It was rude and insulting. not Everyone is fortunate enough to have a team that has such a winning tradition and a owner that has always valued success over the bottom line. Just like every team....some fans are morons but most have a clue

that said....yes, the team has taken a step backwards. Much like the pre-Lindros Flyers. They (the Caps) made an attempt to be big spenders and it didnt work out....They had some decent regular season success but it must have been clear that they were going about things the wrong way and needed a different plan.

Im sure you can make some good points...but when you say things like they got nothing for Gonchar....and dont mention that he was going to walk for nothing (and they still got a vert good young player and high picks)...and you make blanket statements like the one I quoted above...it hurts your any real point you might want to make....

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11-22-2004, 02:25 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Mothra
Well first I want to address your last remark....you say

"I dig these discussions with sensible fans simply because it's an issue of point/counterpoint"

but just a few posts ago you said....

"I swear cap fans are the biggest losers in all the world"

Do you consider yourself a "sensible fan? What is sensible about that?...what is point/counterpoint about that? It was rude and insulting. not Everyone is fortunate enough to have a team that has such a winning tradition and a owner that has always valued success over the bottom line. Just like every team....some fans are morons but most have a clue

that said....yes, the team has taken a step backwards. Much like the pre-Lindros Flyers. They (the Caps) made an attempt to be big spenders and it didnt work out....They had some decent regular season success but it must have been clear that they were going about things the wrong way and needed a different plan.

Im sure you can make some good points...but when you say things like they got nothing for Gonchar....and dont mention that he was going to walk for nothing (and they still got a vert good young player and high picks)...and you make blanket statements like the one I quoted above...it hurts your any real point you might want to make....

I was hoping that that blanket statement about Caps fans would draw someone out with half a brain in their head who could defend the moves of their organizations. Much like the one Caps fan who called out Flyers fans for being idiots, I felt that as a Flyers fan, maybe it was time to address back that idiot and did so by providing some specific instances of the moves McPhee has made since being GM of the Caps.

As for the Gonchar trade, call it what you will, but once again, an unproven prospect for probably one of the best offensive defensemen in the game was a poor move at best. Washington could have and should have gotten more than just Morrison and two draft picks. While I believe there is value in first round picks, the prospect alone just doesn't justify the deal for Gonchar. As for Gonchar leaving at the end of season, nope, he couldn't have. The Caps could have offered arbitration. That could have prevented him from leaving.

As for the spending the caps tried, the only real player they spent money on was Jagr and that was Leonsis who did that. If you take a look at the Caps moves though, they let Robert Lang go for a first round pick and a prospect. Once again, another scenario in which the should have gotten more for one of the leading point getters in the league. I know he wasn't a free agent and it wasn't as if his contract was astronomical.

Fact of the matter is this. McPhee has drafted some talented youngsters. Ovechkin is a no-brainer. Fehr is going to be decent. Eminger should be ok. Semin is going to be a player. However, he should have been able to get more out of Boston for Gonchar. Why didn't McPhee ask for Samsonov? That would have been a little more fair. Why didn't McPhee ask for someone like Zetterburg or Datsyuk for Lang?

Yes, I understand that there is a rebuilding program going on in Washington. However, McPhee has done no favours to the Washington organization by dealing for prospects and first round picks for players of value. That's what annoys me about Washington. They didn't have to give up Lang, but they did. They didn't have to give up Gonchar, but they did. All what they needed was the right coach. And I don't know about you, but I still don't think McPhee got it right by giving the coaching assignment to Glen Hanlon. There were better coaches available.

Hey, if McPhee is under orders from Leonsis to do things on the cheap, maybe I can see why some of the moves were made. But my God man, McPhee gut the club of a lot of proven talent and did nothing but fill the club with prospects in return. If I were a Caps fan, I'd be livid over something like this.

As for the Flyers and getting Lindros, everyone fails to remember that Bob Clarke wasn't the GM at the time of the deal. Everyone also fails to remember that the Flyers did not include Chris Simon or Peter Forsberg in the deal and that it was arbitrator Larry Bertuzzi that threw them in the deal.

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Old
11-22-2004, 02:41 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
As for the Flyers and getting Lindros, everyone fails to remember that Bob Clarke wasn't the GM at the time of the deal. Everyone also fails to remember that the Flyers did not include Chris Simon or Peter Forsberg in the deal and that it was arbitrator Larry Bertuzzi that threw them in the deal.
Forsberg was always in the deal. Simon was added by the arbiter, to make up for the addiotnal first round pick that Quebec was supposed to get.

The pick that Quebec was supposed to get, the Flyers used to take Ryan Sittler (an all-time bust).

As an aside if Forsberg didn't want to stay in Europe an additional 2 seasons the Flyers wouldn't have made the deal.

When the Flyers were constructing the deal they decided that what they considered their 4 big pieces (Brind'amour, Recchi, Ricci and Forsberg) that they needed to keep two of them.

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11-22-2004, 02:49 PM
  #109
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I'm pretty sure that Forsberg was added to the deal by the arbitrator. I'll have to find the article, but I'm sure Forsberg was added because Bertuzzi ruled that the Rangers offer was superior to the Flyers deal and that he added Forsberg and Simon to even up the deal like the Rangers had.

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11-22-2004, 03:08 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I was hoping that that blanket statement about Caps fans would draw someone out with half a brain in their head who could defend the moves of their organizations. Much like the one Caps fan who called out Flyers fans for being idiots, I felt that as a Flyers fan, maybe it was time to address back that idiot and did so by providing some specific instances of the moves McPhee has made since being GM of the Caps.

As for the Gonchar trade, call it what you will, but once again, an unproven prospect for probably one of the best offensive defensemen in the game was a poor move at best. Washington could have and should have gotten more than just Morrison and two draft picks. While I believe there is value in first round picks, the prospect alone just doesn't justify the deal for Gonchar. As for Gonchar leaving at the end of season, nope, he couldn't have. The Caps could have offered arbitration. That could have prevented him from leaving.

As for the spending the caps tried, the only real player they spent money on was Jagr and that was Leonsis who did that. If you take a look at the Caps moves though, they let Robert Lang go for a first round pick and a prospect. Once again, another scenario in which the should have gotten more for one of the leading point getters in the league. I know he wasn't a free agent and it wasn't as if his contract was astronomical.

Fact of the matter is this. McPhee has drafted some talented youngsters. Ovechkin is a no-brainer. Fehr is going to be decent. Eminger should be ok. Semin is going to be a player. However, he should have been able to get more out of Boston for Gonchar. Why didn't McPhee ask for Samsonov? That would have been a little more fair. Why didn't McPhee ask for someone like Zetterburg or Datsyuk for Lang?

Yes, I understand that there is a rebuilding program going on in Washington. However, McPhee has done no favours to the Washington organization by dealing for prospects and first round picks for players of value. That's what annoys me about Washington. They didn't have to give up Lang, but they did. They didn't have to give up Gonchar, but they did. All what they needed was the right coach. And I don't know about you, but I still don't think McPhee got it right by giving the coaching assignment to Glen Hanlon. There were better coaches available.

Hey, if McPhee is under orders from Leonsis to do things on the cheap, maybe I can see why some of the moves were made. But my God man, McPhee gut the club of a lot of proven talent and did nothing but fill the club with prospects in return. If I were a Caps fan, I'd be livid over something like this.

As for the Flyers and getting Lindros, everyone fails to remember that Bob Clarke wasn't the GM at the time of the deal. Everyone also fails to remember that the Flyers did not include Chris Simon or Peter Forsberg in the deal and that it was arbitrator Larry Bertuzzi that threw them in the deal.
I am not talking about the Lindros trade at all....just the pre-Lindros Flyers....they took a step backward to eventually go forward...I am well aware it was Russ Farwell who was GM at the time....and he also did just about everything he could to not make the deal...I beleive his words were something like ..in a few years Forsburg will make people forget Lindros.....its was Snyders son who insisted.....but again...I am talking about the few seasons where Philly stunk badly prior to that trade

With the Caps cost cutting and afraid of a 7mil arbitration ruling for Gonchar....along with the pending lockout....as it looks now they would not have gotten anything for Gonchar. At the time of the trade it was one of the hottest threads on this board....and as I recall most thought it was a very fair trade for both teams...so you are probably in the minority when you say it was poor value. Morrisonn was getting a regular shift on one of the better teams in the NHL and didnt look out of place at all. Going after Samsonov goes against everything they were trying to do (get younger and cheaper) not to mention I doubt they could have gotten him......this is not EA sports trading

Maybe GMGM did ask for a Zetterburg or Datsyuk.....you dont know and neither do I. I would be shocked if Detroit would have made that move...as it was the reports were that the deal hinged on picking up salary for over a month. GMGM said he would not eat more salary.....they moved a 5 mil per year contract (with I believe 3 more years remaining) and got back a decent return...his 25 mil 5 year contract also disputes the "the only real player they spent money on was Jagr ". They out-spent other teams on Lang...and most thought it was way too much

I belive they did have to get rid of those players.....it was the perfect time to do it. They were going nowhere and needed a full house cleaning. They are now in great position for the next CBA

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11-22-2004, 03:08 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I'm pretty sure that Forsberg was added to the deal by the arbitrator. I'll have to find the article, but I'm sure Forsberg was added because Bertuzzi ruled that the Rangers offer was superior to the Flyers deal and that he added Forsberg and Simon to even up the deal like the Rangers had.
You would be wrong

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11-22-2004, 03:26 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I'm pretty sure that Forsberg was added to the deal by the arbitrator. I'll have to find the article, but I'm sure Forsberg was added because Bertuzzi ruled that the Rangers offer was superior to the Flyers deal and that he added Forsberg and Simon to even up the deal like the Rangers had.

Quebec got the Flyers 1994 #1 pick (Thibault) and Chris Simon to replace the 1992 7th overall pick.

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11-22-2004, 06:51 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Ever compared the Caps success with developing their players with the Flyers??
See
Don't know that I'd be making fun of educated fans of other teams if I were you Do you know who Scott Stevens is? How did Pat Peake's career pan out anyway??? How many times does Yogi Svejovsky have his name carved on the cup as a Capital??? I always forget the answer to that one....
Its pretty hard for either Yogi or Peake to raise the cup when both had career ending injuries (shattered heel and concussion problems), so you cant fault the capitals in screwing up their development...whats your point about stevens?

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11-22-2004, 10:39 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Quebec got the Flyers 1994 #1 pick (Thibault) and Chris Simon to replace the 1992 7th overall pick.
Yup. This is how it happened.

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11-23-2004, 01:47 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Hey, I have no qualms with any GM making mistakes. I know that Clarkie has made his share of mistakes. The only issue I take is how Flyers fans are referred to as being moronic. I was simply making a point that under the guidance of McPhee, the Capitals organization has taken a step backwards in terms of competitiveness. I'll state that the Caps organization has a fine stable of prospects. However, the one issue that the Capitals organization has (and this is something that can be stated throughout the years), is that their ability to develop that talent leaves a lot to be desired. Hey, I dig these discussions with sensible fans simply because it's an issue of point/counterpoint. By all means Mothra, continue with the point/counterpoint discussion.
I can't buy into your throughout the year their ability to develope talent leaves a lot to be desired. the Capitals last playoff team, 02-03, was a stable group of players that had been developed within the organEYEzation. Kolzig, Klee, Witt, Gonchar, Eminger, Bondra, Halpern, Konowalchuk, & Sutherby. Thats a third of the roster thru the age groups. It doesnt account for trading Carter and Allison for Oates. It doesnt account for trading for Johansson at the start of his 2nd NHL season and keeping him for 15 years.

now the Caps may not be the best team in the NHL at developing players, but fact that they have always been a team built around a core of quality home grown players and have one of the better records for qualifying for the playoffs over the last 20 years its pretty obvious that they are pretty solid.

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11-23-2004, 02:06 PM
  #116
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flyer fan 10 offers,"As for the spending the caps tried, the only real player they spent money on was Jagr and that was Leonsis who did that. If you take a look at the Caps moves though, they let Robert Lang go for a first round pick and a prospect. Once again, another scenario in which the should have gotten more for one of the leading point getters in the league. I know he wasn't a free agent and it wasn't as if his contract was astronomical."

the only real player? Olaf Kolzig(vezina trophy winner-all star, $6.25m) & Peter Bondra(nhl goal scoring leader-all star, $4.5m) seem like real players with real money spent on them.

Lang will be 34 next month with 3 years/$15m left on his deal. i think you are incorrect when you say "it wasn't as if his contract was astronomical". for a player of his age, with a 3 year commitment remaining and the near certainty of payroll restrictions coming in the new cba lang is expensive. for you to describe his contract the way you did suggests that you have been a fan of a big spender team for too long. You should check and see how many NHL teams don't have a single player making $5m a season.

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11-23-2004, 02:19 PM
  #117
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another quote from flyer fan 10, "Why didn't McPhee ask for Samsonov? That would have been a little more fair. Why didn't McPhee ask for someone like Zetterburg or Datsyuk for Lang?

Yes, I understand that there is a rebuilding program going on in Washington. However, McPhee has done no favours to the Washington organization by dealing for prospects and first round picks for players of value. That's what annoys me about Washington. They didn't have to give up Lang, but they did. They didn't have to give up Gonchar, but they did. All what they needed was the right coach."

1. are privy to information the McPhee didnt ask for Samsonov? why would boston have offered that?? do you know that mcphee didnt ask for Zetterberg or Datsyuk?
do you actually think that the Wings would have traded Datsyuk for Lang??? LOL.
did you see how little the leafs gave the rangers for Leetch? that was apparantly their offer to the Caps for Gonchar.

2. all they needed was the right coach??? you are showing how little you know about the Capitals and their problems. Last season McPhee was not given the budget to resign Ken Klee or replace him on the roster. Witt and Gonchar were the only NHL level defensemen on the ice most nights. There is nothing a coach can do with 4 minor league defensemen to make them nhl defensemen. Last year's Caps roster was a shell of a team. they were a top notch NHL power play unit and a top nhl goalie combined with 12 or more players with less than a full season in the NHL...players like Jason Doig, Dwayne Zinger, Darcy Verot. they had a $50m payroll with half the roster costing between the league minimum and $800k

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11-23-2004, 02:23 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by txpd
flyer fan 10 offers,"As for the spending the caps tried, the only real player they spent money on was Jagr and that was Leonsis who did that. If you take a look at the Caps moves though, they let Robert Lang go for a first round pick and a prospect. Once again, another scenario in which the should have gotten more for one of the leading point getters in the league. I know he wasn't a free agent and it wasn't as if his contract was astronomical."

the only real player? Olaf Kolzig(vezina trophy winner-all star, $6.25m) & Peter Bondra(nhl goal scoring leader-all star, $4.5m) seem like real players with real money spent on them.

Lang will be 34 next month with 3 years/$15m left on his deal. i think you are incorrect when you say "it wasn't as if his contract was astronomical". for a player of his age, with a 3 year commitment remaining and the near certainty of payroll restrictions coming in the new cba lang is expensive. for you to describe his contract the way you did suggests that you have been a fan of a big spender team for too long. You should check and see how many NHL teams don't have a single player making $5m a season.

Consider the source....some of his jewels include....

"cap fans are the biggest losers in all the world"

"dealing Sergei Gonchar...for nothing"

"should have been able to get more out of Boston for Gonchar. Why didn't McPhee ask for Samsonov?"

"Why didn't McPhee ask for someone like Zetterburg or Datsyuk for Lang?"

"Flyers did not include Peter Forsberg in the deal and that it was arbitrator"

"Ovechkin ....All fluff, no stuff"

"Much like the one Caps fan who called out Flyers fans for being idiots"

I add the last one because I didnt see anyone call Flyer fans "idiots"...yet he used that as his reason to be a jerk

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11-23-2004, 02:24 PM
  #119
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bring back bucky posts, "How many times does Yogi Svejovsky have his name carved on the cup as a Capital??? "

do you realize how stupid that question is??? how many times does rod langway or scott stevens or mike gartner or larry murphy have their names carved on the cup as a Capital? the same number of times as yogi has. what's your point?

what's your point about stevens?

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11-23-2004, 02:31 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
"Much like the one Caps fan who called out Flyers fans for being idiots"

I add the last one because I didnt see anyone call Flyer fans "idiots"...yet he used that as his reason to be a jerk
Check justdanickoftime's post at the top of this page. I missed it due to certain ignore list reasons.

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11-23-2004, 03:39 PM
  #121
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Check justdanickoftime's post at the top of this page. I missed it due to certain ignore list reasons.
Ah......even still though...he didnt call them idiots (that I saw anyway)

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11-24-2004, 08:20 PM
  #122
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Fact of the matter is that we're all going to disagree on certain things. I for one don't think that Ovechkin is worth the hype. As a hockey fan, I'm kind of insulted when players are being compared to the truly great ones. For instance, Ovechkin being compared to Lemieux is something that I consider as an insult towards Lemieux. Crosby being compared to Gretzky is another one. Every year, there is always some kind of hype about how big the next first overall choice is going to be. Personally, I'm sick of it. So, when I see stuff like "Ovechkin is so good" or "Crosby is the next Gretzky", yeah I'm gonna jump all over it and people who say rediculous things like that. When I said Ovechkin was all fluff and no stuff, I meant it. What did he ever do to even be compared in the same class as Lemieux? How many records has he broken a la Lemieux? Same with Crosby. Everyone talks about him being the second coming of Gretzky, but he's done nothing to warrant the comparison. When I pointed out Jeff Carter's career so far and compared it to Ovechkin's, wow, very similar. However, I would never compare Carter to being the next Lemieux or next Gretzky. That's the point in general I'm going to make with all the Ovechkin and Crosby crap. We all hold them in different value. Does it make me a homer? No, it makes me someone with an opinion. It's the same with the dismantling of the Caps team that took place. People can say what they want about how I said they got nothing for Lang or Jagr or Gonchar, etc....Truth of the matter is that they didn't get anything worth fair value for any of those players? Does it make me a homer or a troll? I guess some would say so. All what I stated was the obvious. As for the Caps, they should have been more competitive though. People can slag Jagr all they want, but when they dealt for him, he was the game's most dominant offensive player. They also knew he was moody and that he would only play when he wanted to. I saw nobody on the board, especially Caps fans, who slagged the organization for trading for Jaromir. However, things change. That's the point people. It's all about perception. Anyways, enough of me in this thread. I'm done with it.

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11-25-2004, 07:24 AM
  #123
Mothra
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Fact of the matter is that we're all going to disagree on certain things. I for one don't think that Ovechkin is worth the hype. As a hockey fan, I'm kind of insulted when players are being compared to the truly great ones. For instance, Ovechkin being compared to Lemieux is something that I consider as an insult towards Lemieux. Crosby being compared to Gretzky is another one. Every year, there is always some kind of hype about how big the next first overall choice is going to be. Personally, I'm sick of it. So, when I see stuff like "Ovechkin is so good" or "Crosby is the next Gretzky", yeah I'm gonna jump all over it and people who say rediculous things like that. When I said Ovechkin was all fluff and no stuff, I meant it. What did he ever do to even be compared in the same class as Lemieux? How many records has he broken a la Lemieux? Same with Crosby. Everyone talks about him being the second coming of Gretzky, but he's done nothing to warrant the comparison. When I pointed out Jeff Carter's career so far and compared it to Ovechkin's, wow, very similar. However, I would never compare Carter to being the next Lemieux or next Gretzky. That's the point in general I'm going to make with all the Ovechkin and Crosby crap. We all hold them in different value. Does it make me a homer? No, it makes me someone with an opinion. It's the same with the dismantling of the Caps team that took place. People can say what they want about how I said they got nothing for Lang or Jagr or Gonchar, etc....Truth of the matter is that they didn't get anything worth fair value for any of those players? Does it make me a homer or a troll? I guess some would say so. All what I stated was the obvious. As for the Caps, they should have been more competitive though. People can slag Jagr all they want, but when they dealt for him, he was the game's most dominant offensive player. They also knew he was moody and that he would only play when he wanted to. I saw nobody on the board, especially Caps fans, who slagged the organization for trading for Jaromir. However, things change. That's the point people. It's all about perception. Anyways, enough of me in this thread. I'm done with it.

As for what has AO or Jeff Carter done....I assume you mean at the NHL level. So the answer of course is nothing.........but Ovechkin has been playing in what many consider the second best league in the world since he was 17. I didnt see any Phantom playoff games last season but I hear Carter looked good. Correct me if I am wrong but that is the only real experience he has playing with men....AO was named best player at his position last season...in a league much higher then the OHL....Ovechkin also looked very good in the World Cup......so far this is their body of work....this is all we can go on....This is also a board that talks about hockey prospects. If seeing people compare unproven prospects to all time greats upsets you that much maybe you should move on....thats what happens here.

and on that note I have not seen anyone compare AO to 66.....what I have seen is scouts (and echoed from people here) say AO is the best prospect since Mario. To me there is a big difference in saying that and what you are accusing others of doing (actually comparing the players)....Crosby is a different story. The 99 comparisons are all over the place......Never having seen Crosby...and only 2 Ovechkin games you will not see me personally say any of that....and for all I know Carter could be the best of the 3...ive never seen him play

As for trade values and things along those line....Look around and see whats been going on....high salary players have not returned equal value in most trades in some time. Much depends on what the team is looking for.....if a team is looking to lower payroll and get younger why would they want to trade for another player making big $?

Not sure why you get into the first Jagr trade.....Of course most people thought it was a great trade. The Capitals were a playoff team that needed some scoring punch and they traded for the defending scoring champ without losing a roster player.....hindsight is always 20/20....but at least they tried it. They took a shot and it didnt work out....

back to trade value...who is to say whats "value"? If Jagr was traded to Philly for Pitkanen I assume you would still feel the Capitals did not get value in return.... You mention Samsonov in one of your posts....why would the Capitals have done that (or Boston!). The Caps were clearly starting over and decided now was the time to do it (considering potential lockout....and the organizational depth in terms of prospects). To me it was a smart move and good timing. They are not the first team to do this...look at the Flyers (an orginization I have tremendous respect for)....88-89 they play in the conference finals...they miss the post season 5 straight seasons while they completely reform the team....twice actually. They had already made numerous moves before the Lindros trade

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11-25-2004, 09:13 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Mothra
Agreed on Boynton.....

Gonchar for nothing? Morrisonn is a fine young player and 2 picks (1st and a 2nd I think). Most would say GMGM did well on this trade seeing how Gonchar was headed to arbitration and had already told the team he would not sign a deal with them....you assesment is way off

Morrisonn is not as great as some people think. He was a reach when he was picked and he is still looked at it that way. He was closer to a mid-2nd rather than a former 1st round pick. A good prospect, not a cornerstone of the future. If Morrisonn was as good as some people say he is, the Bruins wouldn't have given up a 1st AND a 2nd.

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11-25-2004, 09:41 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Morrisonn is not as great as some people think. He was a reach when he was picked and he is still looked at it that way. He was closer to a mid-2nd rather than a former 1st round pick. A good prospect, not a cornerstone of the future. If Morrisonn was as good as some people say he is, the Bruins wouldn't have given up a 1st AND a 2nd.
Not sure who is saying he is a "cornerstone"...he is...as I said a "fine young player".....that and the picks make for pretty good value for Gonchar....

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