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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - hardyvan123

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Old
02-26-2012, 09:44 AM
  #1
overpass
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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - hardyvan123

hardyvan123
Rank Player
1 Nicklas Lidstrom
2 Bobby Orr
3 Ray Bourque
4 Doug Harvey
5 Denis Potvin
6 Red Kelly
7 Eddie Shore
8 Chris Chelios
9 Larry Robinson
10 Al MacInnis
11 Scott Stevens
12 Slava Fetisov
13 Dit Clapper
14 Chris Pronger
15 Pierre Pilote
16 Brian Leetch
17 Brad Park
18 Sprague Cleghorn
19 Mark Howe
20 Scott Niedermayer
21 Earl Seibert
22 Paul Coffey
23 King Clancy
24 Larry Murphy
25 Eddie Gerard
26 Tim Horton
27 Rod Langway
28 Serge Savard
29 Ching Johnson
30 Sergei Zubov
31 Duncan Keith
32 Harvey Pulford
33 Borje Salming
34 Rob Blake
35 Lionel Conacher
36 Zdeno Chara
37 Valeri Vasiliev
38 J.C. Tremblay
39 Guy Lapointe
40 Alexei Kasatonov
41 Randy Carlyle
42 Marcel Pronovost
43 Brian Rafalski
44 Babe Siebert
45 Bill Gadsby
46 Dan Boyle
47 George Boucher
48 Butch Bouchard
49 Phil Housley
50 Doug Wilson
51 Harry Howell
52 Brad McCrimmon
53 Frantisek Pospisil
54 Jacques Laperriere
55 Jan Suchy
56 Bill Quackenbush
57 Adam Foote
58 Eric Desjardins
59 Hod Stuart
60 Babe Pratt
61 Derian Hatcher
62 Carl Brewer
63 Sylvio Mantha
64 Gary Suter
65 Kevin Hatcher
66 Allan Stanley
67 Jack Stewart
68 Gary Suter
69 Mike Grant
70 Bill White
71 Pat Stapleton
72 Vladimir Konstantinov
73 Kimmo Timonen
74 Shea Weber
75 Kenny Jonsson
76 Harry Cameron
77 Mattias Ohlund
78 Teppo Numminen
79 Nikolai Sologubov
80 Mike Green

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
Ebbie Goodfellow
Moose Johnson
Tom Johnson
Ken Reardon
Art Coulter
Lester Patrick

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Nicklas Lidstrom (1)
Chris Chelios (8)
Al MacInnis (10)
Scott Stevens (11)
Mark Howe (19)
Larry Murphy (24)
Ching Johnson (29)
Sergei Zubov (30)
Duncan Keith (31)
Harvey Pulford (32)
Randy Carlyle (41)
Brian Rafalski (43)
Dan Boyle (46)
Phil Housley (49)
Brad McCrimmon (52)
Derian Hatcher (61)

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Bobby Orr (2)
Eddie Shore (7)
Brad Park (17)
Tim Horton (26)
Bill Gadsby (45)
Bill Quackenbush (56)
Jack Stewart (67)

Players unique to this list
Kevin Hatcher (65)
Kimmo Timonen (73)
Shea Weber (74)
Kenny Jonsson (75)
Mattias Ohlund (77)
Mike Green (80)

Round Rank 1 Rank 2 Rank 3 Rank 4 Rank 5 Rank 6 Rank 7 Rank 8 Rank 9 Rank 10
Vote 1OrrLidstromHarveyBourquePotvinKellyShoreCheliosRobinsonFetisov
Vote 2PotvinKellyCheliosRobinsonFetisovMacInnisParkCoffeyClancy Pilote
Vote 3Al MacInnisScott StevensFrancis "King" ClancyPaul CoffeyChris ProngerBrad ParkBrian LeetchTim HortonPierre PiloteSprague Cleghorn
Vote 4Al MacInnisScott StevensChris ProngerBrian LeetchDit ClapperTim HortonBorje SalmingBill GadsbySerge Savard Earl Seibert
Vote 5Brian LeetchBorje SalmingMark HoweDit ClapperBill GadsbyScott NiedermayerGuy LapointeSerge SavardRod Langway Bill Quackenbush
Vote 6Mark HoweGuy LapointeScott NiedermayerSerge SavardBill QuackenbushRod LangwayEddie GerardJack StewartJacques LaperriereMarcel Pronovost
Vote 7Scott NiedermayerJack StewartGuy LapointeRob BlakeZdeno CharaMarcel PronovostLarry MurphyJacques LaperriereAlexei Kasatonov J.C. Tremblay
Vote 8Zdeno CharaAlexei KasatonovLarry MurphyRob BlakeHod StuartJacques LaperriereIvan "Ching" JohnsonJ.C. TremblayCarl Brewer Moose Johnson
Vote 9Zdeno CharaLarry MurphyRob BlakeEbbie GoodfellowErnest "Moose" JohnsonCarl BrewerHarry CameronSylvio ManthaAlbert "Babe" Siebert Ken Reardon
Vote 10Larry MurphyAlbert "Babe" SiebertDoug WilsonHarry CameronCarl BrewerSylvio ManthaGeorges "Buck" BoucherTom JohnsonKen Reardon Fern Flaman
Vote 11Sergei ZubovDoug WilsonHarry CameronSlyvio ManthaVlad KonstantantinovTom JohnsonHarvey PulfordKen ReardonAllan Stanley Pat Stapleton
Vote 12 Sergei ZubovHarry CameronVlad KonstantinovSylvio ManthaHarvey PulfordFrantisek PospisilPhil HousleyAllan StanleyFern FlanmanPat Stapleton

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02-26-2012, 10:04 AM
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Epsilon
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Well, this one is probably going to generate a bit of discussion.

While I disagree with Hardyvan's reasoning for ranking Lidstrom #1, he's pretty consistent with his argument across the board (i.e. applies the same standard to a lot of other players) on career value, so it's not like he's just making some fanboy pick there.

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02-26-2012, 10:21 AM
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Well, this one is probably going to generate a bit of discussion.

While I disagree with Hardyvan's reasoning for ranking Lidstrom #1, he's pretty consistent with his argument across the board (i.e. applies the same standard to a lot of other players) on career value, so it's not like he's just making some fanboy pick there.
Duncan Keith ranked 31st sure looks extremely inconsistent with the rest of the list. I guess I could somewhat understand some of the names under him if looking from some perspectives (that I highly disagree with), but I can't figure out ranking him ahead of Chara and Blake considering how they played in pretty much the same era and have superior careers no matter how you look at it.

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02-26-2012, 10:33 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Andros View Post
Duncan Keith ranked 31st sure looks extremely inconsistent with the rest of the list. I guess I could somewhat understand some of the names under him if looking from some perspectives (that I highly disagree with), but I can't figure out ranking him ahead of Chara and Blake considering how they played in pretty much the same era and have superior careers no matter how you look at it.
Sure I probably had Keith too high on my original list, I think i had acquired him in one of my fantasy keeper leagues and was being nostalgic about his 10 season where he was arguably the best player in the world across the board for regular season Norris, a great playoff with a Stanley Cup and having a great Olympics with the gold medal Canada team.

My list changed from day to day during the process of getting it in and I would probably slide him down in the 50-60ish range right now.

I'll probably have Lidstrom as my number 1 in the future after he retires and we get even more perspective on his career but I voted for Orr in round 1 (not that it made any difference...lol).

Also through the process I never looked back to my original list and took each round as a group and my mind was pretty fluid about guys.

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02-26-2012, 10:58 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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This was the list I was waiting for and I'm not disappointed at all!

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02-26-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Well, this one is probably going to generate a bit of discussion.

While I disagree with Hardyvan's reasoning for ranking Lidstrom #1, he's pretty consistent with his argument across the board (i.e. applies the same standard to a lot of other players) on career value, so it's not like he's just making some fanboy pick there.
I would say Bourque has a higher career value than Lidstrom.

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02-26-2012, 11:58 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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The guys on the list that surprise me the most are Eddie Gerard, Ching Johnson and Harvey Pulford.

How did these old-timers rate, considering the well-known view you hold of the modern players?

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02-26-2012, 12:02 PM
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Lidstrom should not be placed above Orr, especially when you have Bourque at 3rd and Harvey at 4th. Doesn't seem logical to me.

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02-26-2012, 01:19 PM
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Hardyvan has his views and I'm perfectly fine with that...

But considering this, Dit Clapper at 13th makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

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02-26-2012, 01:43 PM
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Of the modern players ranked highly, the one I have the biggest issue with is Brian Rafalski. He was an excellent #2 defenseman on multiple championships, but when he lost his HHOF partner, he was an abject failure as a #1. I just can't see how a guy who was a poor #1 defenseman in a 30 team league could be the 43rd best defenseman of all time.

The Lidstrom at #1 thing is an eye-raiser, but is it any more out of the mainstream than VI who ranked Lidstrom #10?

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02-26-2012, 01:45 PM
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Jonsson and Ohlund belong nowhere near the top 100 defensemen of all time IMO, let alone top 80, but other than that, the unique players are somewhat justifiable.

Edit: Actually, Kevin Hatcher is a hard sell too

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02-26-2012, 01:50 PM
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Would like to hear more about your choice of Boyle , I picked him very early by ATD standard in the ATD and still think he is underrated.Glad to see him there , even if I don't think he should be anywhere that high.

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02-26-2012, 01:52 PM
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Hatcher, Rafalski, Jonsson, and Ohlund shouldn't be on the list, but I'm intrigued by the Mike Green inclusion. He has the two consecutive Norris Trophy runner-ups and First All-Star Team selections, recorded the most goals by a defender in almost two decades when he scored 31 in 2009, and he put up fairly prolific plus/minus ratings in those two seasons despite being vilified for what was perceived to be indifferent defensive play. As of now he's obviously not a Top 80 defenceman, but if he puts together a string of additional high-quality offensive seasons he's an interesting and possibly defensible inclusion depending on how much an observer might value production from the back-end.

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02-26-2012, 08:26 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Of the modern players ranked highly, the one I have the biggest issue with is Brian Rafalski. He was an excellent #2 defenseman on multiple championships, but when he lost his HHOF partner, he was an abject failure as a #1. I just can't see how a guy who was a poor #1 defenseman in a 30 team league could be the 43rd best defenseman of all time.

The Lidstrom at #1 thing is an eye-raiser, but is it any more out of the mainstream than VI who ranked Lidstrom #10?
His being named as the best Dman in the 2010 Olympics swayed my list at the time, as well as his playoff scoring, kinda like Larry Murphy lite.

Honestly though outside of the top tier and into the 4th and 5th tiers the number of names and the order they appear in changes all the time for me depending on what criteria or information is being weighed.

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02-26-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Hatcher, Rafalski, Jonsson, and Ohlund shouldn't be on the list, but I'm intrigued by the Mike Green inclusion. He has the two consecutive Norris Trophy runner-ups and First All-Star Team selections, recorded the most goals by a defender in almost two decades when he scored 31 in 2009, and he put up fairly prolific plus/minus ratings in those two seasons despite being vilified for what was perceived to be indifferent defensive play. As of now he's obviously not a Top 80 defenceman, but if he puts together a string of additional high-quality offensive seasons he's an interesting and possibly defensible inclusion depending on how much an observer might value production from the back-end.

Even though I'm a big career guy his peak was just too hard to ignore and he did play well in 2 world championships as well.

Ohlund was a homer vote and he does play great shutdown D and has played in 4 Olympics for Sweden. Not much to choose from between him and Foote.

I can see why some would have him out though.

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02-26-2012, 09:17 PM
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After Orr and Potvin, the #1 picks in each round had retirement years of 2003, 2003, 2006, 1995, 2010, active, active, 2001, 2011, 2011

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02-27-2012, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
After Orr and Potvin, the #1 picks in each round had retirement years of 2003, 2003, 2006, 1995, 2010, active, active, 2001, 2011, 2011
I looked at each individual players case and wasn't too concerned about their birthdays, to give a complete picture I had plenty of less modern guys in top 3 picks of most rounds.

I'm not an ATD guy and quite honestly would be more comfortable separating guys from vastly different eras, like pre WW2 and post for instance.

My views on a fully integrated NHL is well known here and there has to be some balance in comparing guys from say early 06 to post 92 when it's a fully integrated NHL.

There is no formula for it but it's very hard to balance.

I also think some of the earlier guys went higher and weren't available to rank in rounds were I thought they would be and they might have gone higher than the guys that you presented with birth dates as my 1st pick rankings in each round.

I ranked each guy as I thought accordingly, although in some rounds it was really hard to separate guys in certain situations.

At the end of the day I was pretty happy with my votes although on certain days I might switch guys around a bit here and there.

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02-27-2012, 12:43 AM
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The thing I find most striking about Hardy's round 2 votes are no non-NHL Europeans in the top 10 in any round after Fetisov.

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02-27-2012, 01:03 AM
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The thing I find most striking about Hardy's round 2 votes are no non-NHL Europeans in the top 10 in any round after Fetisov.
In retrospect I might have been too critical in the voting for Alexei Kasatonov in voting and still am not sure where to rank him.

I did have Frantisek Pospisil in the top 10 in the last round and frankly thought that Suchy and Vasliliev went too high.

Ironically I was probably the biggest proponent for the two Russians ion the last round.

At the end of the day I think it's easier to rank the non NHL forwards than Dmen and wish there had been more video tape of certain players available like Suchy.

I think forwards are probably the easiest to rank and compare and Dmen slightly harder and goalies the most difficult of all.

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02-27-2012, 11:53 AM
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This was the list I was waiting for and I'm not disappointed at all!
yep. the less I say about this one, the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Jonsson and Ohlund belong nowhere near the top 100 defensemen of all time IMO, let alone top 80, but other than that, the unique players are somewhat justifiable.

Edit: Actually, Kevin Hatcher is a hard sell too
agree.

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Old
02-27-2012, 02:22 PM
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Der Kaiser
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I know you want to attribute great value to success in the global hockey scene, the modern hockey world. But I just can't justify putting Mattias Öhlund ahead of Lasse Björn or Rolle Stoltz. We're talking absolute legends in both the SEL and the national team. It's great to give glory to the defensive stalwarts of the game, but there are much better choices for Swedish defensive defensemen than Mattias Öhlund, Lasse Björn being one for sure.

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02-27-2012, 03:52 PM
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I know you want to attribute great value to success in the global hockey scene, the modern hockey world. But I just can't justify putting Mattias Öhlund ahead of Lasse Björn or Rolle Stoltz. We're talking absolute legends in both the SEL and the national team. It's great to give glory to the defensive stalwarts of the game, but there are much better choices for Swedish defensive defensemen than Mattias Öhlund, Lasse Björn being one for sure.
I'm aware of the legendary status of Bjorn but international hockey in the 50's and early 60's doesn't help his case here, at least not in my opinion.

Ditto for Stoltz who played longer.

Frankly watching Ohlund play tough against Iginla was always very impressive and he was my "guilty pleasure or homer selection".

He did play for Sweden in 4 Olympics in the "best on best" as well.

frankly depending on criteria there are probably close to 100 guys that could be seriously considered for the 60-80 spots as it's really hard to gauge and rank the value of somewhat lesser players from different eras and countries.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 02-27-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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02-27-2012, 05:40 PM
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No new lists today?

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02-27-2012, 05:56 PM
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No new lists today?
Coming in a few minutes...including yours.

Edit: Sorry, just realized Der Kaiser's was up next...yours is tomorrow.


Last edited by overpass: 02-27-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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02-28-2012, 12:40 AM
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Der Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I'm aware of the legendary status of Bjorn but international hockey in the 50's and early 60's doesn't help his case here, at least not in my opinion.

Ditto for Stoltz who played longer.

Frankly watching Ohlund play tough against Iginla was always very impressive and he was my "guilty pleasure or homer selection".

He did play for Sweden in 4 Olympics in the "best on best" as well.

frankly depending on criteria there are probably close to 100 guys that could be seriously considered for the 60-80 spots as it's really hard to gauge and rank the value of somewhat lesser players from different eras and countries.
I get your point, and I know your opinion.

I just think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in Sweden would rank Mattias Öhlund over Lasse Björn who led Djurgården to 9 Swedish championships and Tre Kronor to two WHC gold medals. He was inducted into the newly started Swedish Hall of Fame as the second inductee after Sven Tumba.

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