HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - hardyvan123
hardyvan123
Rank
Player
1
Nicklas Lidstrom
2
Bobby Orr
3
Ray Bourque
4
Doug Harvey
5
Denis Potvin
6
Red Kelly
7
Eddie Shore
8
Chris Chelios
9
Larry Robinson
10
Al MacInnis
11
Scott Stevens
12
Slava Fetisov
13
Dit Clapper
14
Chris Pronger
15
Pierre Pilote
16
Brian Leetch
17
Brad Park
18
Sprague Cleghorn
19
Mark Howe
20
Scott Niedermayer
21
Earl Seibert
22
Paul Coffey
23
King Clancy
24
Larry Murphy
25
Eddie Gerard
26
Tim Horton
27
Rod Langway
28
Serge Savard
29
Ching Johnson
30
Sergei Zubov
31
Duncan Keith
32
Harvey Pulford
33
Borje Salming
34
Rob Blake
35
Lionel Conacher
36
Zdeno Chara
37
Valeri Vasiliev
38
J.C. Tremblay
39
Guy Lapointe
40
Alexei Kasatonov
41
Randy Carlyle
42
Marcel Pronovost
43
Brian Rafalski
44
Babe Siebert
45
Bill Gadsby
46
Dan Boyle
47
George Boucher
48
Butch Bouchard
49
Phil Housley
50
Doug Wilson
51
Harry Howell
52
Brad McCrimmon
53
Frantisek Pospisil
54
Jacques Laperriere
55
Jan Suchy
56
Bill Quackenbush
57
Adam Foote
58
Eric Desjardins
59
Hod Stuart
60
Babe Pratt
61
Derian Hatcher
62
Carl Brewer
63
Sylvio Mantha
64
Gary Suter
65
Kevin Hatcher
66
Allan Stanley
67
Jack Stewart
68
Gary Suter
69
Mike Grant
70
Bill White
71
Pat Stapleton
72
Vladimir Konstantinov
73
Kimmo Timonen
74
Shea Weber
75
Kenny Jonsson
76
Harry Cameron
77
Mattias Ohlund
78
Teppo Numminen
79
Nikolai Sologubov
80
Mike Green
Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
Ebbie Goodfellow
Moose Johnson
Tom Johnson
Ken Reardon
Art Coulter
Lester Patrick
Players ranked highest overall on this list
Nicklas Lidstrom (1)
Chris Chelios (8)
Al MacInnis (10)
Scott Stevens (11)
Mark Howe (19)
Larry Murphy (24)
Ching Johnson (29)
Sergei Zubov (30)
Duncan Keith (31)
Harvey Pulford (32)
Randy Carlyle (41)
Brian Rafalski (43)
Dan Boyle (46)
Phil Housley (49)
Brad McCrimmon (52)
Derian Hatcher (61)
Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Bobby Orr (2)
Eddie Shore (7)
Brad Park (17)
Tim Horton (26)
Bill Gadsby (45)
Bill Quackenbush (56)
Jack Stewart (67)
Players unique to this list
Kevin Hatcher (65)
Kimmo Timonen (73)
Shea Weber (74)
Kenny Jonsson (75)
Mattias Ohlund (77)
Mike Green (80)
Well, this one is probably going to generate a bit of discussion.
While I disagree with Hardyvan's reasoning for ranking Lidstrom #1, he's pretty consistent with his argument across the board (i.e. applies the same standard to a lot of other players) on career value, so it's not like he's just making some fanboy pick there.
Well, this one is probably going to generate a bit of discussion.
While I disagree with Hardyvan's reasoning for ranking Lidstrom #1, he's pretty consistent with his argument across the board (i.e. applies the same standard to a lot of other players) on career value, so it's not like he's just making some fanboy pick there.
Duncan Keith ranked 31st sure looks extremely inconsistent with the rest of the list. I guess I could somewhat understand some of the names under him if looking from some perspectives (that I highly disagree with), but I can't figure out ranking him ahead of Chara and Blake considering how they played in pretty much the same era and have superior careers no matter how you look at it.
Duncan Keith ranked 31st sure looks extremely inconsistent with the rest of the list. I guess I could somewhat understand some of the names under him if looking from some perspectives (that I highly disagree with), but I can't figure out ranking him ahead of Chara and Blake considering how they played in pretty much the same era and have superior careers no matter how you look at it.
Sure I probably had Keith too high on my original list, I think i had acquired him in one of my fantasy keeper leagues and was being nostalgic about his 10 season where he was arguably the best player in the world across the board for regular season Norris, a great playoff with a Stanley Cup and having a great Olympics with the gold medal Canada team.
My list changed from day to day during the process of getting it in and I would probably slide him down in the 50-60ish range right now.
I'll probably have Lidstrom as my number 1 in the future after he retires and we get even more perspective on his career but I voted for Orr in round 1 (not that it made any difference...lol).
Also through the process I never looked back to my original list and took each round as a group and my mind was pretty fluid about guys.
Well, this one is probably going to generate a bit of discussion.
While I disagree with Hardyvan's reasoning for ranking Lidstrom #1, he's pretty consistent with his argument across the board (i.e. applies the same standard to a lot of other players) on career value, so it's not like he's just making some fanboy pick there.
I would say Bourque has a higher career value than Lidstrom.
Of the modern players ranked highly, the one I have the biggest issue with is Brian Rafalski. He was an excellent #2 defenseman on multiple championships, but when he lost his HHOF partner, he was an abject failure as a #1. I just can't see how a guy who was a poor #1 defenseman in a 30 team league could be the 43rd best defenseman of all time.
The Lidstrom at #1 thing is an eye-raiser, but is it any more out of the mainstream than VI who ranked Lidstrom #10?
Jonsson and Ohlund belong nowhere near the top 100 defensemen of all time IMO, let alone top 80, but other than that, the unique players are somewhat justifiable.
Would like to hear more about your choice of Boyle , I picked him very early by ATD standard in the ATD and still think he is underrated.Glad to see him there , even if I don't think he should be anywhere that high.
Hatcher, Rafalski, Jonsson, and Ohlund shouldn't be on the list, but I'm intrigued by the Mike Green inclusion. He has the two consecutive Norris Trophy runner-ups and First All-Star Team selections, recorded the most goals by a defender in almost two decades when he scored 31 in 2009, and he put up fairly prolific plus/minus ratings in those two seasons despite being vilified for what was perceived to be indifferent defensive play. As of now he's obviously not a Top 80 defenceman, but if he puts together a string of additional high-quality offensive seasons he's an interesting and possibly defensible inclusion depending on how much an observer might value production from the back-end.
Of the modern players ranked highly, the one I have the biggest issue with is Brian Rafalski. He was an excellent #2 defenseman on multiple championships, but when he lost his HHOF partner, he was an abject failure as a #1. I just can't see how a guy who was a poor #1 defenseman in a 30 team league could be the 43rd best defenseman of all time.
The Lidstrom at #1 thing is an eye-raiser, but is it any more out of the mainstream than VI who ranked Lidstrom #10?
His being named as the best Dman in the 2010 Olympics swayed my list at the time, as well as his playoff scoring, kinda like Larry Murphy lite.
Honestly though outside of the top tier and into the 4th and 5th tiers the number of names and the order they appear in changes all the time for me depending on what criteria or information is being weighed.
Hatcher, Rafalski, Jonsson, and Ohlund shouldn't be on the list, but I'm intrigued by the Mike Green inclusion. He has the two consecutive Norris Trophy runner-ups and First All-Star Team selections, recorded the most goals by a defender in almost two decades when he scored 31 in 2009, and he put up fairly prolific plus/minus ratings in those two seasons despite being vilified for what was perceived to be indifferent defensive play. As of now he's obviously not a Top 80 defenceman, but if he puts together a string of additional high-quality offensive seasons he's an interesting and possibly defensible inclusion depending on how much an observer might value production from the back-end.
Even though I'm a big career guy his peak was just too hard to ignore and he did play well in 2 world championships as well.
Ohlund was a homer vote and he does play great shutdown D and has played in 4 Olympics for Sweden. Not much to choose from between him and Foote.
After Orr and Potvin, the #1 picks in each round had retirement years of 2003, 2003, 2006, 1995, 2010, active, active, 2001, 2011, 2011
I looked at each individual players case and wasn't too concerned about their birthdays, to give a complete picture I had plenty of less modern guys in top 3 picks of most rounds.
I'm not an ATD guy and quite honestly would be more comfortable separating guys from vastly different eras, like pre WW2 and post for instance.
My views on a fully integrated NHL is well known here and there has to be some balance in comparing guys from say early 06 to post 92 when it's a fully integrated NHL.
There is no formula for it but it's very hard to balance.
I also think some of the earlier guys went higher and weren't available to rank in rounds were I thought they would be and they might have gone higher than the guys that you presented with birth dates as my 1st pick rankings in each round.
I ranked each guy as I thought accordingly, although in some rounds it was really hard to separate guys in certain situations.
At the end of the day I was pretty happy with my votes although on certain days I might switch guys around a bit here and there.
The thing I find most striking about Hardy's round 2 votes are no non-NHL Europeans in the top 10 in any round after Fetisov.
In retrospect I might have been too critical in the voting for Alexei Kasatonov in voting and still am not sure where to rank him.
I did have Frantisek Pospisil in the top 10 in the last round and frankly thought that Suchy and Vasliliev went too high.
Ironically I was probably the biggest proponent for the two Russians ion the last round.
At the end of the day I think it's easier to rank the non NHL forwards than Dmen and wish there had been more video tape of certain players available like Suchy.
I think forwards are probably the easiest to rank and compare and Dmen slightly harder and goalies the most difficult of all.
This was the list I was waiting for and I'm not disappointed at all!
yep. the less I say about this one, the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
Jonsson and Ohlund belong nowhere near the top 100 defensemen of all time IMO, let alone top 80, but other than that, the unique players are somewhat justifiable.
I know you want to attribute great value to success in the global hockey scene, the modern hockey world. But I just can't justify putting Mattias Öhlund ahead of Lasse Björn or Rolle Stoltz. We're talking absolute legends in both the SEL and the national team. It's great to give glory to the defensive stalwarts of the game, but there are much better choices for Swedish defensive defensemen than Mattias Öhlund, Lasse Björn being one for sure.
I know you want to attribute great value to success in the global hockey scene, the modern hockey world. But I just can't justify putting Mattias Öhlund ahead of Lasse Björn or Rolle Stoltz. We're talking absolute legends in both the SEL and the national team. It's great to give glory to the defensive stalwarts of the game, but there are much better choices for Swedish defensive defensemen than Mattias Öhlund, Lasse Björn being one for sure.
I'm aware of the legendary status of Bjorn but international hockey in the 50's and early 60's doesn't help his case here, at least not in my opinion.
Ditto for Stoltz who played longer.
Frankly watching Ohlund play tough against Iginla was always very impressive and he was my "guilty pleasure or homer selection".
He did play for Sweden in 4 Olympics in the "best on best" as well.
frankly depending on criteria there are probably close to 100 guys that could be seriously considered for the 60-80 spots as it's really hard to gauge and rank the value of somewhat lesser players from different eras and countries.
Last edited by Hardyvan123: 02-27-2012 at 03:57 PM.
I'm aware of the legendary status of Bjorn but international hockey in the 50's and early 60's doesn't help his case here, at least not in my opinion.
Ditto for Stoltz who played longer.
Frankly watching Ohlund play tough against Iginla was always very impressive and he was my "guilty pleasure or homer selection".
He did play for Sweden in 4 Olympics in the "best on best" as well.
frankly depending on criteria there are probably close to 100 guys that could be seriously considered for the 60-80 spots as it's really hard to gauge and rank the value of somewhat lesser players from different eras and countries.
I get your point, and I know your opinion.
I just think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in Sweden would rank Mattias Öhlund over Lasse Björn who led Djurgården to 9 Swedish championships and Tre Kronor to two WHC gold medals. He was inducted into the newly started Swedish Hall of Fame as the second inductee after Sven Tumba.
