Considering player evaluation has been a major flaws of the Gainey/Gauthier era and that we actually already have somebody pretty good at evaluating players...... How about Trevor Timmins? Would need to be surrounded, but I think he could help a ton in evaluating trades and po scouting in general.
Phillipe Cantin's article about Roy in la Presse today really drives home what annoys me about the whole Roy-to-the-Habs debate. He talks about a "spark", about his "authenticity", about the "date with history"... and not at all about coaching.
(Of course, it's not the first time the media evaluate something seemingly based on how good a story it would make and how it would make their job easier and more relevant. Sometimes I wonder if Gainey and Gauth)
But this is my problem with this whole thing. We hear is nothing about whether he is a suitable coach tactically, how well he understands system, whether he can do puck transition that doesn't involve just pushing the puck and chasing it, whether he understands scorers rather than grinders, whether he understands match-ups, bench management, faceoff locations... We don't get any of that.
What we get is lots of talk about "passion", "emotion", imposing "respect", "the tradition of the Habs", being a "winner"... y'know, exactly the same stuff that was bandied so much about with Guy Carbonneau.
Patrick Roy may be the next Carbonneau. Or he may be a good coach, we just don't know. We don't know because we never hear anything about it, unlike Boucher and his 1-3-1 back in the day. It's all about the emotional side, nothing about the practical side. I realize that the media aren't big on the practical side of hockey, but isn't that important? Is Patrick Roy only being considered because he is a Hall of Famer player?
A couple of things. First, not sure why you are all that surprised? Is that really news that most of our "journalists" don't know anything about the tactical aspect of hockey? Or not a whole lot about hockey in general, with tons of examples like the draft show on RDS when nobody knows a freakin thing about the #3 pick and I'm being generous? When they used that show to mostly talk about the teams and what's ahead of them for the upcoming year? And so on.....So, I hope you are not that surprised.
Then, well my guess would be that Cantin assumes he is a good coach, so goes on by talking about the intangibles. I mean, he's not talking about Bob Sauvé here, who then he would have to sell the fact that on top of everything, he can coach since he never coached on any leagues. So Cantin assumes he can do the job. But he won't go into any details because he's not interested in it, because he doesn't understand it himself or because he feels the readers aren't interested in it or mix everything together.
Now....as far as Roy's tactical aspects of the game, well I don't think you could systematically analyse what he's doing in Juniors and believe he'll reciprocate it in the pros. I guess it has to do with the players you have in hand. What I would like to do from my future coach is what type of team he's interested in. But that, unless you are really close to Roy, you can't ask him 'cause he'll tell you he's not interested and so on...Though it is one tiny example, you do see that he wouldn't be interesting in playing a Boucher's style of game. Not sure if people remember that while everybody was raving on Boucher's style of play, he came up saying that Boucher,s style killed the fun of the play and everybody was on Roy's back until Philly mocked it and now some began to understand what Roy was referring about. I guess they should have watched games more closely, 'cause it didn,t take the Philly incident to see it, but most people were saying that Roy was full of it, that Boucher had a whole lot of offense in his teams and so on....
But then, we never know. I guess there is so much you can do as a coach as far as passion and all. But if Roy is intelligent and he lacks in the tactical department, I'd bet he hires himself some great assistant coaches that would assist him in that department. We all know that Muller was doing more than just opening the bench doors and that's for a vet like Martin. So possible Roy is still learning the game tactically. We'll see how brillant he is with how he surrounds himself.
I'm from Western Canada and given the slightest reason to make fun of the Habs, the western/central Canada journalists seem to like nothing better than to poke fun at the Habs. When Montreal beat Vancouver a week or so ago, it was like what is wrong with the Canucks - how could they be that bad.
When PM's name comes up for discussion and commentary is made, it never goes the way you are suggesting and I'll just leave it at that.
Since I know nothing of western reporters and hockey pundits, I'll have to take your word for it. Out of curiosity, what exactly do they say about PM? Would love to know their take on him, provided it's intelligent.
I've had my own issues with PM and the dumb, reactionary things he's said about Price, PK, etc. in the past, but I have no doubt that he knows this league, knows how to surround himself with smart people and would love nothing better than to raise the CH logo from the ashes.
BTW, why does western Canada enjoy bashing the Habs?
Considering player evaluation has been a major flaws of the Gainey/Gauthier era and that we actually already have somebody pretty good at evaluating players...... How about Trevor Timmins? Would need to be surrounded, but I think he could help a ton in evaluating trades and po scouting in general.
If not Benning as GM, Timmins is MY candidate. For some reasons but one in particular. I feel that with a new management, Timmins could be on his way out and if there's one guy we need to keep, it's him. Some will say that we will then lose Timmins as a head scout, well I better lose him then and keep him at evaluating pro players as a GM than lose him period. And see him with Toronto, Bruins or whoever we will hate to see. Then, even as GM, Timmins will dress and tell what he's looking for in the draft even if the new appointed head scout will be in charge. Yet, I don't believe Timmins will be that far off with his background. And then, I see Timmins hiring the right guy as well, though it's possible Jankowski gets the call.
Not sure why we should care about people mocking McGuire. Mock him all you want because of his persona....but what if he does the freakin job? Aren't people mocking Burke right now? Were people mocking Bryan Murray at one point? Bruins fans and a lot of people kept mocking Julien.....Wouldn't be the first time in life that a guy being mocked 'cause then come back and spit on the mockers' face. Having said that, I have McGuire as #3 for GM. Though I have a better job for him. An assistant GM to Trevor Timmins.
Not sure why we should care about people mocking McGuire. Mock him all you want because of his persona....but what if he does the freakin job? Aren't people mocking Burke right now? Were people mocking Bryan Murray at one point? Bruins fans and a lot of people kept mocking Julien.....Wouldn't be the first time in life that a guy being mocked 'cause then come back and spit on the mockers' face. Having said that, I have McGuire as #3 for GM. Though I have a better job for him. An assistant GM to Trevor Timmins.
I would love that tbh, well maybe not to Timmins per se, but whoever is in charge. Why would we want to mess with a good thing in our scouting department, barring a massive draft fail this year? in which case he should be nowhere near the GM job. But McGuire would be perfect for the ass. GM position and it could mean a promotion one day if he plays his cards right. Could be his gateway.
I believe Sam Pollock once said something along the lines of if you can go into a hockey rink and identify the 2 best players on the ice you can be a NHL GM, everything else you can hire someone for.
The game has changed a LOT since then, and I think Pollock was short-changing the job even back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsrock76
I think Roy has proven himself (albeit in junior) as a GM who can identify talent.
His ability to turn economic advantage into competitive advantage is what recommends him the most for the GM job... if it translates. Which, given the very different structure of the NHL, it may not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsrock76
I think he'd be the francophone equivilent of Burke with a take no prisoners approach to the job.
I don't know if you've noticed, but the Maple Leafs, they've not been so good.
I would love that tbh, well maybe not to Timmins per se, but whoever is in charge. Why would we want to mess with a good thing in our scouting department, barring a massive draft fail this year? in which case he should be nowhere near the GM job. But McGuire would be perfect for the ass. GM position and it could mean a promotion one day if he plays his cards right. Could be his gateway.
But straight up as a GM hell no.
I total agree with you...McGuire would be great at evaluating talent at junior and pro level...but he lacks leadership qualities you want to see in your GM.
I believe Sam Pollock once said something along the lines of if you can go into a hockey rink and identify the 2 best players on the ice you can be a NHL GM, everything else you can hire someone for.
I think Roy has proven himself (albeit in junior) as a GM who can identify talent.
I think he'd be the francophone equivilent of Burke with a take no prisoners approach to the job.
I actually think that this bodes more for Timmins than Roy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by predz
Considering player evaluation has been a major flaws of the Gainey/Gauthier era and that we actually already have somebody pretty good at evaluating players...... How about Trevor Timmins? Would need to be surrounded, but I think he could help a ton in evaluating trades and po scouting in general.
Hey, is there an echo in here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake
If not Benning as GM, Timmins is MY candidate. For some reasons but one in particular. I feel that with a new management, Timmins could be on his way out and if there's one guy we need to keep, it's him. Some will say that we will then lose Timmins as a head scout, well I better lose him then and keep him at evaluating pro players as a GM than lose him period. And see him with Toronto, Bruins or whoever we will hate to see. Then, even as GM, Timmins will dress and tell what he's looking for in the draft even if the new appointed head scout will be in charge. Yet, I don't believe Timmins will be that far off with his background. And then, I see Timmins hiring the right guy as well, though it's possible Jankowski gets the call.
Some of the names I'm hearing being bandied about by the media are making me nauseous.
Molson needs to understand that the focus should be solely on hiring the right people to build an organization committed to solid drafting, strong player development and good asset management. Excellence in these domains will lead to building a winning organization. Building a winning organization is the best way to keep the fans happy and sensationalist media at bay.
Short-sightedly appeasing the masses of average fans and the soap opera-loving media by hiring popular Quebec and Ex-Habs celebrities from years past is reminiscent of watching a bad incestuous reality TV show that never ends.
I know rumors are just rumors, but is Hartley really the best bilingual coach available? Is Roy really the best GM available? Are those the guys that will help us build an organization founded on excellence from top to bottom? I've never met them personally so I can't say for sure (even though I very strongly doubt it), but Molson had better do his due diligence and make sure whoever he hires is actually the best for the job.
Well if Molson is commited to making the Montreal Canadiens a franchise that is respected again, then he'll have too.
I personally don't want anything to do with an ex-Habs player, I don't care what language the coach speaks either, nor do I think the majority of Habs fan does either.
Now, I do think the Habs, if they should hire an english speaking coach...they'll need to have him at least learn to communicate in french, but I don't think it should be a factor in the hiring process.
My #1 GM choice would be Marc Bergevin though...if not as GM, then the Habs need to get him in the organization as a pro scout or assistant GM. The Habs need to spend money on their management team, they need the best people in this market.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what Molson is going to do in the coming weeks...his hire of the next GM/coach will speak volumes about where this organization is heading towards.
Its time for the Montreal Canadiens to join the rest of the NHL in the modern era...the incredible success of the past with this organization has almost condemmed their future.
Well if Molson is commited to making the Montreal Canadiens a franchise that is respected again, then he'll have too.
I personally don't want anything to do with an ex-Habs player, I don't care what language the coach speaks either, nor do I think the majority of Habs fan does either.
Now, I do think the Habs, if they should hire an english speaking coach...they'll need to have him at least learn to communicate in french, but I don't think it should be a factor in the hiring process.
My #1 GM choice would be Marc Bergevin though...if not as GM, then the Habs need to get him in the organization as a pro scout or assistant GM. The Habs need to spend money on their management team, they need the best people in this market.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what Molson is going to do in the coming weeks...his hire of the next GM/coach will speak volumes about where this organization is heading towards.
Its time for the Montreal Canadiens to join the rest of the NHL in the modern era...the incredible success of the past with this organization has almost condemmed their future.
looks like your going to be dissapointed!!
and rightfully so--- get real
Since I know nothing of western reporters and hockey pundits, I'll have to take your word for it. Out of curiosity, what exactly do they say about PM? Would love to know their take on him, provided it's intelligent.
I've had my own issues with PM and the dumb, reactionary things he's said about Price, PK, etc. in the past, but I have no doubt that he knows this league, knows how to surround himself with smart people and would love nothing better than to raise the CH logo from the ashes.
BTW, why does western Canada enjoy bashing the Habs?
Those players you brought up not only reflect on the players themselves but the coaches, the scouts and the GM, too. Also, he does this on national tv and then, oops, he's wrong but never mind, on to the next story.
He's rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and there's not a lot of respect for him, his ambition or his understanding of the game.
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The Habs have been traditionally been successful and they seem jealous. They only seem to want to talk about the negatives, like the start of the season, the firing of Martin or the french coach debate and almost none of the positives. That's the way it is.
BTW, why does western Canada enjoy bashing the Habs?
There's a lot of anti-Francophone sentiment in western Canada - just look at Harper.
A lot of resentment about bilingualism and that Quebec is "stealing" their money.
The Habs are presented as a team of a bunch of French separatists which is funny when you consider the accusations of being a federalist mouthpiece within Quebec, and the federalist stances of a lot of Habs legends. But of course all the coaching nonsense doesn't help that.
Guys, let's just leave the language debate out of this and go back to arm-chair management, okay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake
If not Benning as GM, Timmins is MY candidate. For some reasons but one in particular. I feel that with a new management, Timmins could be on his way out and if there's one guy we need to keep, it's him. Some will say that we will then lose Timmins as a head scout, well I better lose him then and keep him at evaluating pro players as a GM than lose him period. And see him with Toronto, Bruins or whoever we will hate to see. Then, even as GM, Timmins will dress and tell what he's looking for in the draft even if the new appointed head scout will be in charge. Yet, I don't believe Timmins will be that far off with his background. And then, I see Timmins hiring the right guy as well, though it's possible Jankowski gets the call.
That's one thing I've wondered about for a while. He's been with us forever now. Is he content with his position/salary/responsibilities? Some people are just happy doing their "niche" job... but most want to be promoted.
IMO, Timmins is well qualified to make the jump based on what I've seen from him and his work. Having said that, he won't be the Director anymore and someone else would have to take that spot. I can't think of anyone that I trust with that position. Or maybe it won't be that important because Timmins has the final say as GM...
Also interesting about McGuire being an asst. to Timmins or another qualified GM. I wouldn't mind that. Full GM though? No way!
Guys, let's just leave the language debate out of this and go back to arm-chair management, okay?
That's one thing I've wondered about for a while. He's been with us forever now. Is he content with his position/salary/responsibilities? Some people are just happy doing their "niche" job... but most want to be promoted.
IMO, Timmins is well qualified to make the jump based on what I've seen from him and his work. Having said that, he won't be the Director anymore and someone else would have to take that spot. I can't think of anyone that I trust with that position. Or maybe it won't be that important because Timmins has the final say as GM...
Also interesting about McGuire being an asst. to Timmins or another qualified GM. I wouldn't mind that. Full GM though? No way!
Timmins will not be the next gm and the next gm might not want timmins-
because its not realistic- wont happen- and you can find good candidates who are french!!
If roy is hired in whatever capacity- i beleive it will be a breath of fresh air for this stuffy secret odd organization
When I can find a correlation between what language a person speaks and how it affects their ability to be good talent evaluators and do everything a good GM needs to do...then maybe speaking french is an attribute i'll want them to look for.
But since that will never happen...I couldn't care less. If he speaks french, great bonus...if he doesn't, no big deal to me. Have the organization spend a little coin for him to learn to communicate in French. I mean, I work for the goverment, we send peopleo on french language training for 2 months and they come back with decent conversational french, don't tell me an organization like the Habs cant do that. Regardless, language should have nothing to do with the hiring process, it should be an asset...not a requirement
You think bringing in another ex-Habs will be a breath of fresh air??? isn't that what this organization has been doing since...forever?
It's 2012 man...when are the Habs going to step into this decade?
I want a candidate who has NHL hockey managerial credentials...I don't care about if he played for the Habs, in fact, I would prefer if he had not ties to the Habs whatsoever. I want hockey people who have had recent success building hockey teams into perennial contenders i.e. Marc Bergevin.
If not Benning as GM, Timmins is MY candidate. For some reasons but one in particular. I feel that with a new management, Timmins could be on his way out and if there's one guy we need to keep, it's him. Some will say that we will then lose Timmins as a head scout, well I better lose him then and keep him at evaluating pro players as a GM than lose him period. And see him with Toronto, Bruins or whoever we will hate to see. Then, even as GM, Timmins will dress and tell what he's looking for in the draft even if the new appointed head scout will be in charge. Yet, I don't believe Timmins will be that far off with his background. And then, I see Timmins hiring the right guy as well, though it's possible Jankowski gets the call.
If anything, Timmins knows the value of picks and keeping and working with young players. I'd be a bit scared to see him to pull a Button and mismanage the team's talent like he did releasing St-Louis and dealing Gigučre for a 2nd rounder.
We'd need a really strong and seasoned front office if we put Timmins in the big seat like that.
I can't recall a time ever where a GM was hired with literally no NHL management experience (GMing a junior team is completely different from GMing the NHL).
Also, I would puke if Bob Hartley AKA Jacques Martin's protege was hired as coach.
When I can find a correlation between what language a person speaks and how it affects their ability to be good talent evaluators and do everything a good GM needs to do...then maybe speaking french is an attribute i'll want them to look for.
But since that will never happen...I couldn't care less. If he speaks french, great bonus...if he doesn't, no big deal to me. Have the organization spend a little coin for him to learn to communicate in French. I mean, I work for the goverment, we send peopleo on french language training for 2 months and they come back with decent conversational french, don't tell me an organization like the Habs cant do that. Regardless, language should have nothing to do with the hiring process, it should be an asset...not a requirement
You think bringing in another ex-Habs will be a breath of fresh air??? isn't that what this organization has been doing since...forever?
It's 2012 man...when are the Habs going to step into this decade?
I want a candidate who has NHL hockey managerial credentials...I don't care about if he played for the Habs, in fact, I would prefer if he had not ties to the Habs whatsoever. I want hockey people who have had recent success building hockey teams into perennial contenders i.e. Marc Bergevin.
I can't recall a time ever where a GM was hired with literally no NHL management experience (GMing a junior team is completely different from GMing the NHL).
Also, I would puke if Bob Hartley AKA Jacques Martin's protege was hired as coach.
