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2011-2012 Rangers Prospects Thread (Juniors, College, International, Other) *Part VI*

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Old
04-08-2012, 11:13 PM
  #726
Kwayry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
he removed them so it would be under 12 and 'prove' his point
Ok, If you remove our top prospects, the prospect pool is not deep. Unless I am missing something, I don't follow the logic of removing the top offensive and defensive prospects.

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04-08-2012, 11:21 PM
  #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
First, it would be under 12 regardless even with them because the odds of everyone making it are non-existent. You have to know NOTHING about prospects to think that everyone will make it. To get even half of these guys to make it would be an achievement. So I didn't need to do anything to prove any point.

Second, I removed them not to prove a point, but because I was from the start talking about our prospects going down with time, and from the start I mentioned that I was talking about our prospects in about a year.

Third, the argument of every loser who has nothing to say after his point has been thoroughly disproven: when you've lost your point, attack the other guy personally.
That's not fair though. You assume the top prospects today will be on the team next year, so let's not count them. They are still the 2 top prospects.
You may have a valid point, that the quality of the depth is not the same as in the past, but overall the current crop of top prospects is the same if not better than 2008.

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04-08-2012, 11:28 PM
  #728
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Question to the OP:
When are the size/weight stats updated?

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Old
04-08-2012, 11:41 PM
  #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
That's not fair though. You assume the top prospects today will be on the team next year, so let's not count them. They are still the 2 top prospects.
You may have a valid point, that the quality of the depth is not the same as in the past, but overall the current crop of top prospects is the same if not better than 2008.

Either way, whether Kreider graduates or not, we will need an influx of prospects in 2014, which is just two years from now, to have enough money to pay Lundqvist, Stepan, Callahan, Hagelin, Anisimov, McDonagh, Sauer, Girardi while re-signing or replacing Gaborik. The only way that will be even remotely possible is if we could add multiple high-quality rookies.

We would probably need to trade guys like Dubinsky, Anisimov, Boyle and Sauer and replace them with rookies on cheap ELCs just to re-sign other guys.

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04-08-2012, 11:44 PM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
First, it would be under 12 regardless even with them because the odds of everyone making it are non-existent. You have to know NOTHING about prospects to think that everyone will make it. To get even half of these guys to make it would be an achievement. So I didn't need to do anything to prove any point.
How the **** do you know? We had 12 guys who made it then. Our top 12 could make it now too. It's not definite, but it's possible. I don't know why the hell a maximum of six of them will pan out according to you. General statistics are just that: General. You can't guarantee them in any specific situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Second, this was a conversation about the direction towards which our prospects going over time, and from the start I mentioned that I was talking about our prospects in about a year.
And in a year we'll have made another first round pick and we might land guys in other ways too. The odds are pretty good we move Dubinsky in the offseason to clear cap space for a scoring forward, and we'll likely get a first round pick or a good prospect back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Third, the argument of every loser who has nothing to say after his point has been thoroughly disproven: when you've lost your point, attack the other guy personally.
I love this. Someone disagrees with you and you declare your opinion to be fact and then call the guy a loser when he disagrees with you. I thought the point of an argument was to persuade. I hardly think calling someone a loser does much to prove your point.

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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Fourth, the reason this matters is that things will start catching up. Not immediately, but at some point down the line. Just as we pay attention to what our salary cap situation will be when guys like Girardi and Callahan will have to get paid, we have to pay attention to the prospect pool a few years in advance.

The reason we are able to pay guys like Richards and Gaborik is that we have so many entry-level guys producing for little money. If we can no longer produce guys like Del Zotto and McDonagh who will play for ELC money, then we won't be able to afford stars. Unless we have ELC bargains coming in, all the Gaborik money will go to guys who need pay raises, and we will just lose him without replacement.
You act like we're just going to stop drafting good players. Clark and Gorton are still running the drafts. You can spin the numbers any way you like and call it a fact, but there's no reason to think the system is just going to drop off a cliff.

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Old
04-08-2012, 11:56 PM
  #731
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Let's just get this down to the original point I made a while ago: the prospects in 2008 were ridiculously good, the best in the NHL, and we've been slowly going down since then. It doesn't mean that it's a tragedy, but we should be aware of this, just as we are keeping in mind other things about the future in mind, things like the salary cap. Is this likely true or likely false? If you agree that our current crop will likely be weaker than the super-farm of 2008, then just leave it alone. Why the need to prove that every single crop of prospects we have is as good as any we ever had?

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04-09-2012, 12:18 AM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Let's just get this down to the original point I made a while ago: the prospects in 2008 were ridiculously good, the best in the NHL, and we've been slowly going down since then. It doesn't mean that it's a tragedy, but we should be aware of this, just as we are keeping in mind other things about the future in mind, things like the salary cap. Is this likely true or likely false? If you agree that our current crop will likely be weaker than the super-farm of 2008, then just leave it alone. Why the need to prove that every single crop of prospects we have is as good as any we ever had?
I dunno. Why the need to constantly frame and re-frame the debate so that it suits your arguments? You go from insulting people to just asking us to generally agree with you and "leave it alone." The fact of the matter is you don't have much of a point. We still have a strong group of prospects. We still have a very well run farm system. Year to year fluctuations of the exact number of top prospects in the system don't really mean a whole lot. It would probably be a worse sign if the number wasn't changing. You want guys to graduate and establish themselves as NHLers. You can't instantly replace every graduating prospect. Now that we have a young roster, you might even expect to see the number of top prospects increase because there will be fewer and fewer spots for those guys to take.

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Old
04-09-2012, 06:59 AM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Question to the OP:
When are the size/weight stats updated?
At the start of each season. I go by what the teams provide, and they generally don't change their listings during the course of the year. I do check though. Everything should be pretty accurate.

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04-09-2012, 07:16 AM
  #734
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Kreider
Erixon
McIlrath
Miller
Fasth
Yogan
Thomas
St. Croix
Fogarty

That's a solid group of prospects. One of the better systems in the league.

Seven of them are/will be at the pro level now/in October.

There's no reason to believe they wont continue to add to that depth.

They're already working on signing Schultz, who is arguably the top defense prospect available.

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Old
04-09-2012, 07:40 AM
  #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Kreider
Erixon
McIlrath
Miller
Fasth
Yogan
Thomas
St. Croix
Fogarty

That's a solid group of prospects. One of the better systems in the league.

Seven of them are/will be at the pro level now/in October.

There's no reason to believe they wont continue to add to that depth.

They're already working on signing Schultz, who is arguably the top defense prospect available.



what exactly do you mean with this statement; 29 other teams are probably doing the same thing, trying to entice Schultz to join their org; or do you have info that I'm not aware of as in Justin Schultz has stated he wants NYR?

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Old
04-09-2012, 08:24 AM
  #736
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It's been noted by a few sources - Dreger and the Edmonton Sun (Matheson?) - that the Rangers are one of the frontrunners to sign Schultz.

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Old
04-09-2012, 08:31 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
It's been noted by a few sources - Dreger and the Edmonton Sun (Matheson?) - that the Rangers are one of the frontrunners to sign Schultz.
I REALLY hope so.

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Old
04-09-2012, 01:21 PM
  #738
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What a stupid list that was by Esq who usually posts with a least a shred of reasonability.

Remove kreider and Erixon meaning the list is really for an entire year from now seeing as how those two will still be prospects in our system for at least about 55 games next year

Esq list does this: Without seeing how any of our prospects do next season ESPECIALLY Thomas, Yogan, McI, Miller, Fasth assume they won;t be as good even if they continue to grow while at the pro level. Bourque could also easily flip a switch he showed things in traverse that i really liked. JAM and Schultz could also be signed.

At this point last year we probably didn't look at our 1st as much because we didn't know what the player would actually be. Same for our other picks. Yet now people LOVE Miller and you skyrocketed him up to 1. Point: It's foolish to speculate as much as you did with so many unknowns going into next year.

You know what you could argue? We don't have as firm a grasp on our prospect list as we usually have. our pool is definitely in a transition period.

I always also like to think of it in terms of this: We have several prospects who were so good they graduated early but they would otherwise still be on this list. McD is an all star D man when he could still be on the list. Hagelin was a Calder candidate and is on our first line. MDZ has 2 seasons of NHL hockey already and looks like a stud now. Stepan also has had two seasons and could still be on this list.

If you want to look at an NHL organizations future than these guys need to be included on this list because they're careers are going to be just as long as anyone else still technically on the ungraduated prospects list. Removing guys early is the OPPOSITE of what you should do if you're thinking clearly.

Stepan
McD,
Hagelin
MDZ
Erixon
Kreider
Miller
McI
Thomas
JAM (likely to sign)
Fasth
Yogan
St. Croix
1st from this year

I personally hate the idea that a player is suddenly no longer a prospect at an arbitrary GP number while still only 20 friggin years old. 22 is a better age to start eliminating prospects from the pool based on GP


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Old
04-09-2012, 01:51 PM
  #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
At the start of each season. I go by what the teams provide, and they generally don't change their listings during the course of the year. I do check though. Everything should be pretty accurate.
Thanks, let me clarify my question. We heard on this thread that MSC has grown to 6' and 200 pounds, I was wondering when that will be confirmed by the team. Prospect camp?

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04-09-2012, 02:30 PM
  #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Thanks, let me clarify my question. We heard on this thread that MSC has grown to 6' and 200 pounds, I was wondering when that will be confirmed by the team. Prospect camp?
Development camp at the very end of June.

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Old
04-09-2012, 02:58 PM
  #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
First, it would be under 12 regardless even with them because the odds of everyone making it are non-existent. You have to know NOTHING about prospects to think that everyone will make it. To get even half of these guys to make it would be an achievement. So I didn't need to do anything to prove any point.

Second, this was a conversation about the direction towards which our prospects going over time, and from the start I mentioned that I was talking about our prospects in about a year.

Third, the argument of every loser who has nothing to say after his point has been thoroughly disproven: when you've lost your point, attack the other guy personally.

Fourth, the reason this matters is that things will start catching up. Not immediately, but at some point down the line. Just as we pay attention to what our salary cap situation will be when guys like Girardi and Callahan will have to get paid, we have to pay attention to the prospect pool a few years in advance.

The reason we are able to pay guys like Richards and Gaborik is that we have so many entry-level guys producing for little money. If we can no longer produce guys like Del Zotto and McDonagh who will play for ELC money, then we won't be able to afford stars. Unless we have ELC bargains coming in, all the Gaborik money will go to guys who need pay raises, and we will just lose him without replacement.
I think this is where we disagree. The reason our pool is smaller than it was a few years back is due to the fact that our rebuilding process is nearly complete. We are now on the cusp of having a great team...and a very young one at that. So it's completely understandable that our prospect list is not as deep as it was. The next few years there will be less turnover and fewer spots available as the core is mostly set. During this time the prospect pool will start to increase again. It's simply part of the natural ebb and flow of the franchise.

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04-09-2012, 04:35 PM
  #742
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Re 12 future NHLers in the org: Can anyone point out which 12 players on THIS ROSTER they want to substitute in the near future, so that I can understand what this debate is about?

3-4 future NHLers is more than enough for our farm. You never get any value for a non-1st round prospect anyway really (except a few rare kids), and at least I can't see any room for 10, let alone 6, kids on this team in the coming 2-3 years.

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04-09-2012, 05:19 PM
  #743
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I'm not sure the top 8 players in the current prospect pool aren't just as good (or even better) than the top 8 players in 2009. What made that group different was the depth of the group. All of the stockpiling of draft choices, great drafting and a wise trade or two really filled that group out. Now our prospect list looks more like a very successful top tier team.

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04-09-2012, 05:24 PM
  #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Thanks, let me clarify my question. We heard on this thread that MSC has grown to 6' and 200 pounds, I was wondering when that will be confirmed by the team. Prospect camp?
Do you remember who reported that?

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04-09-2012, 06:51 PM
  #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
Development camp at the very end of June.
Thank you.

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04-09-2012, 07:04 PM
  #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Do you remember who reported that?
Found the quote, it was 6' and 182 pounds. Not sure why I remembered 200 lbs, wishful thinking?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=#post41928151


Quote:
Originally Posted by newoilburnsclean
they say he is 6 feet and 182 lbs right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry
Who is they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilmageddon
Corey Graham mentioned it in between period , he is Oil king play by play man was listening in between periods

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Old
04-09-2012, 08:57 PM
  #747
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Article on MSC
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sport...587/story.html

Quote:
“I set a goal at the start of the season to try and get 100 points,” he said.

“Fortunately I was able to do that, along with the success of the team. First off, the success of the team was most important, but because of the success of the team, I was able to have a good season.”

Already the team’s all-time leading scorer, St. Croix became the first player in modern franchise history to become a 100-point man. While racking up points with Edmonton — he now has 228 in 208 games — he’s made it difficult for the Rangers to not notice him.

“I’m not trying to think too much about the Rangers,” St. Croix said. “They have a good playoff push coming up here, and they have other things on the go, but hopefully they were happy with my season and hopefully I can keep playing well.

“I’m trying to play hockey for the Edmonton Oil Kings right now. I don’t really know what’s going to happen with the Rangers in the next couple of years, but when it comes or when it happens, we’ll deal with it then.”
then this funny line from the coach
Quote:
Fresh off of the ice at Keystone Arena after practice on Monday morning, Derek Laxdal said nothing much had changed in Brandon.

“It’s dusty, it smells like cow manure, the boards are high and hard and they’ve got that tempered glass; it hasn’t changed much,” said Laxdal, the Oil Kings head coach who played two years of junior hockey with the Wheat Kings, from 1983 to 1985. In the 1984-85 season, Laxdal had a 102-point campaign.

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04-10-2012, 11:12 AM
  #748
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Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
They have high potential but I don't think any of them will really achieve theirs. Thomas can be a 30g scorer one day but I'm not sold on him. Miller can be a 60 point forward but I think he's more likely to be 15-20 goal scoring 3rd line checker, which is OK. I think Mcilrath will be a more physical Sauer, which would be a very nice addition to our blue line for sure.
I'd throw an old school comparison for McIlrath and say Derien Hatcher, only that he can actually go end over end while he's skating. The biggest addition he brings over Sauer is that McIlrath is a devastating hitter, open ice, along the boards, cross check to the back of your neck, Dylan actively dishes out the pain. He's got a very long reach like Hatcher, and is a phenomenal penalty killer already. He does not let up when he hits, and why would he when there aren't many out there that can chuck em as good as him.

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04-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Found the quote, it was 6' and 182 pounds. Not sure why I remembered 200 lbs, wishful thinking?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=#post41928151
What really matters is the size of this kids heart. Not to be too cliche, but that is what will spell success or lack of it in the end.

I think MSC is beginning to answer that question now.

A few years ago we had another smallish player who a lot of folks had questions about....and rightly so. Ryan Callahan is proving that if you have guts and heart, you can go a long, long way. Brilliant pick for Captain as it sets an excellent example for prospects like MSC and others to follow.

The Rangers are showing that it does not matter what your pedigree is, or if you were even drafted. If you can play, they will give you a chance. Great thing for our youngsters to see. Huge advantage for the Rangers moving forward.

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04-10-2012, 05:26 PM
  #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
I'd throw an old school comparison for McIlrath and say Derien Hatcher, only that he can actually go end over end while he's skating. The biggest addition he brings over Sauer is that McIlrath is a devastating hitter, open ice, along the boards, cross check to the back of your neck, Dylan actively dishes out the pain. He's got a very long reach like Hatcher, and is a phenomenal penalty killer already. He does not let up when he hits, and why would he when there aren't many out there that can chuck em as good as him.
I hope he's a Derian Hatcher who has clawed his way out of the quicksand he was skating through.

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