Interesting read about the growth of hockey in the US and the leveling off in Canada. The numbers certainly make it a little harder to paint Gary Bettman (From? Cornell!) and the BoG as the Great Satan(s) for their southern expansion.
I hate the title and citing of that statistic as evidence (hockey more popular than basketball). The question people were answering is which sport is their favorite, if they were required to make a list, hockey would receive a much, much lower avg score.
Interesting (but flawed article). Hockey will always be "Canada's game". The US will never surpass it. It's ingrained in their culture (and much more than football is in the USA's). The best way to describe to prevalence of hockey in Canada is this (I lived there for 4 years): you don't know which of your friends play hockey-you know the ones that don't.
edit: And while hockey got 5% of the vote as favorite sport (which is very low)...let's be honest. Not many people would list hockey as 2nd or 3rd.
Interesting (but flawed article). Hockey will always be "Canada's game". The US will never surpass it. It's ingrained in their culture (and much more than football is in the USA's). The best way to describe to prevalence of hockey in Canada is this (I lived there for 4 years): you don't know which of your friends play hockey-you know the ones that don't.
edit: And while hockey got 5% of the vote as favorite sport (which is very low)...let's be honest. Not many people would list hockey as 2nd or 3rd.
Numbers game -- 313 million Americans vs 13 million Canadians. Doesn't have to be the #1 game in the US (or even #2, 3) to surpass Canada at some point in the next 10-20 years. Fact that large portions of the US are now open to hockey (and producing D1 and NHL prospects) backs up his theory for the time being, numbers do the rest.
Numbers game -- 313 million Americans vs 13 million Canadians. Doesn't have to be the #1 game in the US (or even #2, 3) to surpass Canada at some point in the next 10-20 years. Fact that large portions of the US are now open to hockey (and producing D1 and NHL prospects) backs up his theory for the time being, numbers do the rest.
Right but 1M of Okposos <<< 1K of Tavares. It's all relative
Right but 1M of Okposos <<< 1K of Tavares. It's all relative
True, but Zach Parise, Patty Kane, Phil Kessel, Bobby Ryan, Ryan Suter, Jonathan Quick, Tim Thomas, etc, not like there isn't top-end talent coming out of the US.
Put it this way, there are a ton more elite athletes in the US (by that, I mean just through sheer numbers), now some of them are choosing hockey over other sports.
Despite the fact that the US will undoubtable surpass Canada in a sheer numbers in a few years, Canada still has the hockey infrastructure to churn out better players.
If my son's team has a choice between attending a Canadian tournament or one in the US, we'll almost always pick the Canadian tournament, the competition is so much higher.
Numbers game -- 313 million Americans vs 13 million Canadians. Doesn't have to be the #1 game in the US (or even #2, 3) to surpass Canada at some point in the next 10-20 years. Fact that large portions of the US are now open to hockey (and producing D1 and NHL prospects) backs up his theory for the time being, numbers do the rest.
Quality > quantity. Canadians are not just exposed to hockey on a much higher level, but also very differently.
I lived in a town with a population under 200,000 people in Canada...there were 8 buildings with ice-rinks. I doubt there's anywhere in the US where there's 1 rink (that's buildings-not actual ice-surfaces, one eve had 4-that's four-ice surfaces in one building). There isn't a place in the US that has this kind of access to ice-rinks-and that's a town with a population of under 200,000 (it's about 180,000).
When you're in middle school it's common for kids to go to hockey practice before school (yes you practice that early during the week). You build backyard rinks to get more playing time when you're away from the rink-something millions and millions of Americans don't have the opportunity to do. It's also easier to learn any sport when you know others who've played before, or your parents/uncles/aunts, etc. can show you the game-rather than not having that opportunity-as many Americans do.
In short: even if you had the same amount of numbers:
-Canadians start playing at earlier ages
-Canadians have access to more ice-time (including backyard rinks in the winter)
-Canadians have better resources for hockey in terms of instructors
-Canada's hockey infrastructure is far superior to the USA's...college hockey is lightyears away from the OHL and the QMJHL.
Don't get me wrong-it's obvious that hockey in the US is getting better...but let's be realistic.
True, but Zach Parise, Patty Kane, Phil Kessel, Bobby Ryan, Ryan Suter, Jonathan Quick, Tim Thomas, etc, not like there isn't top-end talent coming out of the US.
Put it this way, there are a ton more elite athletes in the US (by that, I mean just through sheer numbers), now some of them are choosing hockey over other sports.
Those two went to Canada in order to play at a high competitive level (the OHL). Not only that but I think all of the players you named come from areas in the US where hockey has always been relatively big in.
Quality > quantity. Canadians are not just exposed to hockey on a much higher level, but also very differently.
If it was quality over quantity, I doubt the last Olympics comes down to one goal. In OT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit
I lived in a town with a population under 200,000 people in Canada...there were 8 buildings with ice-rinks. I doubt there's anywhere in the US where there's 1 rink (that's buildings-not actual ice-surfaces, one eve had 4-that's four-ice surfaces in one building). There isn't a place in the US that has this kind of access to ice-rinks-and that's a town with a population of under 200,000 (it's about 180,000).
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but there are actually a ton multi-surface arenas in the US. Does Marlborough, MA and it's 39,000 people count (about 30-40 miles outside of Boston) because they have a beautiful 6-surface arena (plus one mini-rink) that was always fun to play at.
Hell, even down here in Miami, every rink has at least two surfaces, Panthers practice facility has three, beautiful place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit
When you're in middle school it's common for kids to go to hockey practice before school (yes you practice that early during the week). You build backyard rinks to get more playing time when you're away from the rink-something millions and millions of Americans don't have the opportunity to do. It's also easier to learn any sport when you know others who've played before, or your parents/uncles/aunts, etc. can show you the game-rather than not having that opportunity-as many Americans do.
Ahh, I remember the crack-o-dawn practices back when I grew up in NY, god I hated that.
Don't think anyone is arguing about the current state, crux of the article was about how hockey is being brought to every corner of the US now and how over time, that is going to change the dynamic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit
In short: even if you had the same amount of numbers:
-Canadians start playing at earlier ages
-Canadians have access to more ice-time (including backyard rinks in the winter)
-Canadians have better resources for hockey in terms of instructors
-Canada's hockey infrastructure is far superior to the USA's...college hockey is lightyears away from the OHL and the QMJHL.
Don't get me wrong-it's obvious that hockey in the US is getting better...but let's be realistic.
'Lightyears' away? Maybe in 1980, but I think Jonathan Toews, Zach Parise, Ryan Miller, Tim Thomas, Paul Statsny, Duncan Keith, Dany Heatley, Ryan Kesler, Brian Gionta, Marty St. Louis, Matt Carle, Phil Kessel, Brooks Orpik, Jack Johnson, Dan Boyle, Kevin Bieksa, Thomas Vanek, Ryan Suter, Erik Cole, Joe Pavelski, David Backes, Mike Cammalleri, Patrick Sharp, James Van Riemsdyk, Jimmy Howard, R.J Umberger, Paul Martin, Erik Johnson, Brian Rolston (hey, back in the day), Andy McDonald, Justin Abdelkader, TJ Oshie, Jordan Leopold, Curtis Glencross, Dustin Penner, Rob Scuderi, Mike Komisarek, Chris Higgins, Kyle Okposo (hopefully), Tom Poti, Matt Moulson, Doug Murray, Derek Stepan, Ryan McDonagh, Marty Reasoner, Mark Eaton, Al Montoya, Ryan Malone, Jonathan Quick, Brian Rafalski, and Ryan Whitney might beg to differ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit
Those two went to Canada in order to play at a high competitive level (the OHL). Not only that but I think all of the players you named come from areas in the US where hockey has always been relatively big in.
Hey, if Canada is claiming a big role in Kane's development because of his one year in the OHL, we're going to do the same because of Crosby's year at Shattuck.
Kidding aside, again, the article is about how areas that 20 years ago wouldn't have produced a Bantam AAA talent are now producing Jr, college, and NHL prospects and that is going to have an effect down the line when combined with the traditional areas (MA, MN, MI) that have always produced talent.
Numbers game -- 313 million Americans vs 13 million Canadians. Doesn't have to be the #1 game in the US (or even #2, 3) to surpass Canada at some point in the next 10-20 years. Fact that large portions of the US are now open to hockey (and producing D1 and NHL prospects) backs up his theory for the time being, numbers do the rest.
There's actually 34 million of us, not 13.
While the numbers are in your favor, the thing that's missing is accessibility and infrastructure. Within 10 minutes of where I live there are 9 rinks. Within 20 minutes, there are over 20 rinks.
Every community of 2000 people or more has a rink here. While the population may be higher, it's going to take a lot longer for the infrastructure to catch up in the US.
I think you have to owe the growth of US hockey to Gary Bettman. As unpopular as he is...he grew the sport.
The difference is that hockey is a "cultural" sport in Canada. For the most part, it's a way of life (especially in rural settings). Like a hybrid between baseball and football in the US. The people that don't play are usually new immigrants or first gens. At some point, someone in your family will eventually play 8-)
'Lightyears' away? Maybe in 1980, but I think Jonathan Toews, Zach Parise, Ryan Miller, Tim Thomas, Paul Statsny, Duncan Keith, Dany Heatley, Ryan Kesler, Brian Gionta, Marty St. Louis, Matt Carle, Phil Kessel, Brooks Orpik, Jack Johnson, Dan Boyle, Kevin Bieksa, Thomas Vanek, Ryan Suter, Erik Cole, Joe Pavelski, David Backes, Mike Cammalleri, Patrick Sharp, James Van Riemsdyk, Jimmy Howard, R.J Umberger, Paul Martin, Erik Johnson, Brian Rolston (hey, back in the day), Andy McDonald, Justin Abdelkader, TJ Oshie, Jordan Leopold, Curtis Glencross, Dustin Penner, Rob Scuderi, Mike Komisarek, Chris Higgins, Kyle Okposo (hopefully), Tom Poti, Matt Moulson, Doug Murray, Derek Stepan, Ryan McDonagh, Marty Reasoner, Mark Eaton, Al Montoya, Ryan Malone, Jonathan Quick, Brian Rafalski, and Ryan Whitney might beg to differ.
While the numbers are in your favor, the thing that's missing is accessibility and infrastructure. Within 10 minutes of where I live there are 9 rinks. Within 20 minutes, there are over 20 rinks.
Every community of 2000 people or more has a rink here. While the population may be higher, it's going to take a lot longer for the infrastructure to catch up in the US.
I live in the small province of New Brunswick in Canada population 751,000. No NHL team within hundreds of miles or Km's
About 90 indoor rinks.
That's just a small sample of Canada.
Whatever soccer is to the UK, or cricket is to India or rugby to New Zealand..........that's what hickey is to Canada
I know it's hard to understand........but baseball maybe America's past time but hockey is Canada's lifeline..pulse...heart beat.
That's just a small sample of Canada.
Whatever soccer is to the UK, or cricket is to India or rugby to New Zealand..........that's what hickey is to Canada
I know it's hard to understand........but baseball maybe America's past time but hockey is Canada's lifeline..pulse...heart beat.
Exactly. And that doesn't include, for example, the three backyard rinks on my block (including mine) or the outdoor basketball court that is converted into an outdoor rink one block over. Over half the kids on my son's novice team have backyard rinks as well. We're all hockey-mad here.
I don't think there's any question that Canada has more rinks per capita then much of the US, but in the northeast (Maine, Vermont, Mass...) and upper midwest (Michigan, Wisconsin, parts of Penn and upstate NY) of the US, the density of rinks is on par with Canada. Add that with the growth of hockey in cold places like Colorado and northern transplant places like Texas and California and you have a growing population of hockey players.
The last demographic that's still untapped in the US is the black and hispanic population. Etem is a black kid from Long Beach, if he succeeds, his example could open the door to that demographic. On the hispanic side, when I first moved to LA, the Kings played at the Forum. The crowd was 100% white. Today I go to games at the Staples Center and I would estimate 20% of the crowd to be hispanic. Although most of the hispanic fans my age probably don't play hockey, you can bet their kids do. All this adds up to a very good future for US hockey.
I don't think there's any question that Canada has more rinks per capita then much of the US, but in the northeast (Maine, Vermont, Mass...) and upper midwest (Michigan, Wisconsin, parts of Penn and upstate NY) of the US, the density of rinks is on par with Canada. Add that with the growth of hockey in cold places like Colorado and northern transplant places like Texas and California and you have a growing population of hockey players.
The last demographic that's still untapped in the US is the black and hispanic population. Etem is a black kid from Long Beach, if he succeeds, his example could open the door to that demographic. On the hispanic side, when I first moved to LA, the Kings played at the Forum. The crowd was 100% white. Today I go to games at the Staples Center and I would estimate 20% of the crowd to be hispanic. Although most of the hispanic fans my age probably don't play hockey, you can bet their kids do. All this adds up to a very good future for US hockey.
No question you're improving. But the day you ever get "better" than us is the day we load up the snowmobiles and march down there to burn down your White House again.
Hockey's cultural importance aside (clearly Canada wins there), I don't think the numbers can be dismissed. When you consider demographics and birth rates on the one hand, and where US hockey has come from over the past 30 years on the other hand, the basic premise of the article is sound. On a per-capita basis Canada is clearly still THE hockey hotbed. But their overall numbers have apparently levelled off, if not starting to decrease.
US growth is exponential by comparison. And what the article is really getting at is, 30 years ago the limited US players came from a handful of northern hockey hotbeds (MA, MN, MI, etc.). The Sunbelt aside (who's better, Calvin deHaan or Oklahoma's Matt Donovan?), here in Philly there was nothing 30 years ago and now you have elite players like Bobby Ryan and JVR from this area. That's significant.
Hockey's cultural importance aside (clearly Canada wins there), I don't think the numbers can be dismissed. When you consider demographics and birth rates on the one hand, and where US hockey has come from over the past 30 years on the other hand, the basic premise of the article is sound. On a per-capita basis Canada is clearly still THE hockey hotbed. But their overall numbers have apparently levelled off, if not starting to decrease.
US growth is exponential by comparison. And what the article is really getting at is, 30 years ago the limited US players came from a handful of northern hockey hotbeds (MA, MN, MI, etc.). The Sunbelt aside (who's better, Calvin deHaan or Oklahoma's Matt Donovan?), here in Philly there was nothing 30 years ago and now you have elite players like Bobby Ryan and JVR from this area. That's significant.
Seriously, it's a lot easier to convey to people outside the area what I mean by just using Philly rather than explaining that it's a few miles across the bridge. Kinda like Hoboken and NYC.
BTW, I'm glad I said 30 years ago and not 20, because I forgot about Mike Richter from Philly (Flourtown, PA, to be exact).
I'm from Toronto. When i was going up, it was all about hockey. All the kids talked about hockey, all the kids played hockey, all the kids had binders and binders of hockey cards...even some of the girls collected hockey cards. There was only one sport really...hockey. But nowadays I dont think its as popular among kids in the big city as it used to be.
It's funny you posted this article cause just the other night I was with a couple buddies, who are both teachers now, and we touched on the topic. They were saying that a lot of the kids they teach couldn't care less about hockey. Appearantly, its all about MMA, NFL and NBA now. Escpecially MMA . It's the new hype because its considered 'trendy and cool' if you like MMA.
Appearantly the kids see hockey as 'their fathers game'. Its passe.
So yea, I cant disagree with the article. The States can definitly catch Canada, just through sheer numbers alone its def a possibilty.
