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Trade: Sharks acquire Winnik, Galiardi, 7th for McGinn, Connolly, Sgarbossa

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Old
02-27-2012, 05:12 PM
  #126
Vaasa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
The most important reason to look at shots allowed instead of goals allowed to evaluate a player's PK performance is that no individual player in the league has spent enough time on the PK this season for the SV% when he's been on the ice to be anything more than noise.

And, by shots allowed, Winnik is (and this isn't hyperbole) the best penalty killer in the NHL.

The Avs are #16 by PK efficiency% but that's all because goaltending has let them down, just like it has this year at even strength. They're a much better team than their record indicates and, again based on shots allowed, they're the 2nd best penalty kill in the league and Winnik has been their most important PKer. There's absolutely no reason he shouldn't step in and become the Sharks' #1 PK forward after learning the system (in fact, maybe it's better that he doesn't...)
It's funny how just last week so many Sharks fans were rejecting the need for players to improve the PK because it was only ranked so low due the screw-ups at the earlier part of the year.

And now people are justifying trading the only physical forward on the team (because we all know Clowe isn't physical any more) for a defensive forward. I really don't care how good Winnik is on the PK. It wasn't a need last week, and it isn't one now.

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02-27-2012, 05:12 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
TJ is pretty good in his own zone, he can be used on PK and he doesn't look out of place there, reading what you guys are posting about McGinn TJ is an upgrade over him in the defensive department.
Yeah, McGinn's lack of awareness and hockey sense in the d zone is his weakness so TJ's an upgrade there.

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02-27-2012, 05:14 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
It's funny how just last week so many Sharks fans were rejecting the need for players to improve the PK because it was only ranked so low due the screw-ups at the earlier part of the year.

And now people are justifying trading the only physical forward on the team (because we all know Clowe isn't physical any more) for a defensive forward. I really don't care how good Winnik is on the PK. It wasn't a need last week, and it isn't one now.
You must have missed the road trip. The PK sucks again

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02-27-2012, 05:15 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
TJ is pretty good in his own zone, he can be used on PK and he doesn't look out of place there, reading what you guys are posting about McGinn TJ is an upgrade over him in the defensive department.
That's fine. But the Sharks don't need an upgrade in the defensive department. If anything they needed more players who were physical and hit. If they wanted to stand a chance of winning the faster skilled teams like Detroit or Vancouver, they needed guys who would consistently hit the opposition and who could put up more offense than guys like Mitchell, Handzus, Ferriero, and Moore.

So I repeat, this move does not help the team. It hurts the team.

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02-27-2012, 05:15 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
You must have missed the road trip. The PK sucks again
Wasnt much on the trip that didnt suck. Well .. maybe other than Marleau lighting it up.

Hoping things get better from now on though.

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02-27-2012, 05:16 PM
  #131
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The PK isn't a major issue anymore, but upgrading it isn't a bad thing. Also replacing our top guys on the PK with bottom-6 players will only improve our top-6 play.

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02-27-2012, 05:16 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Yeah, adding the best penalty killing forward in the NHL who drove possession to a terrific degree on a horrible Avs team last season and did it again this year while being an integral part of one of the best young lines in hockey early on with Landeskog and O'Reilly really makes the Sharks a lot "softer."

Galiardi is a better player than McGinn and McGinn just isn't very good. He's one of just two Sharks forwards underwater in possession and he's playing against terrible opponents. He had a nice hot streak there and McLellan wisely gave him some PP time to raise his stock but it was a mirage. He's marginally better than he was the last three seasons, if at all.

You really think Connolly or Sgarbossa was ever going to make a difference at the NHL level or even come close to being players whose values superseded that of readily available free agents from the scrap heap? You realize these guys went undrafted for a reason, yes?

Some people really have no clue what types of players drive success in the NHL. But I'm glad Doug Wilson isn't one of them.
While I have to reserve judgment on Galiardi until I see him play in teal, your assessment of McGinn is spot-on. McGinn has been on a short leash for a while now, and his 2-way contract he signed last year was basically proof he had fallen out of DW's favor after his play the past 2 seasons culminated in that dubious 5-minute major in game 6 against LA last season.

Prospects are the most overrated ****ing bargaining chips in sports. I swear, people will hold a 19-year old player who has never experienced a day of major league play as if he's the next Pavelski or Couture. I'm not saying Sargossa won't be great, but it's very far from a sure thing he'll be as effective as you think.

The sky is not falling.

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02-27-2012, 05:17 PM
  #133
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FTR, reading the Sharks announcement a little more closely....

Sharks got Anaheim's 2013 7th as part of the deal, not any (additional) 2012 pick.

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02-27-2012, 05:17 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
It's funny how just last week so many Sharks fans were rejecting the need for players to improve the PK because it was only ranked so low due the screw-ups at the earlier part of the year.
Having more PKers is never a bad thing, especially considering Winnik is supposedly one of the best. The more PKers you have, the less you have to rely on your big guys. I'm assuming Pavelski, Marleau, and Couture are still going to PK, but they won't have to nearly as much. And you can take Thornton completely off of it.

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02-27-2012, 05:18 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
FTR, reading the Sharks announcement a little more closely....

Sharks got Anaheim's 2013 7th as part of the deal, not any (additional) 2012 pick.
haha, we couldn't even get a 2012 7th? really?

eeeesh

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02-27-2012, 05:18 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Wasnt much on the trip that didnt suck. Well .. maybe other than Marleau lighting it up.

Hoping things get better from now on though.
On that note, Marleau lights it up in the WCF as well, and we lose. I have just solved all our problems. Get Marleau on a huge schneid. Guaranteed SC. You heard it here first.

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02-27-2012, 05:19 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Having more PKers is never a bad thing, especially considering Winnik is supposedly one of the best. The more PKers you have, the less you have to rely on your big guys. I'm assuming Pavelski, Marleau, and Couture are still going to PK, but they won't have to nearly as much. And you can take Thornton completely off of it.
Also our PK has been trending down since the road trip too. Either way, this should get two of Thornton/Marleau/Pavelski/Couture off the damn PK which is a good thing.

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02-27-2012, 05:20 PM
  #138
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See now these are the times for Les Wynan to hold court. When all we have is stats. Thanks Les

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02-27-2012, 05:20 PM
  #139
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After a little thought I'm okay, for the time being, with this trade. Sucks to see a guy like McGinn go but getting 2 players to replace him helps our depth and hopefully keeps guys competing for roster slots. I hope Galiardi pans out but I'd much rather bank on him than trading a guy like Hodgson for Kassian and MAG.

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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
See now these are the times for Les Wynan to hold court. When all we have is stats. Thanks Les
iirc les wanted to trade McGinn so I think he'll be in favor of this trade. Unless Winnik and Galiardi's shot counts aren't high enough.

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02-27-2012, 05:20 PM
  #140
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Thats one of the biggest wins of this trade. They can both skate, pk, hit and be a pain in the ass. So why is everyone up in arms? This was a good hockey trade.
Well.. we are the softest team in the league and we traded away the one player who brings any intensity on a regular basis.

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02-27-2012, 05:21 PM
  #141
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To be honest, I would be much more okay with this deal if it was Jones instead of Galiardi. I'd be okay with McGinn, Connolly, 2nd.

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02-27-2012, 05:21 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
haha, we couldn't even get a 2012 7th? really?

eeeesh
Isn't 2013 unanimously regarded as deeper than 2012?

I realize that's a stretch but... maybe it's by design? Maybe get a 6th round grade for a 7th round pick?

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02-27-2012, 05:22 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
It's funny how just last week so many Sharks fans were rejecting the need for players to improve the PK because it was only ranked so low due the screw-ups at the earlier part of the year.

And now people are justifying trading the only physical forward on the team (because we all know Clowe isn't physical any more) for a defensive forward. I really don't care how good Winnik is on the PK. It wasn't a need last week, and it isn't one now.
The PK isn't as pressing a need as the "Efficiency %" (which is a flawed metric) would indicate but the Sharks have the best power play in the NHL, are around the 4th-best even strength team and are something like 18th on the PK. Which game state would you try to improve at? And it's not like Winnik is only a PKer - he's great at even strength too.

A lot of good being the most physical player on the team did McGinn. The Sharks were outshot when he was on the ice at a greater rate than any other forward apart from Handzus, who doesn't even belong in the NHL. The percentages were propping McGinn up and it was time to cut bait. He just hasn't improved all that much since coming to San Jose 4 years ago. Galiardi is pretty clearly the better player.

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02-27-2012, 05:23 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Well.. we are the softest team in the league and we traded away the one player who brings any intensity on a regular basis.
Yeah that's what's confusing me...

Pro: Sharks get exactly the type of players they need.

Con: Sharks trade exactly the type of player they need and dip into the prospect puddle.

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02-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
Isn't 2013 unanimously regarded as deeper than 2012?
The following year's draft is always considered deeper than the current one, until 6 months before it.

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02-27-2012, 05:26 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Yeah that's what's confusing me...

Pro: Sharks get exactly the type of players they need.

Con: Sharks trade exactly the type of player they need and dip into the prospect puddle.
The third line has been by far the worst line on the team all season. A lot of that is on Handzus but McGinn wasn't doing a lot to help the team either, despite a flukey SH% (that has since regressed) putting some pucks in the net for him.

He's physical but he isn't nearly effective enough on the forecheck to drive possession and the numbers back that up. Mitchell's a better forechecker than McGinn is.

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02-27-2012, 05:28 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
The following year's draft is always considered deeper than the current one, until 6 months before it.
Touche

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02-27-2012, 05:28 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
The PK isn't as pressing a need as the "Efficiency %" (which is a flawed metric) would indicate but the Sharks have the best power play in the NHL, are around the 4th-best even strength team and are something like 18th on the PK. Which game state would you try to improve at? And it's not like Winnik is only a PKer - he's great at even strength too.

A lot of good being the most physical player on the team did McGinn. The Sharks were outshot when he was on the ice at a greater rate than any other forward apart from Handzus, who doesn't even belong in the NHL. The percentages were propping McGinn up and it was time to cut bait. He just hasn't improved all that much since coming to San Jose 4 years ago. Galiardi is pretty clearly the better player.
I thought the 5on5 possession numbers pretty much sealed the deal for DW/TM. 3rd line possession has pretty much been a blackhole all season.

For others, in some senses I side with Vaasa. I am not happy with the level of DW's roster churn. I realize that there is more to it than that. The churn is a result of the entire makeup of the Sharks org and the aftermath of correcting issues in drafting/development. It is a definite second choice to having the better players through the draft and development.

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02-27-2012, 05:29 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Yeah, adding the best penalty killing forward in the NHL who drove possession to a terrific degree on a horrible Avs team last season and did it again this year while being an integral part of one of the best young lines in hockey early on with Landeskog and O'Reilly really makes the Sharks a lot "softer."

Galiardi is a better player than McGinn and McGinn just isn't very good. He's one of just two Sharks forwards underwater in possession and he's playing against terrible opponents. He had a nice hot streak there and McLellan wisely gave him some PP time to raise his stock but it was a mirage. He's marginally better than he was the last three seasons, if at all.

You really think Connolly or Sgarbossa was ever going to make a difference at the NHL level or even come close to being players whose values superseded that of readily available free agents from the scrap heap? You realize these guys went undrafted for a reason, yes?

Some people really have no clue what types of players drive success in the NHL. But I'm glad Doug Wilson isn't one of them.
And do you realize that stats aren't everything? If you have watched the Sharks for any length of time you should know that will frequently beats skill in the playoffs. The Sharks are a perennial proof of that point. The simple fact is that McGinn knew what role he was to play and was doing extremely well at it. He was the Sharks agitating, hitting, physical presence. Something that Clowe used to be. I really don't care if Winnik is the god of puck possession. He's a one-dimensional defensive specialist who has zero offensive talent. He doesn't hit. He does absolutely nothing other than defensive play. And quite honestly, with Handzuz, Moore, Mitchell, Desjardins, and bunch of prospects at the AHL level who are generally soft and defensive-minded as well, Winnik is 100% completely unneeded. He has no value to the organization. And I will not be surprised if he is not even retained past this season.

Galliardi is basically Moore 2.0, except younger and less skilled. Again, he will not replace what McGinn brought to the table (physical play that wears down the opposition and goal scoring). Again, I don't care what his puck-possession or any other number is. The simple fact is that the Sharks now have ZERO forwards who play a physical game. And it won't matter how good they are with the puck if they are constantly being moved off the puck and physically beaten out of the game (see Couture).

As for the prospects going undrafted, so did Boyle. Here's a simple fact. Yes, prospects may never turn out to be as good as they are in juniors. Yes, they may not make the NHL and if they do they may never be more than 3rd or 4th liners. But the simple fact is that some prospects, whether drafted or not, end up being more than that. And the Sharks as an organization are completely forefeiting the chance to have young, cheap, skilled players in the future by constantly dumping any prospect who even seems like they have talent for rentals and useless "veterans".

Go back and look at the comments by Sharks fans on this very board for guys like Couture after the Sharks drafted him (there were a fair number who said he would be a total bust, and many who said he would never be more than a 3rd liner). Look at the comments on Pavelski, Clowe, Murray, Demers, Braun, and Vlasic. Those are all prospects who were at one time or another written off as having less future value and 3rd-round pick (if even that high) and yet they are all key parts of this teams current and future chances of success.

There is such a thing as opportunity cost, and it's higher than most people want to admit when it comes to prospects.

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02-27-2012, 05:29 PM
  #150
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finding it funny that mcginn is going to make this a tough team.

one player doesnt make you a tough team, guys. i dont really recall mcginn hitting harder than anyone else this year. he leads the team in hits, but for a tough team to be tough everyone has to pitch in a la chicago win.

taking top 6ers off the PK and still having a reliable PK is huge in and of itself. adding a guy that is better than mcginn offensively, with a bigger ceiling, and a 7th round pick is big. the trade isnt genius or anything, and i know how some feel about "trading away the future" but we will cross that bridge when we come to it, and letting potential nhlers filter into other teams is also a risk free way of evaluating them. and DW usually doesnt bring people back because they dont pan out.

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