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[VAN/BUF] Hodgson and Sulzer for Z. Kassian and Gragnani

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02-27-2012, 06:06 PM
  #326
dma0034
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Buffalo fan coming to tell you about MAG and Kassian. While Kassian does has some offensive power a lot of his time in Buffalo (and AHL Rochester) he wasn't what the team wanted. They expected him to be a nasty power forward with a chance at 20 goals every year (think Ryan).... but he didn't check.... probably why the Sabres shipped him (and that they needed a center)

Marc-Andre Gragnani isn't good at all.... but he could change with Vancouver. To say he's limited in his defensive game is saying a lot. I think he has 2 hits all year and despite his +10 has been awful for the Sabres. I hope that in Vancouver they utilize him as a specialist set up defensemen.


Could someone tell me about Sulzer?

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02-27-2012, 06:07 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
We already had Pahlson, we could have sat Hodgson if we had to. We are going to be sitting Kassian. AV isn't going to play him once he makes a couple of mistakes, it'll be Raymond - Pahlsson - Hansen, Manny Lappy Wiese/Bitz.

There is nothing in this trade that will help this playoffs and only stuff that can hurt. If Hodgson still struggled you pull the trigger in the off season.
Faulty logic.

Sit Hodgson? Sure. Sit Kassian? Unlikely with a guy like Wiese/Bitz now competing for a spot. At best Kassian is able to adapt to the system and is competing for a 2nd/3rd line role. Booth could get moved down a line, as Booth is not exactly a defensive gem either.

Kassian has had the best coaching you can expect thus far. You have some of the best hockey minds saying he is a great player.

Kassian is also a first year pro. He was a Jr player last year. Very raw.

'Win now' is a concern, but I dont see how Hodgson was a critical part of 'win now'.

I dont like losing Hodgson either, as he was clearly going to be at least a 2nd line NHL centre. Some calling him a 'superstar' are being silly though.

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02-27-2012, 06:07 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Durr View Post
Does anyone here have a feeling that someone from Cody's camp initiated this? Just from reading Gillis' comments, he didn't flat out deny that he requested a trade, he just offered a 'no comment' and left it at that. It's hard for me to imagine trading away his 'baby' his 1st ever draft pick as a GM for Kassian.
I don't know if you heard Cody's phone interview with TSN right after the deal happened, but he sounded genuinely shocked and bit saddened. This was before he had heard from anyone in management, he said it was actually Tanev who told him that he'd apparently been traded.

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02-27-2012, 06:08 PM
  #329
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**
Meant to quote the response
Then you scratch Hodgson? We all know he's terrible on the wing so don't pretend like h can play tehre. Where do you play Hodgson if your scenario plays out?


Last edited by Spamhuis: 02-27-2012 at 06:11 PM. Reason: quoted wrong post
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02-27-2012, 06:08 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Burrows View Post
Remove cody from the 3rd line C and replace him with Lappy or Manny or Pahlsson.

You now have a third line that can play tough matchups. Cody can't do that.

Now Kesler doesn't have to play shutdown minutes, and his line can concentrate on offense. That's how it helps us win a cup.
Yep. They will actually have a 3rd and 4th line that can play tough match ups. THey also have Reinprecht in the minors that can fill in if LaPierre, Pahlsson or MAlhotra go down to provide stability in that shut down role.

I loved Hodgson as a player but I think we have to look at the situation adn accurately assess it. When you do you realize that Hodgson was only going to get very very selective icetime during the playoffs. After his very good January he had struggled of late and has made some significant errors in the defensive end. At a minimum he was probably going to be dropped to the 4th line. 30 seconds of PP time per powerplay on the second unit is not going to be the difference between a series win and loss.

I still think people are very much selling Kassian short. Power forwards don't tend to come into the AHL and immediately put up 0.5 GPG and point per game numbers without having significant room to grow. I know sabre fans are in the process of denigrating both the players they gave up but what they are saying is not, IMO, reality.

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02-27-2012, 06:09 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by UBCsalmonslayer View Post
prediction: Kassian develops into a premier power forward, ends up scoring 40 goals a season on the Canucks top line, and helps lead the Canucks to their first ever Stanley Cup. You heard it here first.
we all hope you are right.best of luck coho.

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02-27-2012, 06:09 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Burrows View Post
Remove cody from the 3rd line C and replace him with Lappy or Manny or Pahlsson.

You now have a third line that can play tough matchups. Cody can't do that.

Now Kesler doesn't have to play shutdown minutes, and his line can concentrate on offense. That's how it helps us win a cup.
Agreed. That's it in a nutshell.
Kesler and the Sedins wore down by the finals. It was not so much that we needed to match Boston's toghness but that we needed ashutdown third line to take some of the workload of Kesler. Hodgson just didn't fit in that role. The big gamble is whether we got fair value for him.

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02-27-2012, 06:10 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Durr View Post
Does anyone here have a feeling that someone from Cody's camp initiated this? Just from reading Gillis' comments, he didn't flat out deny that he requested a trade, he just offered a 'no comment' and left it at that. It's hard for me to imagine trading away his 'baby' his 1st ever draft pick as a GM for Kassian.
Definately looked like it.

Management probably think 'playoff Lapierre' will be a better two-way player than Hodgson at even strength. Lapierre, Higgins and Hansen definately has the makings of a strong trio. Malhotra and Pahlssson to face tough minutes with a big body winger in Weise/Bitz/Kassian also fits what the Canucks are trying to do.

The Canucks are certainly going to be bigger, tougher and harder to play against. Whether that gives them a better or worse shot at getting through Detroit remains to be seen.

Really hope Gragnani pans out immediately. If not, this is a tough move to digest.

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02-27-2012, 06:10 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Agreed. That's it in a nutshell.
Kesler and the Sedins wore down by the finals. It was not so much that we needed to match Boston's toghness but that we needed ashutdown third line to take some of the workload of Kesler. Hodgson just didn't fit in that role. The big gamble is whether we got fair value for him.
I really hope AV takes the reigns off of Kassian and lets him beast out. Word is Lindy Ruff was very willing to reign in Kassian's aggressiveness.

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02-27-2012, 06:12 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Definately looked like it.

The Canucks probably think 'playoff Lapierre' will be a better two-way player than Hodgson at even strength. Lapierre, Higgins and Hansen definately has the makings of a strong trio. Malhotra and Pahlssson to face tough minutes with a big body winger in Weise/Bitz/Kassian also fits what the Canucks are trying to do.

The Canucks are certainly going to be bigger, tougher and harder to play against. Whether that gives them a better or worse shot at getting through Detroit remains to be seen.

Really hope Gragnani pans out immediately. If not, this is a tough move to digest.
Detroit has to show they can win more than one round too.

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02-27-2012, 06:12 PM
  #336
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Just a quick thought.

With the way AV has handled Hodgson's minutes, was Hodgson really gonna play a big role in the playoffs? In tight games do you really think AV was gonna keep Hodgson on the 3rd line instead of going more defensive with Pahlsson, Malholtra nd Lapierre as 3rd line center options?

If Kassian can play solid 3rd/4th line minutes and lay a hurtin on some players in the playoffs, he will be just as if not more impactful than what Hodgson would've been.

This is definately a risky trade, but if Kassian pans out, the Canucks will have a beast of a player who will arguably be more important to them short and long term than Hodgson (who was buried behind 2 all star calibre centers).

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02-27-2012, 06:13 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Agreed. That's it in a nutshell.
Kesler and the Sedins wore down by the finals. It was not so much that we needed to match Boston's toghness but that we needed ashutdown third line to take some of the workload of Kesler. Hodgson just didn't fit in that role. The big gamble is whether we got fair value for him.
Evaluating both players, I really don't think we did if it's a straight up swap. Cody has 60-80 point potential according to Gary Valk. Kassian is still very much an unknown in terms of his ceiling. Offensively, he'll never be that good, but he can obviously fill other holes. If I'm a Sabres fan I'm loving this deal.

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02-27-2012, 06:13 PM
  #338
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Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kesler Kassian (Hopefully it clicks?)
Higgins Lapierre Hansen (Great in the playoffs, let's hope they score a little more)
Malhotra Pahlsson Raymond (Shutdown line)
Bitz/Weise

Edler Salo
Hamhuis Bieksa
Ballard Tanev
Rome Gragnani
Alberts

Luongo
Schnieder

That's a good playoff line-up if it works out..

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02-27-2012, 06:14 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
what tough power forward? Kassian in the AHL and should probably stay there for now.
Not according to GMMG - he is Vancouver bound.

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02-27-2012, 06:14 PM
  #340
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I am extremely sad to see Cody go, but I welcome the new additions to this team and will hold out judgement for now.

As much as I'll miss Cody, if anyone thinks he was the difference between us winning the cup and getting bounced in the first round they are just kidding themselves.

Let's hope for the best!!

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02-27-2012, 06:15 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by dc View Post
Evaluating both players, I really don't think we did if it's a straight up swap. Cody has 60-80 point potential according to Gary Valk. Kassian is still very much an unknown in terms of his ceiling. Offensively, he'll never be that good, but he can obviously fill other holes. If I'm a Sabres fan I'm loving this deal.
You're really underselling Kassian's offensive potential.

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02-27-2012, 06:15 PM
  #342
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I disagree. We are bounced in the second round this year. Mark my words.
Over the past 17 games, the Canucks have gone 12-1-4.
Over the past 17 games, Hodgson has 5 goals and 2 assists for 7 points.

The Canucks have done fine over the past 1.5 months without Hodgson at his best. Hodgson is nice, but he's not the straw that stirs the drink in Vancouver. Luongo, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Salo, Kesler, Burrows, the Sedins, and arguably Schneider and Booth are all more important players to us this year. It's not like we're Nashville trading away Weber/Suter/Rinne for a bunch of prospects and picks in the heat of a playoff race.

Fact: The Canucks are seeded 1st in the NHL as it stands. Kassian's first game with us is tomorrow night. Let's sit back over the next 19 games and see how this new guy fits in with us.

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02-27-2012, 06:15 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
Just a quick thought.

With the way AV has handled Hodgson's minutes, was Hodgson really gonna play a big role in the playoffs? In tight games do you really think AV was gonna keep Hodgson on the 3rd line instead of going more defensive with Pahlsson, Malholtra nd Lapierre as 3rd line center options?

If Kassian can play solid 3rd/4th line minutes and lay a hurtin on some players in the playoffs, he will be just as if not more impactful than what Hodgson would've been.

This is definately a risky trade, but if Kassian pans out, the Canucks will have a beast of a player who will arguably be more important to them short and long term than Hodgson (who was buried behind 2 all star calibre centers).
Again, it's a big IF. He played 6 minutes in his last game with Buffalo - a team that probably won't even make the playoffs. There's an equal chance that Kassian comes in and fits in perfectly, as there is a chance he comes in and is ineffective.

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02-27-2012, 06:16 PM
  #344
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I just think there's something really odd that we don't know about. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense on different levels.

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02-27-2012, 06:16 PM
  #345
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Ritch Winter says it was a surprise to them.
Rich Winter would lie to his dying mother's face.

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02-27-2012, 06:16 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Not according to GMMG - he is Vancouver bound.
Do you have the full interview? I just caught the bit where Gillis said he wouldn't talk about if Hodgson asked to be traded... missed Gillis take on the trade. Kassian will play the next game?.

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02-27-2012, 06:17 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Orca Smash View Post
You really look at games just for goals? What about preventing goals? Or how about how the goals happen?

The sedins had more goals then lucic or marchand, yet did that translate ?
All those things feed into goals for and goals against, the NHL tallies them up and declares a winner. Ultimately that's all they measure, goals and wins, the sum of the parts = goals/wins. You can get them through toughness or skill, you can defend like a mother ***** or go wide open hockey, you can goon it or finesse it. At the end of the day the team with the most goals still wins no matter how they got there.

The question is will Kassian's size and toughness result in a net gain for the Canucks or a net loss vs Hodgson. TBH we won't know for years. It is even unlikely we learn anything about Kassian this playoffs as I can't see AV taking on a rookie in a new system when he has 5 vets set in stone + Wiese + Bitz + Reinprecht.


Last edited by me2: 02-27-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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02-27-2012, 06:17 PM
  #348
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You're really underselling Kassian's offensive potential.
I don't see him getting PP time on this team, unless he's asked to stand in front of the net the whole time.

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02-27-2012, 06:17 PM
  #349
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Cam Charron nails it:

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2012/02...ding-a-player/

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloatedGuppy View Post
I'd love to see the corsi/zone starts/qoc for the Lapierre/Malhotra third lines of last season versus the Hodgson unit this year. I think people are really underestimating just how sheltered that third line has been this season, and underestimating the spillover effect of that throughout the lineup.
Since Christmas, the team has started taking away offensive zone starts from the second line to give them to the third line because the third line has been so bad territorially. They've been absolutely miserable, hovering around 40% in possession. Having a third line that can actually play defence will give the second line more offensive opportunities.

Only Lapierre and Weise have played softer minutes than Hodgson this season, and Hodgson has 52% OZone starts. He's been about even in Corsi.

Malhotra played the toughest competition on the team last season with 25% zone starts and was -10 in Corsi. Malhotra's third line was far superior to Hodgson's.

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02-27-2012, 06:18 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Durr View Post
I just think there's something really odd that we don't know about. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense on different levels.
Gillis wouldn't confirm or deny that Hodgson's camp asked for a trade. I think the Hodgson/AV situation has reared its ugly head once again.

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