We are buying Gragani really low, pretty much free when you consider that we just gave up Sulzer. A potential offensive dman with speed. If he works out great. If he fails we lost nothing.
Gragani in Buffalo = Ballard in Vancouver. Fans don't want him=dirt cheap.
I think you have to consider this deal with the Hodgson deal. It helps balances out that trade in that we get a guy with potential (right side D as well) for a guy that likely is as good as he'll ever be (a #7/#8 D).
I think you have to consider this deal with the Hodgson deal. It helps balances out that trade in that we get a guy with potential (right side D as well) for a guy that likely is as good as he'll ever be (a #7/#8 D).
Have you seen his corsi numbers? He's amazing! Ignore the fact that he was a healthy scratch on a non playoff team. Just compare him to Ehrhoff and expect him to be great!
Have you seen his corsi numbers? He's amazing! Ignore the fact that he was a healthy scratch on a non playoff team. Just compare him to Ehrhoff and expect him to be great!
meh, Sulzer was a guy that never was going to make the roster unless there were a ton of injuries on the blueline. I never said Gragnani was/can be great, but at least he still has some upside. Cheaper cap hit as well.
I think you have to consider this deal with the Hodgson deal. It helps balances out that trade in that we get a guy with potential (right side D as well) for a guy that likely is as good as he'll ever be (a #7/#8 D).
I actually read that he is much more comfortable on the left side. I think they tried him on the right-side to start the season but it didn't work out.
I don't put a whole lot of stock into what Buffalo fans say, some stock sure, but we've all seen how much fans can scapegoat a guy when he's not having a good season. Just look at some of the reactions here to Raymond not getting traded today. And he's actually playing well for us!
I think he's a good addition, or at the very least a good guy to take a flyer on. Obviously better than anyone we could have called up, and pretty surely better than Sulzer. Very cheap contract, might take another cheap one-way deal in the summer.
I would like to see Edler with Tanev, and Salo with Gragnani. Edler-Salo hasn't looked that fantastic (for them) lately, a brief shakeup could be good.
I don't put a whole lot of stock into what Buffalo fans say, some stock sure, but we've all seen how much fans can scapegoat a guy when he's not having a good season. Just look at some of the reactions here to Raymond not getting traded today. And he's actually playing well for us!
I think he's a good addition, or at the very least a good guy to take a flyer on. Obviously better than anyone we could have called up, and pretty surely better than Sulzer. Very cheap contract, might take another cheap one-way deal in the summer.
I would like to see Edler with Tanev, and Salo with Gragnani. Edler-Salo hasn't looked that fantastic (for them) lately, a brief shakeup could be good.
Plus the fact that their team is/has been a mess all year and like Columbus expectations were raised through the roof with summertime acquisitions.
Gragnani is a beautiful skater.... that's about all he is good for. He'd be better off Figure skating in the Olympics.
To whoever said "Physicality can be taught" ...lol.... Not with this one. Sorry.
But....you guys just need to get about 6 or 7 games of watching him and you'll see why Sabre fans can't stand him.
But... this was a nothing trade ... Nobody wins...nobody loses.
Last year Christian Ehrhoff put up 50 points and was a plus 19. This year he's on a pace for 38 points and is a -5. Derek Roy is producing at about half the pace as last season and well off his typical career numbers. Robyn Regehr is a minus player for the first time since 2002. Paul Gaustad was replaceable because he is on a pace for only 24 points. Ryan Miller has become a sieve.
I think somethng fundamentally fell apart with Buffalo this year.
Last year Christian Ehrhoff put up 50 points and was a plus 19. This year he's on a pace for 38 points and is a -5. Derek Roy is producing at about half the pace as last season and well off his typical career numbers. Robyn Regehr is a minus player for the first time since 2002. Paul Gaustad was replaceable because he is on a pace for only 24 points. Ryan Miller has become a sieve.
I think somethng fundamentally fell apart with Buffalo this year.
Yup, and apparently his name was Marc Andre Gragnani.
Have you seen his corsi numbers? He's amazing! Ignore the fact that he was a healthy scratch on a non playoff team. Just compare him to Ehrhoff and expect him to be great!
Higgins was a healthy scratch on many non-playoff teams over the last few years... as was Lapierre...
This is a Sabres fan coming over to offer some perspective:
I am usually pretty spot on when it comes to judging offensive talent, and this guy has it. The average Sabres fan I find on our boards, or that phones into our radio shows , is incapable offering any insight beyond the glaringly obvious. You will see fans tout Grags as a turnover machine, mainly because of his overtime miscue against PHI and so on and so forth. This is just one example of the average Sabre fan and their tunnel vision.
Some posters have alluded to, the need for MAG to have a change of scenery, which is 100% correct. With the type of talent you have throughout your roster I will put my Rep on the line here, and say
“MAG will have a much greater impact than BZK”
Now any moron can see Kassian’s size and athleticism and recognize his potential is there. With a team like the Canucks he will probably reach this potential, eventually, but it will not happen overnight. MAG during this year’s cup run will play a much larger role in your team’s success than Kass will.
MAG’s defensive spacing and ability to play the puck go unnoticed. Why? Because people are so focused on the physical aspect (Why some fans are crying over us losing Kass) that they fail to see physicality and defense aren’t always a necessity if you can play the position correctly (ala Erhoff). Now the guy is not a *****cat, he is a pro athlete for god sake; but will he being laying men out? Never.
Is he effective at assessing situations (1 on 2’s, 2 on 3’s) you betcha. He had a bad year thus far because he is underutilized and upset because of this, Lindy seemed to take a lot of frustration with the team out on MAGS icetime.
Toughness is so overrated, Goals are where the game is won and lost. Thus, why your team is so successful every year. You have Kass who can throw for your boys now, but besides that and some “post up” moves in the corners, that’s all you will see out of him this year. Grags on the other hand will provide sound defense and an offensive presence for your top 4 and a PP2 QB. Hope this helped a bit. Good luck the rest of the way out!
This is a Sabres fan coming over to offer some perspective:
I am usually pretty spot on when it comes to judging offensive talent, and this guy has it. The average Sabres fan I find on our boards, or that phones into our radio shows , is incapable offering any insight beyond the glaringly obvious. You will see fans tout Grags as a turnover machine, mainly because of his overtime miscue against PHI and so on and so forth. This is just one example of the average Sabre fan and their tunnel vision.
Some posters have alluded to, the need for MAG to have a change of scenery, which is 100% correct. With the type of talent you have throughout your roster I will put my Rep on the line here, and say
“MAG will have a much greater impact than BZK”
Now any moron can see Kassian’s size and athleticism and recognize his potential is there. With a team like the Canucks he will probably reach this potential, eventually, but it will not happen overnight. MAG during this year’s cup run will play a much larger role in your team’s success than Kass will.
MAG’s defensive spacing and ability to play the puck go unnoticed. Why? Because people are so focused on the physical aspect (Why some fans are crying over us losing Kass) that they fail to see physicality and defense aren’t always a necessity if you can play the position correctly (ala Erhoff). Now the guy is not a *****cat, he is a pro athlete for god sake; but will he being laying men out? Never.
Is he effective at assessing situations (1 on 2’s, 2 on 3’s) you betcha. He had a bad year thus far because he is underutilized and upset because of this, Lindy seemed to take a lot of frustration with the team out on MAGS icetime.
Toughness is so overrated, Goals are where the game is won and lost. Thus, why your team is so successful every year. You have Kass who can throw for your boys now, but besides that and some “post up” moves in the corners, that’s all you will see out of him this year. Grags on the other hand will provide sound defense and an offensive presence for your top 4 and a PP2 QB. Hope this helped a bit. Good luck the rest of the way out!
Thanks for your assessment. Most of us are cautiously optimistic that MAG will be a better fit here on the Canucks and also helped by the fact that he and AV do have some history.
Could you also clarify something for us: Can MAG play on the right side (like Ehrhoff), or is he strictly a left-sided dman?
Thanks for your assessment. Most of us are cautiously optimistic that MAG will be a better fit here on the Canucks and also helped by the fact that he and AV do have some history.
Could you also clarify something for us: Can MAG play on the right side (like Ehrhoff), or is he strictly a left-sided dman?
I haven't seen much of his Minor League play and I know the Sabres haven't used him on the right side so I couldn't give you an honest answer. That being said I don't ever put to much stock into R or L sides (Wing or D). Depending on certain offensive cycles, clearly one handed shot is preferred over the other , but any pro athlete, with some reps to familiarize themselves with it, should be able to play both sides IMO.
This is a Sabres fan coming over to offer some perspective:
I am usually pretty spot on when it comes to judging offensive talent, and this guy has it. The average Sabres fan I find on our boards, or that phones into our radio shows , is incapable offering any insight beyond the glaringly obvious. You will see fans tout Grags as a turnover machine, mainly because of his overtime miscue against PHI and so on and so forth. This is just one example of the average Sabre fan and their tunnel vision.
Some posters have alluded to, the need for MAG to have a change of scenery, which is 100% correct. With the type of talent you have throughout your roster I will put my Rep on the line here, and say
“MAG will have a much greater impact than BZK”
Now any moron can see Kassian’s size and athleticism and recognize his potential is there. With a team like the Canucks he will probably reach this potential, eventually, but it will not happen overnight. MAG during this year’s cup run will play a much larger role in your team’s success than Kass will.
MAG’s defensive spacing and ability to play the puck go unnoticed. Why? Because people are so focused on the physical aspect (Why some fans are crying over us losing Kass) that they fail to see physicality and defense aren’t always a necessity if you can play the position correctly (ala Erhoff). Now the guy is not a *****cat, he is a pro athlete for god sake; but will he being laying men out? Never.
Is he effective at assessing situations (1 on 2’s, 2 on 3’s) you betcha. He had a bad year thus far because he is underutilized and upset because of this, Lindy seemed to take a lot of frustration with the team out on MAGS icetime.
Toughness is so overrated, Goals are where the game is won and lost. Thus, why your team is so successful every year. You have Kass who can throw for your boys now, but besides that and some “post up” moves in the corners, that’s all you will see out of him this year. Grags on the other hand will provide sound defense and an offensive presence for your top 4 and a PP2 QB. Hope this helped a bit. Good luck the rest of the way out!
Thanks so much for this post.
It was getting frustrating reading all those scapegoating posts from Buffalo fans. Clearly, this kid became a whipping boy for a certain subset of the Sabres fanbase who are looking for someone to blame for the struggles of their team.
I'm hoping that the perceived regressions in MAG's game have much more to do with his environment (ie: a Sabres club that struggled teamwide) than with any downgrade in his individual ability and player potential.
Seems like the type of player you'd expect to struggle when the house is falling down all around him. Defensive lapses and turnovers stand out but these things happen to young, offensive defensemen. When that young player is skating with a struggling team during a a disappointing, frustrating, heartbreaking, and maddening season, defensive miscues appear even more glaring.
I'm very optimistic that a change in scenery will help MAG get back on track to becoming that player his playoff series and AHL success suggested he could be. I also think that the Canucks will try to protect him with a defensively responsible partner and also use him in situations that play to his strengths.
I agree that toughness can be overrated. I don't really think too many Canucks fans are worried about MAG not being a bruiser. Chris Tanev* (steady, poised young D who's solid defensively but could improve his offensive game) isn't very physical either but we certainly appreciate the strengths he brings to his game.
*Interesting compare/contrast between the strengths and styles of Tanev and Gragnani in today's Vancouver Sun ("Young projects are polar opposites patrolling blue-line", SPORTS, C7).
Physicality isn't a concern. I think we're more worried about the defensive lapses and liabilities that seem to be a part of MAG's game, even when he's playing well. That said, a lot of the defensive side of the game can be taught and the Canucks also have systems that allow the unit on the ice to compensate and cover for offensive defensemen.
I'm excited to see what this kid can do on a top-level team that places a high value on puckmoving ability, skating, first passes, and pushing the puck into the attacking zone. MAG seems so have an impressive skillset and the natural offensive abilities that can't really be taught. He should benefit from Bowness's defensive tutelage and with the team's focus on player development (and continuing skills training).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsmietana
I haven't seen much of his Minor League play and I know the Sabres haven't used him on the right side so I couldn't give you an honest answer. That being said I don't ever put to much stock into R or L sides (Wing or D). Depending on certain offensive cycles, clearly one handed shot is preferred over the other , but any pro athlete, with some reps to familiarize themselves with it, should be able to play both sides IMO.
You would hope this was the case but, unfortunately, Canucks fans have seen a long list of LD's who have struggled when tried on the right side. It's become one of the glaring weaknesses on this team and, given the injury risks that come with Sami Salo, the defensive depth down the right side has become an ever-present concern. That's why so many of us were excited by the prospect of MAG being able to play RD. I'm still hoping we can get some confirmation that this player is comfortable on both sides. Right side ability is highly valued on this team, given the composition of the D corps.
Gragani has tremendous Corsi numbers 5 on 5 this season, best of Buffalo's d-men.
Essentially for every 60 minutes of ice-time Gragani is on the ice for 7 more shots for than against. That's massive, that's better than all Canuck d-men except Hamhuis, Bieksa and Edler.
His Corsi numbers are nearly identical to those of Ehrhoff in Ehrhoff's last year with the Sharks when he was dubbed "Errorhoff".
Gragani 2011/2012 (7.25)
Ehrhoff 2008/2009 (7.61)
Mind you Ehrhoff was further along in his development and playing more icetime but i'm positive the Canucks look very hard at Corsi numbers.
Kassian also has FAR better Corsi #'s than Hodgson has had.
He plays sheltered minutes in the offensive zone. Exactly like Hodgson. He is a specialist. Considering that the Canucks seem to get less than a powerplay a game now I don't see how he fits in here.
"Uh extremely happy and motivated to join the canucks. Everyone is afraid of this team the last couple of year and I'm glad to be joining them. I was extremely happy when I was told I was traded, and I can't wait to get going".
Duthie asked: Were you happy particularly about being traded to the canucks or was it because you were frustrated with the way things were going in Buffalo this year?
"Yeah I was frustrated and I think there were a lot of people that were frustrated, we were supposed to have a good team this year, and supposed to be in a higher position in the east and we couldn't get it done until now. I was frustrated like many of my teammates but now Ive moved on with a fresh start"
I think one of the big problems with Gragnani in Buffalo is that (from BehindTheNet - where he is listed as a LW) his primary defensive partner has been Christian Ehrhoff.
I hesitate to criticize a guy with over 500 wins as a coach, but that's probably half the problem. Ehrhoff and Gragnani are both defensemen who are prone to taking risks with the puck. Neither is very physical and both are prone to giveaways and mistakes with the puck. That would have been like pairing Ehrhoff and Ballard.
If you look at the video of that OT giveaway to Giroux, Ehrhoff is on the far boards. When your defensive partner pinches down on the boards, you have to rotate back to the middle of the ice. The D-to-D pass is supposed to be a safety valve, but not if you force him to throw it across the entire width of the ice. Still a bad pass by Gragnani, but had Ehrhoff been in a more defensive position, there would have been no giveaway.
Most coaches like to pair more adventuresome defensemen with a more defensively responsible stay at home type guy. In Vancouver, Ehrhoff was paired with Edler or Salo - both of whom are very sound defensively. I don't know what the pairings will be in Vancouver yet. Bieksa and Hamhuis won't be broken up. As a LHer Gragnani will probably work with Salo or Tanev where he shouldn't be so exposed. he could also replace Hamhuis on the 2nd unit PP.
I think one of the big problems with Gragnani in Buffalo is that (from BehindTheNet - where he is listed as a LW) his primary defensive partner has been Christian Ehrhoff.
I hesitate to criticize a guy with over 500 wins as a coach, but that's probably half the problem. Ehrhoff and Gragnani are both defensemen who are prone to taking risks with the puck. Neither is very physical and both are prone to giveaways and mistakes with the puck. That would have been like pairing Ehrhoff and Ballard.
If you look at the video of that OT giveaway to Giroux, Ehrhoff is on the far boards. When your defensive partner pinches down on the boards, you have to rotate back to the middle of the ice. The D-to-D pass is supposed to be a safety valve, but not if you force him to throw it across the entire width of the ice. Still a bad pass by Gragnani, but had Ehrhoff been in a more defensive position, there would have been no giveaway.
Most coaches like to pair more adventuresome defensemen with a more defensively responsible stay at home type guy. In Vancouver, Ehrhoff was paired with Edler or Salo - both of whom are very sound defensively. I don't know what the pairings will be in Vancouver yet. Bieksa and Hamhuis won't be broken up. As a LHer Gragnani will probably work with Salo or Tanev where he shouldn't be so exposed. he could also replace Hamhuis on the 2nd unit PP.
Anyone paired with Erhrhoff will look bad. This is his playoff statistics in the 2011 playoffs. He was the worst minus player on the team. That has got to say something about his responsibilities defensively...after that he demanded we pay him 5 million per year...
That would have been like pairing Ehrhoff and Ballard.
We've already seen what a pairing of Ballard-Bieksa looked like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flack
Anyone paired with Erhrhoff will look bad. This is his playoff statistics in the 2011 playoffs. He was the worst minus player on the team. That has got to say something about his responsibilities defensively...after that he demanded we pay him 5 million per year...
