Let's take a step back, cool off for a few minutes, have a meal, watch some TV, sleep on it, wake up, shower, get dressed, have breakfast... then decide whether or not you really want to make a thread.
Let's take a step back, cool off for a few minutes, have a meal, watch some TV, sleep on it, wake up, shower, get dressed, have breakfast... then decide whether or not you really want to make a thread.
I don't know what time zone you're on but those things have been done already... In all seriousness, it may come down to that or the franchise moving
I'm not going to lie, and I'm probably one of the more even-headed people around here, but my first response to this thread was:
**** you.
Now, having said that, JT just commited long term. As ridiculous as we are, we're nowhere near the train wreck that Columbus is. We have a direction, even if we're trying to take the longest possible amount of time to get there.
Even if we add nothing, in 2-3 years this team will be stacked with talent. We'll be a good team. Not having done anything to supplement the rebuild or adding enough payroll will put us at risk of not potentially becoming a great team (or shedding years off of our misery), but we'll be a good team no matter what. A playoff team. John Tavares will be a young man still when his contract is up. If we're out in the 1st round for the last few years of his contract, I'm sure he'll just go elsewhere then.
There's literally nothing, except for the squabbling of idiots on the other side of the border that get paid to talk when nobody should listen, that suggests that JT is unhappy, or doesn't want to be here.
Can that change? Of course. A lot of things can change. That's obviously the point of your thread, but the timing of this is rather pointless and the comparison with Nash really isn't a good one (because of said direction. It's obvious we're in a slow rebuild. Columbus, on the other hand, is obviously run by people who don't understand what it takes to build a team at all or how different pieces should fit together.)
I look at every weakness on our team and I see a good prospect (or multiples of them) that was picked to overcome our organizational weaknesses at the NHL level.
I'm not going to lie, and I'm probably one of the more even-headed people around here, but my first response to this thread was:
**** you.
Now, having said that, JT just commited long term. As ridiculous as we are, we're nowhere near the train wreck that Columbus is. We have a direction, even if we're trying to take the longest possible amount of time to get there.
Even if we add nothing, in 2-3 years this team will be stacked with talent. We'll be a good team. Not having done anything to supplement the rebuild or adding enough payroll will put us at risk of not potentially becoming a great team (or shedding years off of our misery), but we'll be a good team no matter what. A playoff team. John Tavares will be a young man still when his contract is up. If we're out in the 1st round for the last few years of his contract, I'm sure he'll just go elsewhere then.
There's literally nothing, except for the squabbling of idiots on the other side of the border that get paid to talk when nobody should listen, that suggest that JT is unhappy, or doesn't want to be here.
Can that change? Of course. A lot of things can change. That's obviously the point of your thread, but the timing of this is rather pointless and the comparison with Nash really isn't a good one (because of said direction. It's obvious we're in a slow rebuild.)
,
Mitch
Very well stated Mitch. I'm in complete agreement.
Personally, Tavares will be a complete monster in 2 years. I don't think there is any way the Isles won't be a good team because he'll be on it.
I was going to close this thread, but I'll give it a chance.
within a few years the arena situation will be settled one way or another. Hopefully that means spending more on payroll as well. hopefully that means a better team. so no, i don't think this will turn into a Nash situation.
Very well stated Mitch. I'm in complete agreement.
Personally, Tavares will be a complete monster in 2 years. I don't think there is any way the Isles won't be a good team because he'll be on it.
I was going to close this thread, but I'll give it a chance.
Thanks. I'm just glad you're looking at it because I could see this going downhill really, really fast. Heck, even I opened up with a "**** you". That's pretty bad! That really was my initial response that formed in my brain.
I added a bit to my post. I look at what's wrong with our NHL roster and I see many quality prospects that are going to trickle up here to fix those problems. It just really will take 2-3 years if nothing else is done. We also have multiples of these guys, at least at forward, so the chances of guys panning out increases.
Prospect-wise: We've got two big bodied centers with talent. A fireplug 3rd/4th line center. We've got two big bodied wingers with talent. We've got a high end center/playmaking winger. We've got some talent on the backline and talent in goal. We're really just missing that high end guy 6'2" 220lbs all around #1 defenseman and a stud shutdown guy with similar size.
We'll be in pretty good shape 2-3 years down the road as long as nothing unforeseen happens. We'd be in great shape next year if we could find a way to add to the TOP and bottom of our NHL lineup (while making a key trade to change our overall mix at forward.)
Thanks. I'm just glad you're looking at it because I could see this going downhill really, really fast. Heck, even I opened up with a "**** you". That's pretty bad! That really was my initial response that formed in my brain.
I added a bit to my post. I look at what's wrong with our NHL roster and I see many quality prospects that are going to trickle up here to fix those problems. It just really will take 2-3 years if nothing else is done. We also have multiples of these guys, at least at forward, so the chances of guys panning out increases.
Prospect-wise: We've got two big bodied centers with talent. A fireplug 3rd/4th line center. We've got two big bodied wingers with talent. We've got a high end center/playmaking winger. We've got some talent on the backline and talent in goal. We're really just missing that high end guy 6'2" 220lbs all around #1 defenseman and a stud shutdown guy with similar size.
We'll be in pretty good shape 2-3 years down the road as long as nothing unforeseen happens. We'd be in great shape next year if we could find a way to add to the TOP and bottom of our NHL lineup (while making a key trade to change our overall mix at forward.)
,
Mitch
It's very clear to me that this team is committed to an 8 year plan as opposed to the 5 year plan that most want. Wang is just not going to spend money and the Isles will continue with their 'mad genius' cap circumvention. Draft, draft, draft. That's the only way this team is going to add any real talent and I do love your 'trickle up talent' idea.
When D-Day comes in 2015, this team should be a good team. If this team moves, I think they'll be the new age Quebec Nordiques and the new host city is going to be really happy. It's kind of ironic that Quebec City is a definite possibility for relocation if that day ever comes. Hopefully, something will be worked out and we won't have to worry about that.
I kind of see us as the new St. Louis Blues or more accurately, I hope we are. We sure are stockpiling the prospects like they did and held onto them for dear life. The bigger talent base and the 'redundancy of talent' that you described guarantees that a couple of the prospects will pan out - it's just simple probability. I've lowered my expectations for the organization so I don't expect them to do anything to speed up the rebuild, so I agree that this team will be a good team if you just leave it alone and keep doing what they are doing. Tavares will NOT be the next Nash.
Thanks. I'm just glad you're looking at it because I could see this going downhill really, really fast. Heck, even I opened up with a "**** you". That's pretty bad! That really was my initial response that formed in my brain.
I added a bit to my post. I look at what's wrong with our NHL roster and I see many quality prospects that are going to trickle up here to fix those problems. It just really will take 2-3 years if nothing else is done. We also have multiples of these guys, at least at forward, so the chances of guys panning out increases.
Prospect-wise: We've got two big bodied centers with talent. A fireplug 3rd/4th line center. We've got two big bodied wingers with talent. We've got a high end center/playmaking winger. We've got some talent on the backline and talent in goal. We're really just missing that high end guy 6'2" 220lbs all around #1 defenseman and a stud shutdown guy with similar size.
We'll be in pretty good shape 2-3 years down the road as long as nothing unforeseen happens. We'd be in great shape next year if we could find a way to add to the TOP and bottom of our NHL lineup (while making a key trade to change our overall mix at forward.)
,
Mitch
I dunno, prospects are prospects. They can all crap out - unlikely - but it is also unlikely they all pan out like you appear to hope for here. If less than half pan out we will be in trouble, and it will take a bunch of time before we know. In the interim period what happens?
Currently we have one first line player in Tavares. He gets abused almost nightly because our team is a bunch of semi skilled *******, and because Martin skates on a different line. If he is lucky enough to be on the ice with Hamonic and Travis steps up for him then we lose our best defenseman for 5, and maybe 10. Meanwhile he is marooned with guys who go invisible if he isn't having a Tavares game. How long does that go on for before he gets fed up with it?
There really is no excuse at this point Mitch for Tavares having to put up with being treated like a complete ***** while his girlfriends all stand around letting it happen. There is also no excuse for not giving him something besides two significantly flawed wings to play with. Really, who gives a crap if we have to move Bailey or Kyle or both to get in a decent wing for John? The results will outweigh even the wildest ceiling result either Bailey or Kyle could offer on their own. This is John's team, and maybe they find their games in a few years. Big wup. John's game is now, and he shouldn't have to wait for them to grow up.
I see Nash getting flayed in here and I have to think some of these folks need to revisit history, because Nash could have told Columbus, who sucked since forever, to go screw itself but didn't for more than a few years. Then when you have management so bad that everyone in the universe knows they suck, and they get provided unquestionable protection worthy of Bowman and Arbor combined by a moronic ownership and you know you are in for another decade of going no where with really piss poor asset management, how can anyone fault you for wanting to leave?
Nash has been with Columbus for 9 years. All 9 of those years have been a circus which still hasn't produced anything close to a playoff team. How long do you listen to goofballs promise you they will build around you, and fumble the ball this bad? In 9 years even I could have built him a killer team via drafting alone. Yet Rick is the bad guy? Come on, you guys need to cut Rick some slack. You also need to wonder what it would take to anger anyone not named Tavares, let alone John. How many times of being told, "Oh, we want the playoffs this year and will build around you, etc..." does it take before you say, "Hey, I think you've been ************ me. I don't like people who lie to me about my future."
I think every player has a tolerance level to being bull****ted by an organization. But of course, it wouldn't hurt if the owner and GM actually came through on their promises, even once, to show the kind of commitment to John and the others that they keep swearing they have, but fail to show. The proof is in the pudding, and since John's been here that's exactly what Wang & Snow have have given John, a target on his back, orders not to protect him, and AHL callups for depth. How many times of that being paraded out as "We want to win, really we do," would you tolerate before you said you'd had it with their empty lies? I mean, it is wildly insulting to all of our intelligences at this point.
Last edited by A Pointed Stick: 02-27-2012 at 05:41 PM.
As ridiculous as we are, we're nowhere near the train wreck that Columbus is. We have a direction, even if we're trying to take the longest possible amount of time to get there.
This is the only thing we need to know. We at least have a direction.
Through the last 9 years Columbus had nothing other than Nash. Poor drafting, poor grooming of prospects, poor coaching. Columbus is what an Islanders nightmare should be but at least we have a respectable talent pool and our prospects are coming along nice and will contribute soon.
Isles are not even close to the condition of the Jackets.
I feel for their fans.
Garth Snow has a course of action and a plan that he is exercising. Fans may not like it, but it is a plan. It coincides perfectly with the fact that the owner does now/wont spend more then he has to until the arena situation is handled.
When Wang came in he spent lots of cash — even if it was spent on the wrong players...so saying he wont ever spend is foolish. But he wont do it until the arena issue is resolved.
Isles have a very deep pool of prospects, many of whom have yet to arrive on the NHL stage. Prospects may not translate to wins, but it is the best, and only way, to build a successful organization. Time and again, the teams who win the cup do so with a core group of players assembled through the draft. Snow will need to add to that core. He was unable to do so this past summer. If the arena deal is not resolved by July 1, the team will be fairly quiet. If by some miracle there is movement on a new arena/new home for Isles, then things could change rapidly.
There is Charles Wang, and then there is Scott Howson!!!!! (even though he is not the owner, he runs the show). Even Wang cant reach the reign of stupidity, Howson has reached today.
I dunno, prospects are prospects. They can all crap out - unlikely - but it is also unlikely they all pan out like you appear to hope for here. If less than half pan out we will be in trouble, and it will take a bunch of time before we know. In the interim period what happens?
Currently we have one first line player in Tavares. He gets abused almost nightly because our team is a bunch of semi skilled *******, and because Martin skates on a different line. If he is lucky enough to be on the ice with Hamonic and Travis steps up for him then we lose our best defenseman for 5, and maybe 10. Meanwhile he is marooned with guys who go invisible if he isn't having a Tavares game. How long does that go on for before he gets fed up with it?
There really is no excuse at this point Mitch for Tavares having to put up with being treated like a complete ***** while his girlfriends all stand around letting it happen. There is also no excuse for not giving him something besides two significantly flawed wings to play with. Really, who gives a crap if we have to move Bailey or Kyle or both to get in a decent wing for John? The results will outweigh even the wildest ceiling result either Bailey or Kyle could offer on their own. This is John's team, and maybe they find their games in a few years. Big wup. John's game is now, and he shouldn't have to wait for them to grow up.
I see Nash getting flayed in here and I have to think some of these folks need to revisit history, because Nash could have told Columbus, who sucked since forever, to go screw itself but didn't for more than a few years. Then when you have management so bad that everyone in the universe knows they suck, and they get provided unquestionable protection worthy of Bowman and Arbor combined by a moronic ownership and you know you are in for another decade of going no where with really piss poor asset management, how can anyone fault you for wanting to leave?
Nash has been with Columbus for 9 years. All 9 of those years have been a circus which still hasn't produced anything close to a playoff team. How long do you listen to goofballs promise you they will build around you, and fumble the ball this bad? In 9 years even I could have built him a killer team via drafting alone. Yet Rick is the bad guy? Come on, you guys need to cut Rick some slack. You also need to wonder what it would take to anger anyone not named Tavares, let alone John. How many times of being told, "Oh, we want the playoffs this year and will build around you, etc..." does it take before you say, "Hey, I think you've been ************ me. I don't like people who lie to me about my future."
I think every player has a tolerance level to being bull****ted by an organization. But of course, it wouldn't hurt if the owner and GM actually came through on their promises, even once, to show the kind of commitment to John and the others that they keep swearing they have, but fail to show. The proof is in the pudding, and since John's been here that's exactly what Wang & Snow have have given John, a target on his back, orders not to protect him, and AHL callups for depth. How many times of that being paraded out as "We want to win, really we do," would you tolerate before you said you'd had it with their empty lies? I mean, it is wildly insulting to all of our intelligences at this point.
Tavares hasn't been getting teed up like he was the last couple of seasons. The fact that we've now seen him stand up for himself, pathetic that he has to, is also reassuring to me. Sadly, it's mostly his own doing and nothing we've done to protect him. It's not like we're disagreeing with how things have been handled. It's also not like I'm making up excuses for previous or future behavior of the franchise.
We all know that there isn't a legitimate hockey excuse for the slow-slow rebuild. I think it's pretty obvious that we already know the economic one that is being played out.
While I agree that prospects don't necessarily pan out, we have a lot of quality ones coming along and they're coming alone quite nicely. Sure, all of them could somehow never pan out, but it's more likely that we'll be fine. I mean, I'm basically stating that I expect us to be a good team. It's not like I'm raising the bar that high. The risk that we're taking is that we'll lose out (literally) on being a great team, or never add enough payroll to get us to the next level from that point.
We've been drafting well enough and basically adding each season to our pool without losing much. Our NHL players are better now than when JT was drafted. Our prospects are better, as well. It's slow, painfully slow, but it's progressing.
There are different types of metamorphosis. We're obviously going through the gradual kind. I think we're now the 3rd instar. I'm measuring our actual growth from the day JT was drafted. We'll eventually reach adulthood, but it's going to take a few more molts than we would have liked (and it may not be as satisfying, or as cool, as a complete metamorphosis.)
,
