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Old
03-07-2012, 10:38 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Ton of minutes?!!! In his current condition he can't play even 10 minutes a game without being a liability.
Gain experience? Yeah, being pushed around by strong men, misplay the puck, being behind the play most of the time is a great experience! Zherdev had really established himself as an NHL star this way.

Can anybody explain me WHY most of you think that playing a kid who is NOT ready for the NHL is a good thing for his development? I brought a bunch examples of the guys that were held back for a few years and became a stars. If that was not enough - here's another one. One of the biggest stars in this league Claude Giroux played less than 10 NHL games till the age of 21. Looks like nobody ruined his career.
Where is it coming from - play the kid no matter what?!!!
I think ice time to help that development is part of the issue, sitting in the press box isn't giving him any experience. The games don't count for anything other than pride so it's not like these games are pressure packed.

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03-07-2012, 11:04 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I think ice time to help that development is part of the issue, sitting in the press box isn't giving him any experience. The games don't count for anything other than pride so it's not like these games are pressure packed.
What's the rush?

I'd rather he have quality experience, playing bigger minutes when he's ready and capable. I'm not sure what you can learn being pushed around constantly and unable to protect the puck, possess the puck or create any kind of space.

Being in the press box doesn't stop Johansen from learning. One would hope he's watching what's going on down on the sheet and learning he big picture rather than pouting like some of the fans that he's not down there instead of this guy or that guy.

Honestly, the only reason he's even here is that he can't be in the A. You want him in the top six? Who does he replace? Who is he playing better than to take the spot away?

Why are we trying to get the guy to be a star by the time he's 21? Worse, why are some so eager to hand it to him on a platter? Have we learned nothing about developing talent around here?

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03-07-2012, 11:06 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I think ice time to help that development is part of the issue, sitting in the press box isn't giving him any experience. The games don't count for anything other than pride so it's not like these games are pressure packed.
I completely disagree.
I used to play some hockey and some musical instruments. In both cases watching the best you gain a LOT of experience. My buddy was one of the best guitar players in the city and I gained much more experience sitting next to him, watching Garry Moore concert and listening to his explanations than when I just played with him. I still sucked though cause I was lazy and tried to do too many things.
Same could be said about hockey. How many NHL games RyJo saw live prior to this season? I suppose he didn't have a lot of chances to see it. "A wise person learns from the mistakes of others, a fool learns from his own mistakes". Give RyJo a chance to be wise and not pile on his own bad experience and mistakes. Again. This is the NHL, not a practice squad or educational program. Don't play the guy if he's not ready to play. Don't break the guy's mentality like you did it with Zherdev. Excess of playing time at the beginning of his career was one of the main reasons for his failure in the NHL.


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03-07-2012, 11:17 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by SuperGenius View Post
What's the rush?

I'd rather he have quality experience, playing bigger minutes when he's ready and capable. I'm not sure what you can learn being pushed around constantly and unable to protect the puck, possess the puck or create any kind of space.

Being in the press box doesn't stop Johansen from learning. One would hope he's watching what's going on down on the sheet and learning he big picture rather than pouting like some of the fans that he's not down there instead of this guy or that guy.

Honestly, the only reason he's even here is that he can't be in the A. You want him in the top six? Who does he replace? Who is he playing better than to take the spot away?

Why are we trying to get the guy to be a star by the time he's 21? Worse, why are some so eager to hand it to him on a platter? Have we learned nothing about developing talent around here?
This is in general the better wording of my point.

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03-07-2012, 11:31 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Fred Glover View Post
So if we play him we lose more games?

In other pro sports, kids develop at the major league level. It's called a youth movement. Look at the 95 Indians, they played a bunch of young players who developed together. It happens in other sports. Why not hockey? What do we have to lose? If he has talent, which he does, then turn him loose. If not, he should have been sent back to juniors. If there is nothing left for him to learn in juniors, then he should play in the NHL. It's called player development.

Zherdev and Johannsen are two different players. To compare the two is not fair to Ryan
It looks strange for me that comparing MLB team to the NHL team is OK wile comparing 2 different NHL players drafted by the same franchise isn't fair. I'm not considering baseball as a sport at all. Maybe I'm wrong here, but that's how most Europeans look at it.

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03-07-2012, 11:36 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
This is in general the better wording of my point.
There is merit to both your and SG comments, that is probably part of the reason Richards is scratching him. I'd like to add that at this stage of the season with little pressure on the team under the current circumstances I don't see how playing Johansen two or three games per scratch is going to stunt his development. I'm not sure of the ratio since the ASG but I think he has sat around 10 games so far. If he gets scratched to much that can impact confidence too, he was in a unique situation this season being to good for the jrs. but not quite ready for the NHL..


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03-08-2012, 01:00 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Glover View Post
So if we play him we lose more games?

In other pro sports, kids develop at the major league level. It's called a youth movement. Look at the 95 Indians, they played a bunch of young players who developed together. It happens in other sports. Why not hockey? What do we have to lose? If he has talent, which he does, then turn him loose. If not, he should have been sent back to juniors. If there is nothing left for him to learn in juniors, then he should play in the NHL. It's called player development.

Zherdev and Johannsen are two different players. To compare the two is not fair to Ryan
It's a common myth that the 1995 Indians were a bunch of young guys who came together; the Indians were actually a platoon-heavy team.

Behind the plate, Tony Pena (pushing 40) platooned with Sandy Alomar, who was 29. At first, Paul Sorrento (29) and Herbert Perry (25) platooned. Baerga (26), Vizquel (28), and Thome (24) filled out the everyday infield; all three were too valuable to take out, and when they came out, utilitymen like Espinoza (33) could fill in. Albert Belle (28) and Kenny Lofton (28) played the outfield with Manny Ramirez (23), with Wayne Kirby (31) filling in. At DH was Eddie Murray (39) and Dave Winfield (43).

The rotation featured El Presidente (40) and Orel Hershiser (36), with Charles Nagy (28), Mark Clark (27), and Chad Ogea (24). And out of the bullpen were Jose Mesa (29), Eric Plunk (31), Julian Tavarez (22), Jim Poole (29), and Paul Assenmacher (34).

In the AL, Cleveland had the 5th-oldest position players and 4th-oldest pitching staff. The 1997 team was 3rd-oldest in each.

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03-08-2012, 01:14 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
There is merit to both your and SG comments, that is probably part of the reason Richards is scratching him. I'd like to add that at this stage of the season with little pressure on the team under the current circumstances I don't see how playing Johansen two or three games per scratch is going to stunt his development. I'm not sure of the ratio since the ASG but I think he has sat around 10 games so far. If he gets scratched to much that can impact confidence too, he was in a unique situation this season being to good for the jrs. but not quite ready for the NHL..
In January he played in 10 out of 12 games.
In February he played in 7 out of 13.
In March he will play in 2nd out of 4 tonight.
Speaking about confidence. He won't gain any "being pushed around constantly and unable to protect the puck, possess the puck or create any kind of space".
When Giroux was celebrating his 20th birthday he was a QMJHL player and played in his 10th NHL game only when he was 21. On the other hand Sam Gagner has been playing since he was 18 and he had 2 full NHL seasons under his belt at the age of 20. For some reason his game hasn't improved that much since his NHL debut, he basically stayed at the same level all those years.
CBJ took so much heat for rushing prospect in the past and now when they don't rush RyJo suddenly patience becomes a bad thing.
Even today the whining about RyJo's playing time has filled most of the threads on these boards. And nobody could reasonably explain why extended ice-time is a necessity for his proper development. That is kind of annoying.

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03-08-2012, 01:37 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
In January he played in 10 out of 12 games.
In February he played in 7 out of 13.
In March he will play in 2nd out of 4 tonight.
Speaking about confidence. He won't gain any "being pushed around constantly and unable to protect the puck, possess the puck or create any kind of space".
When Giroux was celebrating his 20th birthday he was a QMJHL player and played in his 10th NHL game only when he was 21. On the other hand Sam Gagner has been playing since he was 18 and he had 2 full NHL seasons under his belt at the age of 20. For some reason his game hasn't improved that much since his NHL debut, he basically stayed at the same level all those years.
CBJ took so much heat for rushing prospect in the past and now when they don't rush RyJo suddenly patience becomes a bad thing.
Even today the whining about RyJo's playing time has filled most of the threads on these boards. And nobody could reasonably explain why extended ice-time is a necessity for his proper development. That is kind of annoying.
All of that makes perfect sense, biz, but...Aaron Johnson? Really? That is beyond annoying!

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03-08-2012, 01:39 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Even today the whining about RyJo's playing time has filled most of the threads on these boards.
One man whining is another mans "being critical" or even "concerned". I'm less concerned about line and ice time as opposed to things like being scratched constantly. Especially at home where you can control match ups.

Quote:
And nobody could reasonably explain why extended ice-time is a necessity for his proper development. That is kind of annoying.
Extended ice time? No reason I can see that he has to have top six minutes. Having said that I wonder if they are working on his conditioning, hard, if he's not on the ice. Based on what I've seen on the ice, I'm not sure his conditioning has improved that much.

If you aren't playing every night, you can be working on your strength and conditioning. I wonder what their plans were on his development from day one.

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03-08-2012, 01:42 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
In January he played in 10 out of 12 games.
In February he played in 7 out of 13.
In March he will play in 2nd out of 4 tonight.
Speaking about confidence. He won't gain any "being pushed around constantly and unable to protect the puck, possess the puck or create any kind of space".
When Giroux was celebrating his 20th birthday he was a QMJHL player and played in his 10th NHL game only when he was 21. On the other hand Sam Gagner has been playing since he was 18 and he had 2 full NHL seasons under his belt at the age of 20. For some reason his game hasn't improved that much since his NHL debut, he basically stayed at the same level all those years.
CBJ took so much heat for rushing prospect in the past and now when they don't rush RyJo suddenly patience becomes a bad thing.
Even today the whining about RyJo's playing time has filled most of the threads on these boards. And nobody could reasonably explain why extended ice-time is a necessity for his proper development. That is kind of annoying.
I understand, if he could be sent to the AHL I'm sure he would be there right now but since he isn't and the season is essentially a no pressure situation I don't see why playing him every few games is a bad thing. He has been scratched almost 50% of the time since the ASG (5 times prior) so I hope to see him at least 7 or 8 games before the season ends. If he needs more time next season he will be in the AHL.

As for the several first round picks that have been rushed here I'm not so sure they would be much better if handled with more patience, I'm thinking of Zherdev, Picard, Brule and Filatov..

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03-08-2012, 01:43 PM
  #137
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All of that makes perfect sense, biz, but...Aaron Johnson? Really? That is beyond annoying!
Aaron Johnson is on the mission to be an example for RyJo of how you shouldn't play NHL hockey?

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03-08-2012, 01:46 PM
  #138
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Aaron Johnson is on the mission to be an example for RyJo of how you shouldn't play NHL hockey?
OK, I can buy that!

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03-08-2012, 01:52 PM
  #139
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I think ice time to help that development is part of the issue, sitting in the press box isn't giving him any experience. The games don't count for anything other than pride so it's not like these games are pressure packed.
However, practicing with a NHL franchise is gaining experience. Every player on the roster is trying to earn a spot in the top 19 on game days. I want to see Johansen on the ice but I also think the it's a slippery slope to play a player "less deserving" (maybe not ready is better here???) than one who's busting his a$$ in practice. It sends the wrong message to those playing hard, or practicing better, or whatever objective point you want to look at.

I don't want to kill myself every day if someone else is going to get my spot simply because he's drafted in the 1st round or "the next stud" or whatever.

Effort, effort, effort. If the kid isn't in good enough shape for the rigors of the NHL or isn't up to speed, don't play him.

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03-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #140
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Poor Aaron Johnson....

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03-08-2012, 01:58 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
However, practicing with a NHL franchise is gaining experience. Every player on the roster is trying to earn a spot in the top 19 on game days. I want to see Johansen on the ice but I also think the it's a slippery slope to play a player "less deserving" (maybe not ready is better here???) than one who's busting his a$$ in practice. It sends the wrong message to those playing hard, or practicing better, or whatever objective point you want to look at.

I don't want to kill myself every day if someone else is going to get my spot simply because he's drafted in the 1st round or "the next stud" or whatever.

Effort, effort, effort. If the kid isn't in good enough shape for the rigors of the NHL or isn't up to speed, don't play him.
Gotta earn it that's for sure, Filatov is a good example.. that said with Mackenzie now out it looks like Johansen is going to play.

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03-08-2012, 02:07 PM
  #142
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It's a common myth that the 1995 Indians were a bunch of young guys who came together; the Indians were actually a platoon-heavy team.

Behind the plate, Tony Pena (pushing 40) platooned with Sandy Alomar, who was 29. At first, Paul Sorrento (29) and Herbert Perry (25) platooned. Baerga (26), Vizquel (28), and Thome (24) filled out the everyday infield; all three were too valuable to take out, and when they came out, utilitymen like Espinoza (33) could fill in. Albert Belle (28) and Kenny Lofton (28) played the outfield with Manny Ramirez (23), with Wayne Kirby (31) filling in. At DH was Eddie Murray (39) and Dave Winfield (43).

The rotation featured El Presidente (40) and Orel Hershiser (36), with Charles Nagy (28), Mark Clark (27), and Chad Ogea (24). And out of the bullpen were Jose Mesa (29), Eric Plunk (31), Julian Tavarez (22), Jim Poole (29), and Paul Assenmacher (34).

In the AL, Cleveland had the 5th-oldest position players and 4th-oldest pitching staff. The 1997 team was 3rd-oldest in each.
Point taken about the age, but when speaking about young teams, I think in terms of experience. Johanssen needs playing time. All for his development.

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03-08-2012, 02:08 PM
  #143
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Poor Aaron Johnson....
Don't you mean poor fans of the CBJ?

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03-08-2012, 02:12 PM
  #144
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Don't you mean poor fans of the CBJ?
lol.

Aaron Johnson is that poor little puppy no one wants. All things considered he's played fairly well based on expectations (which weren't high).

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03-09-2012, 08:02 AM
  #145
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I tried to pay some attention to Ryan last night in his appearances on the ice. If I had to sum up how he looks on the ice in one word it'd be lethargic. He just seems a touch too slow (mentally and/or physically) for what's going on around him. Just my two cents. I think he's definitely too young to be out there yet, he should benefit from another year in the minors.

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03-09-2012, 09:20 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
However, practicing with a NHL franchise is gaining experience. Every player on the roster is trying to earn a spot in the top 19 on game days. I want to see Johansen on the ice but I also think the it's a slippery slope to play a player "less deserving" (maybe not ready is better here???) than one who's busting his a$$ in practice. It sends the wrong message to those playing hard, or practicing better, or whatever objective point you want to look at.

I don't want to kill myself every day if someone else is going to get my spot simply because he's drafted in the 1st round or "the next stud" or whatever.

Effort, effort, effort. If the kid isn't in good enough shape for the rigors of the NHL or isn't up to speed, don't play him.
This. What people seem to miss is that Johansen is at practice every day working with and against NHL players. It's an opportunity to learn and work to minimize bad habits all while practicing at close to NHL game speed. When a player is in over his head, he will usually develop some bad habits in an attempt to just survive. Young guys need to be put in a position of ever increasing challenge without being overwhelmed. As they respond to the challenge, a sound developmental system will keep turning up the heat.

The key at this stage in my opinion is for the Jackets to have demanding practices, interspersed with teaching. Many posters vilified Hitchcock for doing exactly this when Filatov was a Jacket. Filatov thought he knew everything and complained publicly.

Hitch was right. Players need to have an opportunity to learn.

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03-09-2012, 09:23 AM
  #147
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Good posts, Xoggz22 and leek, well stated support for the developmental model you favor.

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03-09-2012, 10:02 AM
  #148
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Good posts, Xoggz22 and leek, well stated support for the developmental model you favor.
Thanks. I will admit, I want to see Johansen playing in games and have been baffled by some of the decisions made not in his favor. I even voiced it in previous threads but when you actually sit and watch the games and realize that every player is working to get ice time you can only hope a coach will provide a reasonably fair approach. This seems to be occuring under Richards who has motivation to get a job in 2012/13 and if it's here he needs to be consistent with the players now and in the future.

Suffice it to say I have changed my tune at times and this is probably one of them. Earn your playing time. It's a great slogan for the room I think.

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03-09-2012, 11:08 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by pl4tinum View Post
I tried to pay some attention to Ryan last night in his appearances on the ice. If I had to sum up how he looks on the ice in one word it'd be lethargic. He just seems a touch too slow (mentally and/or physically) for what's going on around him. Just my two cents.
I watched him close too, well, I tried as he wasn't on the ice much. I agree, lethargic is a good word.. I didn't see him get beat because I didn't see him engage hardly at all. I was hoping for a better game from him.

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03-09-2012, 11:11 AM
  #150
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...but Aaron Johnson? That's my biggest gripe, playing a bad defenseman ahead of Johansen at wing just doesn't go down right, with me. Play Russell, Boyce, Bass, or any number of other wingers in the system...but AJ? Nope, can't buy it. For me, that disqualifies Richards as coach. Others, including the coach, must see something that I'm missing.

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