He just isn't a winner because he's been on terrible teams?
Nonsense. It's a team game.
its a team game. losing ALL the time effects both the individuals and the team as a group. it effects some worse than others. are you someone who believes that the capitals losing history has no effect on their playoff play? that players that have never played in washington before would not be effected in the playoffs when the media starts asking them about all the chokes in long ago and recent caps history?
there is no doubt in my mind the the combination of ov losing badly in the olympics and then the playoffs has effected his career negatively. how do you think it effects a player who's team always falls apart down the stretch and fails?
i suppose that you then agree with the opposite. that the cup winning player brings no added value for the experience.
i firmly believe that winning has lasting effects and so does losing.
lets look at someone that we know very well. mike green. recall that he fell all the way down into the first round in large measure because his junior team was so terrible he never played in any games of value. they were afraid that without having played in that pressure that he might collapse under the playoff atmosphere.
back to jokinen. if he were the last player available, i'd give him a shot. if i had a choice between him and a guy with a cup ring or two, i want the guy with his name on the trophy
its a team game. losing ALL the time effects both the individuals and the team as a group. it effects some worse than others. are you someone who believes that the capitals losing history has no effect on their playoff play? that players that have never played in washington before would not be effected in the playoffs when the media starts asking them about all the chokes in long ago and recent caps history?
there is no doubt in my mind the the combination of ov losing badly in the olympics and then the playoffs has effected his career negatively. how do you think it effects a player who's team always falls apart down the stretch and fails?
i suppose that you then agree with the opposite. that the cup winning player brings no added value for the experience.
i firmly believe that winning has lasting effects and so does losing.
lets look at someone that we know very well. mike green. recall that he fell all the way down into the first round in large measure because his junior team was so terrible he never played in any games of value. they were afraid that without having played in that pressure that he might collapse under the playoff atmosphere.
back to jokinen. if he were the last player available, i'd give him a shot. if i had a choice between him and a guy with a cup ring or two, i want the guy with his name on the trophy
Every thing is one of two extremes with you. Do I think that repetitive losing by the same group of core players affects their confidence? Yes. Do I think losing repeatedly forever taints a player? Of course not. That's nonsense.
He doesn't cause teams to lose. Again, go look at the rosters of the team's he's been on. Not good.
Was Manny Malhotra tainted by being on crap teams? Did he bring down the Canucks? What about Rosty Klesla? Was he the downfall of the Coyotes? Eric Brewer to the Lightning?
Is Dustin Brown just not a winner? Mikko Koivu? Barret Jackman?
And how on Earth are the Blues so good, with all the 'just not a winners' they have on their team?
Every thing is one of two extremes with you. Do I think that repetitive losing by the same group of core players affects their confidence? Yes. Do I think losing repeatedly forever taints a player? Of course not. That's nonsense.
He doesn't cause teams to lose. Again, go look at the rosters of the team's he's been on. Not good.
Was Manny Malhotra tainted by being on crap teams? Did he bring down the Canucks? What about Rosty Klesla? Was he the downfall of the Coyotes? Eric Brewer to the Lightning?
Is Dustin Brown just not a winner? Mikko Koivu? Barret Jackman?
And how on Earth are the Blues so good, with all the 'just not a winners' they have on their team?
how good are the blues compared to how good have the caps have been in recent years?
if you want jokinen, fine. enjoy. there's no point arguing about this
Just got done, had to DVR it, man ,was i pissed we gave it away in the last 4 minutes, but 2 points on the road, in Boston? I'll take it.
Now lets hope those ****s in ****sburgh can take care of business.
Edit: Wrong thread.
Last edited by Vladiator16: 03-30-2012 at 08:28 AM.
FORWARDS
Alexander Ovechkin ($9.538m) / Nicklas Backstrom ($6.700m) / Troy Brouwer ($2.350m)
Brooks Laich ($4.500m) / Marcus Johansson ($0.900m) / Alexander Semin ($6.000m)
Jason Chimera ($1.750m) / Paul Gaustad ($2.600m) / Joel Ward ($3.000m)
Matt Hendricks ($0.825m) / Jay Beagle ($0.650m) / Torrey Mitchell ($1.500m)
Brad Winchester ($0.675m) / Mathieu Perreault ($0.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($6.700m) / Mike Green ($5.250m)
Karl Alzner ($1.285m) / John Carlson ($2.500m)
Jeff Schultz ($2.750m) / Dmitri Orlov ($0.900m)
Clayton Stoner ($0.675m) /
GOALTENDERS
Tomas Vokoun ($3.200m)
Michal Neuvirth ($1.150m)
BUYOUTS
Tyler Sloan ($0.233m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $68,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,481,795; BONUSES: $210,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,518,205
W/ Kuznetsov
FORWARDS
Alexander Ovechkin ($9.538m) / Nicklas Backstrom ($6.700m) / Troy Brouwer ($2.350m)
Alexander Semin ($6.000m) / Marcus Johansson ($0.900m) / Evgeny Kuznetsov ($3.750m)
Jason Chimera ($1.750m) / Brooks Laich ($4.500m) / Joel Ward ($3.000m)
Matt Hendricks ($0.825m) / Jay Beagle ($0.650m) / Torrey Mitchell ($1.500m)
Brad Winchester ($0.675m) / Mathieu Perreault ($0.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($6.700m) / Mike Green ($5.250m)
Karl Alzner ($1.285m) / John Carlson ($2.500m)
Jeff Schultz ($2.750m) / Dmitri Orlov ($0.900m)
Clayton Stoner ($0.675m) /
GOALTENDERS
Tomas Vokoun ($3.200m)
Michal Neuvirth ($1.150m)
BUYOUTS
Tyler Sloan ($0.233m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $68,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,631,795; BONUSES: $210,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $368,205
FORWARDS
Alexander Ovechkin ($9.538m) / Nicklas Backstrom ($6.700m) / Troy Brouwer ($2.350m)
Brooks Laich ($4.500m) / Marcus Johansson ($0.900m) / Alexander Semin ($6.000m)
Jason Chimera ($1.750m) / Paul Gaustad ($2.600m) / Joel Ward ($3.000m)
Matt Hendricks ($0.825m) / Jay Beagle ($0.650m) / Torrey Mitchell ($1.500m)
Brad Winchester ($0.675m) / Mathieu Perreault ($0.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($6.700m) / Mike Green ($5.250m)
Karl Alzner ($1.285m) / John Carlson ($2.500m)
Jeff Schultz ($2.750m) / Dmitri Orlov ($0.900m)
Clayton Stoner ($0.675m) /
GOALTENDERS
Tomas Vokoun ($3.200m)
Michal Neuvirth ($1.150m)
BUYOUTS
Tyler Sloan ($0.233m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $68,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,481,795; BONUSES: $210,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,518,205
W/ Kuznetsov
FORWARDS
Alexander Ovechkin ($9.538m) / Nicklas Backstrom ($6.700m) / Troy Brouwer ($2.350m)
Alexander Semin ($6.000m) / Marcus Johansson ($0.900m) / Evgeny Kuznetsov ($3.750m)
Jason Chimera ($1.750m) / Brooks Laich ($4.500m) / Joel Ward ($3.000m)
Matt Hendricks ($0.825m) / Jay Beagle ($0.650m) / Torrey Mitchell ($1.500m)
Brad Winchester ($0.675m) / Mathieu Perreault ($0.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($6.700m) / Mike Green ($5.250m)
Karl Alzner ($1.285m) / John Carlson ($2.500m)
Jeff Schultz ($2.750m) / Dmitri Orlov ($0.900m)
Clayton Stoner ($0.675m) /
GOALTENDERS
Tomas Vokoun ($3.200m)
Michal Neuvirth ($1.150m)
BUYOUTS
Tyler Sloan ($0.233m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $68,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,631,795; BONUSES: $210,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $368,205
3.7million for Vokoun is very generous... Add 2 mil to that and that's probably his salary.
Every thing is one of two extremes with you. Do I think that repetitive losing by the same group of core players affects their confidence? Yes. Do I think losing repeatedly forever taints a player? Of course not. That's nonsense.
He doesn't cause teams to lose. Again, go look at the rosters of the team's he's been on. Not good.
Was Manny Malhotra tainted by being on crap teams? Did he bring down the Canucks? What about Rosty Klesla? Was he the downfall of the Coyotes? Eric Brewer to the Lightning?
Is Dustin Brown just not a winner? Mikko Koivu? Barret Jackman?
And how on Earth are the Blues so good, with all the 'just not a winners' they have on their team?
16 years..6 playoff games. I would bet a good deal of cash that Jokkinen has one of the worst reg season games played vs playoff games played ratio. He's been both the goto guy and secondary guy on every team he's played with.
Sure correlation does not equal causation but at some point you have to think where there is smoke there is fire.
Keenan turned him around but that was ages ago. He's on the downswing of his carreer too and adds no playoff experience to our team which REALLY needs some.
We need players from winning backgrounds with winning mindsets...guys like Jokkinen are NOT that.
Also I disagree about someone who mentioned he was a solid defensive player. I call shenanigans. He's simply average at the very best.
I agree with TX. Winning does affect a players psyche. If our team had a winning tradition then perhaps Jokinen could come and and be properly assimilated. But thats not the case. As of now he would bring more of a losing mentality than we already have.
We have a reputation as losers or chokers. It wouldn't be wise to bring in a player with a reputation such as that if you want to improve.
You don't think it's realistic that a team severely lacking in high end depth and suffering from a major public image issue would look to make a splash in free agency?
Sure, if you lived in Philadelphia or New York. That type of move has Flyers or Rags written all over it.
16 years..6 playoff games. I would bet a good deal of cash that Jokkinen has one of the worst reg season games played vs playoff games played ratio. He's been both the goto guy and secondary guy on every team he's played with.
Sure correlation does not equal causation but at some point you have to think where there is smoke there is fire.
Keenan turned him around but that was ages ago. He's on the downswing of his carreer too and adds no playoff experience to our team which REALLY needs some.
We need players from winning backgrounds with winning mindsets...guys like Jokkinen are NOT that.
Also I disagree about someone who mentioned he was a solid defensive player. I call shenanigans. He's simply average at the very best.
I agree with TX. Winning does affect a players psyche. If our team had a winning tradition then perhaps Jokinen could come and and be properly assimilated. But thats not the case. As of now he would bring more of a losing mentality than we already have.
We have a reputation as losers or chokers. It wouldn't be wise to bring in a player with a reputation such as that if you want to improve.
arguing the merits of Olli Jokinen? Its the dog days of summer already!
If they had to chose between the 2, and IMO there is no choice as Hamrlik is the much better and more valuable player, the fact that Hamrlik is only signed for 1 more year while Ward is signed for 3 more makes that a very easy decision.
i'll roll this into the conversation one more time. the last two seasons in nashville ward's regular season production was 10 goals and 13 goals at 17+ minutes per game. essentially the same level of production as he has brought to the caps.
in the playoffs his minutes increased to 20 minutes per game and his production jumped to a combined 17pts in 18 games.
i'd say that it makes a lot of sense to see what he does in the playoffs before going all in on dumping him for a bag of pucks
i'll roll this into the conversation one more time. the last two seasons in nashville ward's regular season production was 10 goals and 13 goals at 17+ minutes per game. essentially the same level of production as he has brought to the caps.
in the playoffs his minutes increased to 20 minutes per game and his production jumped to a combined 17pts in 18 games.
i'd say that it makes a lot of sense to see what he does in the playoffs before going all in on dumping him for a bag of pucks
As it stands right now, the chance of him getting a jersey in the playoffs isn't particuarly high.
Jumbo Joe would be an awesome 2C. His reputation as a playoff choker has been undeserved the past couple of years IMO. If he's available, the Caps have to make an offer.
