Well considering our biggest rival has a pair of MVPs for center 1/2 with Crosby and Malkin. I just hope we looking how to beat them and not just get by with a aging vet like oli. I would want a 75 point type center to go with backstrom if you are looking to get out of the east.
Just start listing the top 3 centers for the last 5 teams to make it out of the east.
would you be for trading ovechkin, a winger, for a center? lets face it. pittsburgh has little of its salary cap allocated to wingers. teh caps have $10m in a winger. if you want another allstar center with backstrom to match crosby and malkin, then ov needs to be traded in for a center.
would you be for trading ovechkin, a winger, for a center? lets face it. pittsburgh has little of its salary cap allocated to wingers. teh caps have $10m in a winger. if you want another allstar center with backstrom to match crosby and malkin, then ov needs to be traded in for a center.
You realize we can add like $20 million next year, right?
yea. so does carlson. and? he's 21 years old. last night he was center for ovechkin in a pressure packed game on the road v a team with centers you would tend to call much better than him. 1g 1a 2pts. caps scored 2 goals.
If Johansson follows the development pattern of, say, Filppula -a fair comparison, he'll be a plus #2 center when Ovechkin is 33. **** that. Why do you want to wait when the window is pretty much closed already?
would you be for trading ovechkin, a winger, for a center? lets face it. pittsburgh has little of its salary cap allocated to wingers. teh caps have $10m in a winger. if you want another allstar center with backstrom to match crosby and malkin, then ov needs to be traded in for a center.
UFA Semin makes 7 mill. which is what alot of the top tier centers make. You can easily add a top center to the roster to go with backstrom and ovechkin
Again, why does no one want to address all the other players I named? They've all been on **** teams for the vast majority of their career, and it's had no effect on their quality as players or impact on playoff teams. Klesla had 4 playoff games in his 9 year career before moving to Phoenix. Brown went 4 and a half seasons before making the playoffs (and still hasn't been past the first round). Jackman's made the playoffs twice in his 8 year career. What about Luongo? He went 5 seasons without making the playoffs to start his career, and got to Stanley Cup final. Is Rick Nash 'just not a winner'? How much longer does John Tavares have to miss the playoffs to be considered 'just not a winner'? What about Sam Gagner? Kyle Brodziak?
I'm frankly mystified as to why anyone would think it would have any impact, whatsoever. If anything, I'd take the opposite view: it likely makes a player hungrier for success.
I'd like for you, txpd, or anyone who thinks Jokinen 'just isn't a winner' to point out exactly what part of his game or mentality screams 'loser'.
And for all the talk of Jokinen being on the downside of his career, he hasn't fallen below 50 points in a season since 2001-02, and will hit 60 points this season.
There is a BIG difference between 4 to 8 years to basically your ENTIRE career. Guys like Brown and Jackman etc. are just entering their prime and will have chances.
Jokinen has had 16 frikin years to do something. Zilch.
Again..lets say you are 100% right and that he is not a "loser"...I'd strongly suggest that he is..well..at least he hasn't proven to be a "winner" thats for sure. The reality is that he has next to no playoff experience. We need MORE playoff experience on the roster not LESS.
UFA Semin makes 7 mill. which is what alot of the top tier centers make. You can easily add a top center to the roster to go with backstrom and ovechkin
If Johansson follows the development pattern of, say, Filppula -a fair comparison, he'll be a plus #2 center when Ovechkin is 33. **** that. Why do you want to wait when the window is pretty much closed already?
Coming in peace here. Saw this post as a Wings fan and thought I'd chime in. Filppula was held back for years because of a massive depth chart(including two cup final teams). Fil was the 6th forward/#3 C on Detroit these seasons behind Datsyuk and Zetterberg. This was back in his 2nd and 3rd year in the league, and he was 24 and 25 years old..
Mojo is 21 and playing in a role Filppula didn't get until his 4th season. So it's not a fair/great comparison. Johansson is leaps and bounds ahead on his development curve at the same age. Filppula's career best(albeit a couple shortened seasons) before this season was 40 points. MoJo has 44 this season..
There is a BIG difference between 4 to 8 years to basically your ENTIRE career. Guys like Brown and Jackman etc. are just entering their prime and will have chances.
Jokinen has had 16 frikin years to do something. Zilch.
Again..lets say you are 100% right and that he is not a "loser"...I'd strongly suggest that he is..well..at least he hasn't proven to be a "winner" thats for sure. The reality is that he has next to no playoff experience. We need MORE playoff experience on the roster not LESS.
You're assuming that he alone can do something about his playoff chances, regardless of the roster around him. He spent most of his career in quite possibly the worst run organization in the league. He should be penalized for that?
When the guy put up back-to-back seasons of 89 and 91 points, do you know who the second leading scorer was each season? The first year, it was a 38 year old Joe Nieuwendyk, with 56 points. The second year it was Nathan Horton, with 62 points. So he out-scored the second guy on his team by 33 and 29 points.
You say there's a difference between 4 to 8 years and basically your entire career. Well, what about Stephen Weiss? Is he a 'loser'? He has literally gone his entire 9 year career up to this point without making the playoffs.
And the fact that we need more playoff experience is unrelated. We need better players first and foremost.
If Johansson follows the development pattern of, say, Filppula -a fair comparison, he'll be a plus #2 center when Ovechkin is 33. **** that. Why do you want to wait when the window is pretty much closed already?
Johannson's already WAY ahead of Filppula's development curve. Filpulla didn't hit 40 points in an NHL season until 7 years after his draft year. Johansson did it in 3.
Johannson's already WAY ahead of Filppula's development curve. Filpulla didn't hit 40 points in an NHL season until 7 years after his draft year. Johansson did it in 3.
So Johansson is 4 years ahead of Filpulla then. So he'll be a plus 2c in three years. And that's only if you believe that he has that kind of offensive upside -which I certainly don't.
I always thought Johansson's upside was that of Legwand -a defensive monster who still puts up 45 points, 55 in a good year. They both came into the league young and they have crazy speed. Unfortunately, Johansson's defense, boardwork and faceoffs this past season make that comparison optimistic as well.
Regardless, I don't want a lesser David Legwand anchoring the 2nd line of a Caps team with Cup aspirations.
actually i am reading that the cap is going down after the cba gets done. i am curious also where you are getting the $20m from.
Well, we have recorded obligations of $45 million next season and the cap is expected to rise to $64 million. Green and Carlson will eat some of that cap space, but the remaining RFA raises will be marginal.
There's also another $9+ million in completely worthless **** that a competent GM would look to purge immediately.
So Johansson is 4 years ahead of Filpulla then. So he'll be a plus 2c in three years. And that's only if you believe that he has that kind of offensive upside -which I certainly don't.
I always thought Johansson's upside was that of Legwand -a defensive monster who still puts up 45 points, 55 in a good year. They both came into the league young and they have crazy speed. Unfortunately, Johansson's defense, boardwork and faceoffs this past season make that comparison optimistic as well.
Regardless, I don't want a freaking David Legwand clone anchoring the 2nd line of a Caps team with Cup aspirations.
That's quite a bit of oversimplifying, don't you think? If Johansson's already 4 years ahead of Filppula, it stands to reason that he'll develop from this point faster than Filppula did.
The Legwand comparison seems off, considering that Legwand's broken 50 points once in his career, and Johansson's approaching that mark in his second season, while being significantly less developed physically than Legwand was at this point in his career.
Do I think Johansson's a top-quality 2C right now? No. Do I think he'll be able to physically develop enough to hold down that spot next season? Probably not. But I'd wager that, if healthy, he'll be around a 60 point player beyond that.
I'm not advocating avoiding acquiring a 2C because I think Mojo's the guy going forward. But I think his ability at the wing and his future upside at center makes the acquisition of a stop-gap (Thornton, Marleau, Jokinen, etc.) much more palatable.
That's quite a bit of oversimplifying, don't you think? If Johansson's already 4 years ahead of Filppula, it stands to reason that he'll develop from this point faster than Filppula did.
I could go either way on this actually. Given the way we develop players at the pro level, I am not optimistic that he will continue to grow. In fact, I really don't think he's grown this year. His offensive numbers are up, yes, but his defensive play has fallen off a cliff. And it was actually his defense that had me most excited about him.
Quote:
The Legwand comparison seems off, considering that Legwand's broken 50 points once in his career, and Johansson's approaching that mark in his second season, while being significantly less developed physically than Legwand was at this point in his career.
Do I think Johansson's a top-quality 2C right now? No. Do I think he'll be able to physically develop enough to hold down that spot next season? Probably not. But I'd wager that, if healthy, he'll be around a 60 point player beyond that.
I think Legwand is a really underrated player -the comparison is a compliment, not an insult. And his numbers have certainly suffered playing for Nashville. Regarding physical maturity -do some freaking squats. Legwand came into the league at the same age and build.
Quote:
I'm not advocating avoiding acquiring a 2C because I think Mojo's the guy going forward. But I think his ability at the wing and his future upside at center makes the acquisition of a stop-gap (Thornton, Marleau, Jokinen, etc.) much more palatable.
We agree here. I'd like to keep Johansson and I'd like a stop gap solution. He should get three years to grow his game and learn from someone competent in a pressure free situation. If he exceeds expectations, great, but give him room. The decision to anoint him our 2c to start the season is a potentially career destroying move. Who needs that kind of pressure at 20?
On top of that...you have us going with the same Centers?
I buy Johansson, and was going to have a post dissecting his current abilities and development but that's already happening in this thread. Regardless, my first (No Kuznetsov) roster had Paul Gaustad, with both Laich and Mitchell (and Hendricks in a pinch) able to slide from wing to center. My second is essentially our centers this year, with Beagle replacing Halpern and Mitchell added for depth.
On Mojo, I was curious how his stats compared when played at the wing versus center, so I tracked his production in three situations: top-3 in faceoff attempts, #4 in faceoff attempts, and outside the top 4 in faceoff attempts. I figured if he was in the top-3, he was most certainly playing center, and if he was outside the top 4, he was likely a winger. Right at #4, he could have been either or both, depending on the game flow.
For the record, I want him to become a C because his defensive instincts are ridiculous. That being said, I think he could benefit from playing top six wing alongside an established center for a year or two. Alternatively, I think he would do very well as a 3c. I am in no way comfortable with him as a 2c in the near term. He's bringing neither offense nor defense in that capacity. And I don't begrudge him that as he is just a kid.
I definitely agree with txpd that "winningness" exists as a character trait. I don't agree with his interpretation of where it comes from. Ovechkin is affected by losing in the Olympics, etc., but that kind of thing isn't what makes Jokinen a loser (if you buy that he is one). Winning and losing are just in some people. It seems too simple to be true, but I think it clearly is. Neuvirth is a winner, and that's the one thing that makes me think he may be worth keeping around, for example.
I definitely agree with txpd that "winningness" exists as a character trait. I don't agree with his interpretation of where it comes from. Ovechkin is affected by losing in the Olympics, etc., but that kind of thing isn't what makes Jokinen a loser (if you buy that he is one). Winning and losing are just in some people. It seems too simple to be true, but I think it clearly is. Neuvirth is a winner, and that's the one thing that makes me think he may be worth keeping around, for example.
Explain the difference between Ovechkin and Jokinen. Also, who do you think is more of a winner, Neuvirth or Rinne?
Also, was there some sort of chemical reaction that occurred once Manning, ARod, and Nowitzki won their titles that converted them from losers to winners? Or are they still losers? Or have they always been winners?
Explain the difference between Ovechkin and Jokinen. Also, who do you think is more of a winner, Neuvirth or Rinne?
Also, was there some sort of chemical reaction that occurred once Manning, ARod, and Nowitzki won their titles that converted them from losers to winners? Or are they still losers? Or have they always been winners?
On that note. Look at how many guys just show up and have there best years playing for the NYY. There are some that can not handle it. But I would say most guys have there best years after joining the Yankees. Its hard not to say winning breads winners.
