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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part X

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Old
02-28-2012, 08:07 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
On Wideman - is there any chance we can afford to resign him after the season with out dumping hamrliks or wards salary?

and other then jeff carter trade no 1st rounders were traded. If highest offer was a 2nd rounder for wideman i can understand GMGM valuing him more for the playoff run then another 2nd.

Not dumping hamrliks 3.5 mill contract is a head scratcher. leads me to believe he has negitive value and no one wanted the bum.
DET gave up a 1st for Quincey, and NSH gave up a 1st for Gaustad (+ a 4th). Quincey is an RFA though.

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02-28-2012, 08:08 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
On Wideman - is there any chance we can afford to resign him after the season with out dumping hamrliks or wards salary?

and other then jeff carter trade no 1st rounders were traded. If highest offer was a 2nd rounder for wideman i can understand GMGM valuing him more for the playoff run then another 2nd.

Not dumping hamrliks 3.5 mill contract is a head scratcher. leads me to believe he has negitive value and no one wanted the bum.
I don't know...Gaustad got a 1st rounder...I like the player but he is a 4th line center.

Oduya, who seems to have run out of gas, got a 2nd AND 3rd.

I'm quite sure Wideman would have gotten a 1st at the very least. But again..George wasn't looking for prospects/picks. He wanted a roster player and no team would plug one hole to open another.

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02-28-2012, 08:11 AM
  #78
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You don't get to where Ted is in life by being dumb.

I had some email discussions with him prior to the draft and it was clear he had no intentions of mortgaging the future to win now. I'm sure he and George had discussions.

I'm sure he knew that if he told George that his job was on the line then George would indeed trade away futures.

To me its actually very logical that what I laid out is EXACTLY what happened.

If we make the playoffs and win a round or two (very possible) then George keeps his job.

Miss the playoffs then George will be fired.

Make the playoffs and get ousted? Who knows....I guess it depends on the fashion in which we lose.
I don't see George losing his job even if we don't make the playoffs. Ted will give George another full season to see what he can do, IMO. Just a hunch more than anything else.

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02-28-2012, 08:15 AM
  #79
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I don't see George losing his job even if we don't make the playoffs. Ted will give George another full season to see what he can do, IMO. Just a hunch more than anything else.
I don't know about a full season, but I definitely think the inaction at the deadline was a sign that he's going to get a chance to do something (possibly quite a bit) this offseason. That there's not pressure on him to try and apply a quick-fix to turn things around.

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02-28-2012, 08:17 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
I don't see George losing his job even if we don't make the playoffs. Ted will give George another full season to see what he can do, IMO. Just a hunch more than anything else.
If we don't make the playoffs it will be an epic level fail. We were predicted to win the cup this year. Now i can understand we'd fall short of that ..but to not even make the playoffs?

The GM firing his 4th coach during his tenure?

The team's level of play not changing much after the firing?

Former coach goes onto new team and seemingly turns them around?

I think this is the end of the line for George if we miss the playoffs as someone needs to take the fall to appease the bloodlust and it will definitely be the architect.

But we will see...there is a very good chance we make the playoffs and if we do I seriously doubt any top seed will want to face us..especially the Rangers.

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02-28-2012, 08:17 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
On Wideman - is there any chance we can afford to resign him after the season with out dumping hamrliks or wards salary?

and other then jeff carter trade no 1st rounders were traded. If highest offer was a 2nd rounder for wideman i can understand GMGM valuing him more for the playoff run then another 2nd.

Not dumping hamrliks 3.5 mill contract is a head scratcher. leads me to believe he has negitive value and no one wanted the bum.
Ahem, Gaustad got a 1st.

Regarding Wideman, with Green back he's relegated to a #5. Assuming Green stays and holds himself together, Wideman's role next season will be significantly diminished. You can be damn sure that Wideman won't sign for less than he's getting right now, and 4+mil for a #5 is way too much.

Having said that, if Green says healthy, Wideman won't be a big loss, which is why I wanted him traded now. Green will be our #1, top puck mover, and the primary PP quarterback. Carlson and especially Orlov can also help out on the PP and move the puck. Between those three we should have enough offense from the blue line, and as we all know Wideman is not here for his defensive prowess.

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02-28-2012, 08:17 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by brs03 View Post
DET gave up a 1st for Quincey, and NSH gave up a 1st for Gaustad (+ a 4th). Quincey is an RFA though.
I forgot about those trades, were either Det or Nash rumored to have interest in Wideman.

Having 8 good Dman does bold will for a good playoff run. But with our lack of centers the point maybe mute.

To get the most value out of his last 30 some games does anyone else think he should be on 2nd pairing with alzner and demote carlson to 3rd pairing

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02-28-2012, 08:22 AM
  #83
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Well, only four months until FA starts. Can't wait to re-up Wideman for Laich money and consider the defense done.

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02-28-2012, 08:34 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
I don't know...Gaustad got a 1st rounder...I like the player but he is a 4th line center.

Oduya, who seems to have run out of gas, got a 2nd AND 3rd.

I'm quite sure Wideman would have gotten a 1st at the very least. But again..George wasn't looking for prospects/picks. He wanted a roster player and no team would plug one hole to open another.
I keep seeing people say that and using Oduya as a reason why. IMO the difference between a 2nd + a 3rd and a 1st is large...We see 2nds/3rds moved all the time. You dont see a ton of 1st rounders moved.....

Nashville is in total win now mode. Not only do they want to show the fans that, but some of the key players. They wanted strength at C and paid heavily for it. Like I said before...if a team looking to make a serious run lost a offensive D who could play the PP I could see a nice return for Wideman, who is that team? Its not like a Boyle-type got moved for a 1st+ and GMGM missed out on swooping in on that.

Would be interesting to re-read what peoples thoughts on getting Wideman last season were. Im guessing if GMGM had traded a 1st+ for him last year there would have been pitchforks and torches in the air

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02-28-2012, 08:36 AM
  #85
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just thinking about offseason possible moves.

How often do sign and trades happen with UFA in the NHL? I think the flyers have done it a few times if i remember correct and would this be a option with Wideman.

Also if Hamrlik is still on the roster next year we could give him the Nylander/Souray treatment and send his cap hit to hershey.

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02-28-2012, 08:41 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
I keep seeing people say that and using Oduya as a reason why. IMO the difference between a 2nd + a 3rd and a 1st is large...We see 2nds/3rds moved all the time. You dont see a ton of 1st rounders moved.....

Nashville is in total win now mode. Not only do they want to show the fans that, but some of the key players. They wanted strength at C and paid heavily for it. Like I said before...if a team looking to make a serious run lost a offensive D who could play the PP I could see a nice return for Wideman, who is that team? Its not like a Boyle-type got moved for a 1st+ and GMGM missed out on swooping in on that.

Would be interesting to re-read what peoples thoughts on getting Wideman last season were. Im guessing if GMGM had traded a 1st+ for him last year there would have been pitchforks and torches in the air
Last year was different. He had another year left on his contract. Thats huge. UFAs at the trade deadline have more value these days as contenders are usually up against the cap and don't want to mess with their offseason plans.

Gaustad got a 1st
Quincey got a 1st

Ok lets set aside Wideman for a moment..

Teams were clearly interested in Hamrlik...George DID NOT want a pick for the player. He wanted a roster player coming back! He did not consider him a "cap dump" which he clearly should have been. There is no excuse he shouldn't have taken a draft pick for Hamrlik...unless he was looking to save his job and figured Hamrlik would be better than a pick in order to do that.

To me its more of a factor of George not wanting "futures" for the guys he could have traded.

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02-28-2012, 08:45 AM
  #87
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If I didn't think they were possible, I wouldn't have written them.
Wideman for a 1st seems quite possible given what Zidlicky got.
Hamrlik for a 2nd is easily possible given that Hammer has played decently well -- and based on trade day talk, it sounds like McPhee might have had better offers.
Knuble for a 3rd also seems possible because this has been a sudden off year after years of steady production and his experience/leadership is still there.
Vokoun for a 2nd & 3rd.. he still has the reputation that he can be elite, for a team like the Flyers that has everything else could easily be worth it.
I think your hoped for returns are fine but there is no way I could see Leonsis sanctioning McPhee throwing in the towel like that at this stage.

I mean teams legitimately out of it didn't cash in their chips to that extent but a team 1 point out was supposed to?

I understand the sentiment that this team is going nowhere but that kind of sell off was never going to happen whether McPhee wanted to or not.

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02-28-2012, 08:49 AM
  #88
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Jeez - sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There was only 1 deal that went down since February that had assets that might be useful to us - the Hodgson for Gragnani and Kassian deal. Nothing else that changed hands would have materially improved our chances.

And based upon what was swapped, I can't see getting more than a 3rd for Knuble, and a 2nd for Hamrlik -- at best. It's beyond me how that's the least bit helpful, particularly since those guys are exactly the kind of guys you want around for the playoffs (which is why playoff teams had some interest).

Analogizing Zidlicky and Wideman, it seems apparent that we might have been able, at best, to get a late 1st for Wideman, along with crap. What's the point of that - particularly when we already have two 1sts and draft is not deep.

I think mgmt believes this team can makes the playoffs, and in fact needs to do so in order to continue whatever momentum has been established as a consistent playoff qualifier. I also think there's a view that this group, coupled with Dale at the helm, has a better understanding of what it takes to have a decent playoff run, even if we're less talented without Nicky. And I think they believe that Green's fraility highlights the need for some redundancy there (hence, retain Wideman).

Weighing the benefit of additional draft backs against the setback signalled by not making the playoffs, they chose to maximize the likelihood of avoiding the latter. Seems rational to me.


Last edited by marcel snapshot: 02-28-2012 at 08:50 AM. Reason: typo
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Old
02-28-2012, 08:55 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
Analogizing Zidlicky and Wideman, it seems apparent that we might have been able, at best, to get a late 1st for Wideman, along with crap. What's the point of that - particularly when we already have two 1sts and draft is not deep.

Weighing the benefit of additional draft backs against the setback signalled by not making the playoffs, they chose to maximize the likelihood of avoiding the latter. Seems rational to me.
2 points:

1- The draft is deep from everything I have heard! Also don't forget ..we got Green and Carlson very late in the 1st rounds of their respective drafts. Our scouting has been good so a late 1st is nothing to scoff at. We got Orlov and Neuvirth in the 2nd round of their drafts. 1st and 2nd rounders are good..very good.

2- Hamrlik and Knuble aren't even playing. Wideman's ice time has been reduced significantly since Green's return. Hamrlik and Knuble have been very public about their displeasure and that is probably not a good deal for locker room continuity.

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02-28-2012, 09:05 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
You don't get to where Ted is in life by being dumb.

I had some email discussions with him prior to the draft and it was clear he had no intentions of mortgaging the future to win now. I'm sure he and George had discussions.

I'm sure he knew that if he told George that his job was on the line then George would indeed trade away futures.

To me its actually very logical that what I laid out is EXACTLY what happened.

If we make the playoffs and win a round or two (very possible) then George keeps his job.

Miss the playoffs then George will be fired.

Make the playoffs and get ousted? Who knows....I guess it depends on the fashion in which we lose.
It's how I see it too. But could also be the opposite due to price ncreases.

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02-28-2012, 09:21 AM
  #91
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I shouldn't be reading this forum until playofss. Can't resist though

Now we have

Schultz/Orlov-Green
Alzner-Carlson (and Carlson seems to be better last weeks)
Hamrlik-Wideman
Erskine

I believe these guys are the best group of Dmen we fielded in any of last years.

We need Vokoun to keep his better game from January, little luck and NB. And we will fight hard, I believe.

OV-NB-MK
MH-BL-TB
MJ-MP-AS
JC-JH-JW
Beagle

What else can we do? Only praying for Backstrom.

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02-28-2012, 09:38 AM
  #92
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Last year was different. He had another year left on his contract. Thats huge. UFAs at the trade deadline have more value these days as contenders are usually up against the cap and don't want to mess with their offseason plans.
thats situational...GMGM at the time said it was important that Wideman was signed for another year and not a rental....

even with that...he returned a 3rd, not a 1st +. Talk about huge

Quote:
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Gaustad got a 1st
Quincey got a 1st
We have discussed Gaustad...not sure how this factors in with Wideman.

as for Quincey....maybe I dont know his game that well but ive always thought of him as a good well rounded player. Not all offense and scary in his end. Add to that I dont think he is a UFA (which we disagree I guess on how that changes value). I dont think they brought him in to be the guy on the PP and to create scoring, they are solid there

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Teams were clearly interested in Hamrlik...George DID NOT want a pick for the player. He wanted a roster player coming back! He did not consider him a "cap dump" which he clearly should have been. There is no excuse he shouldn't have taken a draft pick for Hamrlik...unless he was looking to save his job and figured Hamrlik would be better than a pick in order to do that.

To me its more of a factor of George not wanting "futures" for the guys he could have traded.
There are plenty of reasons to not just give him away. Ive never been a fan of the player but your way of thinking on this is backwards. Most here want him moved, for anything. If thats where you start then sure, nothing makes sense.

If I were to guess this team wants to make the playoffs. We as fans can want them to sell off players and re-tool for next season. This however is a business. Even if they play just 2 playoff home games, its money. Players are already paid at that point. Until a week or 2 ago 52 was a question mark (still is IMO) and 55 was not getting a sweater. Just giving a guy away doesnt make sense in every situation.

Again...I dont like the player either. Im not however just assuming that he will be on the team next season (he very well be though) but if people think the short and long term future of this franchise was hurt yesterday because didnt dump them I just think they are looking for reasons to bash GMGM. In short....I dont think its a big deal. This team still has some good young players/prospects, 2 picks in the first round this year. This not dumping him is just being way overblown IMO

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02-28-2012, 09:45 AM
  #93
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Same ole healthy scratches

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02-28-2012, 09:50 AM
  #94
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Only if injuries hit, we will be thrilled George kept everyone. And they will hit on any respectable run.

On D we are healthy now. Sit a kid, or sit a vet. You choose.

At wing, I can see people being pissed at Knuble sitting, but I think Ward and Brow were brought in here to replace him. I don't like Aucoin being our 1RW, but we all know damn well that Knuble got his fair chance at 1RW already. I think Dale wants more speed, lets see where this goes. Knuble when called upon will be fresh and angry, not always a bad thing.

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02-28-2012, 09:53 AM
  #95
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I think your hoped for returns are fine but there is no way I could see Leonsis sanctioning McPhee throwing in the towel like that at this stage.

I mean teams legitimately out of it didn't cash in their chips to that extent but a team 1 point out was supposed to?

I understand the sentiment that this team is going nowhere but that kind of sell off was never going to happen whether McPhee wanted to or not.
Bingo. It would have been a PR nightmare to sell off -even though it was the right thing to do. Over the backdrop of rising ticket prices, ownership would have looked terrible.

It was a business decision, not a hockey decision. Thankfully, beyond what we likely would have gotten for Wideman, I don't think it will hurt us that bad. Frankly, it might force Ted/George to make a splashy free agent signing. If they choose wisely, that could work out nicely.

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02-28-2012, 10:37 AM
  #96
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If we don't make the playoffs it will be an epic level fail. We were predicted to win the cup this year. Now i can understand we'd fall short of that ..but to not even make the playoffs?

The GM firing his 4th coach during his tenure?

The team's level of play not changing much after the firing?

Former coach goes onto new team and seemingly turns them around?

I think this is the end of the line for George if we miss the playoffs as someone needs to take the fall to appease the bloodlust and it will definitely be the architect.

But we will see...there is a very good chance we make the playoffs and if we do I seriously doubt any top seed will want to face us..especially the Rangers.
I'm on your side, you don't have to rationalize it to me. I just don't think Ted sees it the same way. He's pretty loyal to his GMs and I think he is going to give them a chance well past the due date. If the guy hasn't fired Ernie for turning the Wizards into a joke of a franchise I guess I find it hard to see him firing GMGM.

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02-28-2012, 10:44 AM
  #97
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I'm on your side, you don't have to rationalize it to me. I just don't think Ted sees it the same way. He's pretty loyal to his GMs and I think he is going to give them a chance well past the due date. If the guy hasn't fired Ernie for turning the Wizards into a joke of a franchise I guess I find it hard to see him firing GMGM.
Well there is a difference with Ernie here b/c Ted took full ownership more recently where he has been GMGMs boss for almost 15 years.

I guess we'll see what his fate is. I just can't imagine he'll be around should we miss the playoffs.

But then again i can't imagine us missing the playoffs...not at this point. Maybe if we slump some more, other teams pick it up and it gets closer to the end of the season will it then finally sink in.

You'd figure there is a serious winning streak that can break out at any point with this team.

Green is back and looks GOOD. This is huge along with Schultz playing much much better. Hopefully Ovechkin ramps up his game a bit more.

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02-28-2012, 10:57 AM
  #98
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Teams were clearly interested in Hamrlik...George DID NOT want a pick for the player. He wanted a roster player coming back! He did not consider him a "cap dump" which he clearly should have been. There is no excuse he shouldn't have taken a draft pick for Hamrlik...unless he was looking to save his job and figured Hamrlik would be better than a pick in order to do that.

To me its more of a factor of George not wanting "futures" for the guys he could have traded.
inexcusable, my brother, inexcusable that makfi didnt send hamrtime down the river yesterday, for anything. theyve got 8 d-men now, with that kundratek whoever in hershey for depth. sending hamrlik for a pick wouldnt have changed anything.

now, for the rest of this season, that poison pill who is totally at odds with hunter will be all over kettler and the lockerroom spreading lord knows what.

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02-28-2012, 11:07 AM
  #99
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Lets see if injuries hit before we proclaim Hammer expendable for futures. If he doesnt tank the locker room, I am learning to like the hold. He was our best LD in 2012 IMO just a week ago. I read on the internet that Green hasn't played 10 consecutive games in a year. Not that I mind Erskine pushed into the lineup, but lets see if ole George was right.

We don't have a choice.

Last year Green Wideman Poti and Carlson were injured. We were dead in the water. Green just got back. Maybe George is learning to not bank on Green to stay healthy. Would you blame him?

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02-28-2012, 11:11 AM
  #100
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inexcusable, my brother, inexcusable that makfi didnt send hamrtime down the river yesterday, for anything. theyve got 8 d-men now, with that kundratek whoever in hershey for depth. sending hamrlik for a pick wouldnt have changed anything.

now, for the rest of this season, that poison pill who is totally at odds with hunter will be all over kettler and the lockerroom spreading lord knows what.
I agree. The main reason for getting rid of Hamrlik is the public spat with the coach. That never goes well in the locker room.

If we wanted depth we could have traded Hamrlik then acquired a guy like Zanon if we need that 8th dman.

I don't think Hamrlik has played bad and I do think he will be useful if we have an injury..but only if things can be patched up with the coach. I'm not sure that can be done easily but we'll see.

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