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Old
03-01-2012, 11:02 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
It's assumed that educated people in high positions are intelligent and knowledgeable. That's certainly not always the case, whether it be in politics, or management of an NHL team, or whatever else.

There's a reason why Button, Milbury and McLean aren't sitting behind a GM desk anymore; or even working as a scout.

I'm sure Scott Howson will make a great addition to the NHL 2Night panel one day.
LOL, the funny thing is Milbury gets a bad rap (a little). Yes, he's made some awful trades, but what most people don't know is that he was forced into many of those trades by a meddling owner. Milbury knows the game, he's just outlandish and a hot head who will NEVER work as an NHL executive again because of his reputation.

I get your point though. But, come on, Button isn't an idiot. In fact, he's had some of the best in-depth scouting reports I've seen in the last couple years. The guy knows the game and has an eye for talent. That doesn't make him Sam Pollock or Scotty Bowman, but he's not an idiot.

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03-01-2012, 11:05 AM
  #327
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By saying that I "appear to be" an idiot makes you appear to be one as well if we use your logic.

You are also making allot of assumptions about how Button got his job and how he performed while doing it..

You like his style then, o.k. that's fine but I have watched him go well out of his way to badmouth the Kings every chance he gets and can only really remember him saying anything actually positive about us on one occasion and that was only after everyone else had done so.

He wasn't any good at what he did in the NHL or he would be doing it today.

Those who can do, those who can't teach.

Of course there are the rare exceptions but I have no problem saying that Button isn"t one of them.

But heck, if you want to form your opinions based on what Button has to say then go right ahead. I can honestly say that I could absolutely care less about it. Have fun.

I get your whole reason for posting here, MR is the worst player yada yada yada.

Thanks for sharing.


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03-01-2012, 11:31 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Craig Button is a rambling idiot.
Without a doubt. His comments on the Jack Johnson trade were so laughable it was incredible. The Kings needed MORE defense? So the team with 3rd ranked defense (could have changed since then) and the 30th ranked offense which coincidentally includes one of the top scoring bluelines in the league, needs more defense. What a jack ass.

tomd,

It would be nice if you would address my last post when I basically asked you why on earth you would believe that out of all the players on the Kings teams, had Simmonds/Schenn been here, things would be different. It defies logic. But I'm all for reading your explanation. When you start making comments like "boyfriend" or throwing insults like "bum" at players, it is clear you have an agenda. Couple that with your body of work that I've become familiar with in the past 8 or 9 months, you are on a mission. Especially when you have done a complete 180 in 12 months time. I'm still waiting for tomd to admit he was either wrong last February when he said he is the type of player that wins Championships or he isn't being geniune now.

One final question tomd, what is it that you like about the Kings? If you hate the players, you hate the GM and you hate the ownership, you disagree with the a majority of the fan base, you presumably don't like the newest variation of jerseys, what is it that you like?

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03-01-2012, 11:55 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Without a doubt. His comments on the Jack Johnson trade were so laughable it was incredible. The Kings needed MORE defense? So the team with 3rd ranked defense (could have changed since then) and the 30th ranked offense which coincidentally includes one of the top scoring bluelines in the league, needs more defense. What a jack ass.

tomd,

It would be nice if you would address my last post when I basically asked you why on earth you would believe that out of all the players on the Kings teams, had Simmonds/Schenn been here, things would be different. It defies logic. But I'm all for reading your explanation. When you start making comments like "boyfriend" or throwing insults like "bum" at players, it is clear you have an agenda. Couple that with your body of work that I've become familiar with in the past 8 or 9 months, you are on a mission. Especially when you have done a complete 180 in 12 months time. I'm still waiting for tomd to admit he was either wrong last February when he said he is the type of player that wins Championships or he isn't being geniune now.

One final question tomd, what is it that you like about the Kings? If you hate the players, you hate the GM and you hate the ownership, you disagree with the a majority of the fan base, you presumably don't like the newest variation of jerseys, what is it that you like?
All right I'm going to try this one last time:
1. Richards is a GOOD player (or was anyway) that CAN help teams win championships. He was NOT worth giving up Schenn and Simmonds for though. However, his play this year is making me re-examine whether he is even a "good" player anymore. He has been mostly dreadful this year.
2. I was a supporter of Lombardi until about 18 months ago when HE started to deviate from HIS OWN PLAN. The Halpern acquisition was laughable and the Penner acquisition was even worse. The Richards trade finally showed convincingly that he has totally misread the talent level of this team. The signings of Hunter, Moreau, and Gagne were shameful. Being in 10th place on March 1st is EMBARASSING for the salaries he has brought in over the last 18 months.
3. Schenn and Simmonds would have been key members of a CORE that was supposed to develop together. I have maintained from day 1 of the Richards trade that LA would regret it and I'll stand by that. They should be winning year 1 of the trade HANDS DOWN but Richards awful play and the emergence of Simmonds and Schenn have made the trade a wash at best.

Bottom line - everyone wants LA to win a championship. The moves Lombardi has made in the past 18 months have moved them FURTHER away from that goal. That is disgraceful after 6 years.

For Richards personally, he has come here and underperformed in a major way. As a previous poster said quite well, his "leadership" (as he defined it) is lacking and his scoring is simply embarassing.

The more time that has gone by has only proved me more and more correct. To be feeling lucky to get the 8th seed in the playoffs is NOT a sign of progress nor is it acceptable after 6 years of Lombardi's mismanagement. Richards is getting paid HUGE money and is not earning it. Fans should be outraged but maybe they are so conditioned to failure that it doesn't bother them (or you). Well, it bothers me. And I hope it bothers AEG.

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03-01-2012, 12:05 PM
  #330
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^ What do you like about the Kings? Just curious...

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03-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
^ What do you like about the Kings? Just curious...
I have been a Kings fan longer than you have been alive. It is a hard habit to break.

I have found, however, that the WORST thing you can do is blindly follow a franchise and not hold them accountable. That plays right into the hands of incompetent management, players, and ownership.

I will not be a pom-pom waving cheerleader for this or any other team. Incompetence MUST be called out...whether it is the players, the coach, the management, or the owners. That is the ONLY way you'll get accountability and ultimately the championship you want.

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03-01-2012, 12:30 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
I have been a Kings fan longer than you have been alive. It is a hard habit to break.

I have found, however, that the WORST thing you can do is blindly follow a franchise and not hold them accountable. That plays right into the hands of incompetent management, players, and ownership.

I will not be a pom-pom waving cheerleader for this or any other team. Incompetence MUST be called out...whether it is the players, the coach, the management, or the owners. That is the ONLY way you'll get accountability and ultimately the championship you want.
like how they do it in toronto? Probably one of the toughest hockey markets out there with just booming success the last 6 years?

cross that with phoenix who, on the other hand, still hasn't figured out they have a team yet are remarkably successful?

Yes, definitely a correlation between being tough on your team and their success

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03-01-2012, 12:39 PM
  #333
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Incompetence MUST be called out...whether it is the players, the coach, the management, or the owners. That is the ONLY way you'll get accountability and ultimately the championship you want.
You must be joking. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the owners opinion and if the team is making money. Want to take a stand? Stop going to games and buying Kings gear. Will it matter? Not one bit, because your just one guy and 99.9% of Kings fans are not as extreme as you. Ranting and raving on a message board in an effort to prove that you are right has nothing to do with the Kings and if they end-up with the first pick in the draft or if they raise the cup.

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03-01-2012, 12:43 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
like how they do it in toronto? Probably one of the toughest hockey markets out there with just booming success the last 6 years?

cross that with phoenix who, on the other hand, still hasn't figured out they have a team yet are remarkably successful?

Yes, definitely a correlation between being tough on your team and their success
Every fan has to make the personal decision on how they root for their team. I have gone from blind cheerleading (in my youth) to a more objective viewpoint.

I can't begrudge those who are in the "blind cheerleading" phase because I was there once myself. I generally don't criticize fans who are 100% emotional and 0% objective. I have noticed, however, that they criticize me for not drinking the kool-aid. I am fine with that.

After 40 years of watching hockey I think I know a thing or two. My opinions are based upon that 40 years of knowledge. So far I have been much more right than wrong.

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03-01-2012, 12:46 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by ScoreZeGoals View Post
You must be joking. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the owners opinion and if the team is making money. Want to take a stand? Stop going to games and buying Kings gear. Will it matter? Not one bit, because your just one guy and 99.9% of Kings fans are not as extreme as you. Ranting and raving on a message board in an effort to prove that you are right has nothing to do with the Kings and if they end-up with the first pick in the draft or if they raise the cup.
No argument but then why do any of us post??? I hope this message board never gets reduced to an echo chamber where only the kool-aid drinkers tell each other how great the team COULD be if only...

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03-01-2012, 01:01 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
By saying that I "appear to be" an idiot makes you appear to be one as well if we use your logic.

You are also making allot of assumptions about how Button got his job and how he performed while doing it..

You like his style then, o.k. that's fine but I have watched him go well out of his way to badmouth the Kings every chance he gets and can only really remember him saying anything actually positive about us on one occasion and that was only after everyone else had done so.

He wasn't any good at what he did in the NHL or he would be doing it today.

Those who can do, those who can't teach.

Of course there are the rare exceptions but I have no problem saying that Button isn"t one of them.

But heck, if you want to form your opinions based on what Button has to say then go right ahead. I can honestly say that I could absolutely care less about it. Have fun.

I get your whole reason for posting here, MR is the worst player yada yada yada.

Thanks for sharing.

Tonelli,

Why are you spouting off a bunch of hyperbole? Did you even READ what I wrote?

You just said, "if you like his style then, ok" after I clearly said, "personally I don't find Button be entertaining or engaging."

You also accused me of "basing my opinions off what Button said" and where have I done that? I don't even know WHAT he said about Mike Richards. My opinion of Mike Richards is based on what I know from people who work for the Flyers organization currently and from ex-members. It has NOTHING to do with Craig Button....my only point at all about Button is "He knows the game". I think he does, you don't. Fine, let's move on.

But you accused me of posting here just to say "Mike Richards is the worst player, yada yada yada". I mean, can you possibly be more hyperbolic than this? I expressed my views on Richards as a "leader" and again, clearly said, "THAT DOESN'T MEAN MIKE RICHARDS IS NOT A GOOD PLAYER".

I have no problem discussing topics and can be very fair even if I disagree with someone. I just don't why you are being extreme and making up stuff I didn't say.

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03-01-2012, 01:02 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
I have been a Kings fan longer than you have been alive. It is a hard habit to break.

I have found, however, that the WORST thing you can do is blindly follow a franchise and not hold them accountable. That plays right into the hands of incompetent management, players, and ownership.

I will not be a pom-pom waving cheerleader for this or any other team. Incompetence MUST be called out...whether it is the players, the coach, the management, or the owners. That is the ONLY way you'll get accountability and ultimately the championship you want.
You didn't answer my question. What do you like about the team?

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03-01-2012, 01:05 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
like how they do it in toronto? Probably one of the toughest hockey markets out there with just booming success the last 6 years?

cross that with phoenix who, on the other hand, still hasn't figured out they have a team yet are remarkably successful?

Yes, definitely a correlation between being tough on your team and their success
THIS is exactly where tomd's argument falls flat on it's face. How many cups have Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Buffalo, Edmonton earned combined over the last 20 years? I think one can go out on a limb and say that each of these fanbases are involved, vocal, know the game, and demand the best.

New Jersey, Tampa Bay, Carolina in contrast all have (by most standards) a pretty mellow group of fans. Do you think that cups were brought to these cities because they were kicking down the door of the GM's office, DEMANDING accountability?

Ridiculous nonsense.

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03-01-2012, 01:09 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
You didn't answer my question. What do you like about the team?
Quite honestly these days it is just force of habit.

But it is an interesting question...they are the Kings and that is the only answer I can give.

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03-01-2012, 01:11 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
THIS is exactly where tomd's argument falls flat on it's face. How many cups have Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Buffalo, Edmonton earned combined over the last 20 years? I think one can go out on a limb and say that each of these fanbases are involved, vocal, know the game, and demand the best.

New Jersey, Tampa Bay, Carolina in contrast all have (by most standards) a pretty mellow group of fans. Do you think that cups were brought to these cities because they were kicking down the door of the GM's office, DEMANDING accountability?

Ridiculous nonsense.
I don't think you got the gist of my argument...it is a PERSONAL decision every fan must make for themselves.

Viewed another way, your argument falls flat as well. If a rabid, emotional, kool-aid drinking fan base where all that were needed to win a SC then Calgary, Toronto, and Montreal would be playing for it every year. Wouldn't they?

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03-01-2012, 01:16 PM
  #341
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I never questioned Mike's leadership but I do agree with Button who says "he is a shell of his former self."

Like Tomd said, we gave away key components of our core going forward for this guy. Now the majority of the star players on this team are 27-28....what happens in 3 years? Schenn and Simmonds were supposed to take the reigns at the forward position...Who does now? Loktionov? Clifford? Those two are 3rd and 4th liners.

Williams is 30, Gagne is 32, Brown 27, Richards 27, Carter 27.

Who takes over in 3 years? Please tell me?

Lombardi's philosophy was to get better and younger every year....how does that happen when you trade away two stud younger players for one flailing older one.

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03-01-2012, 01:18 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
You didn't answer my question. What do you like about the team?
Not to jump in, but can I also answer this? Since I'v been accused of just coming here to bash Richards, I'd like to to chime in....

I like the history of the Kings. I loved Dionne, Simmer, Gretzky, Vachon, Robitaille, Granato, Blake, etc. I even have a Rogie Vachon sweater. I also always thought the Kings were a neat and entertaining team because I love their uniforms going back to the expansion. The purple and gold were among the greatest uniforms in NHL history IMO. Living on the East Coast, the Kings were always one of the teams in the West I liked the best. I stayed up many late nights watching the Gretzky, Robitaille, Stumpel, Palffy, Norstrom years.

Currently, I think the Kings are a good team who should be playing better. I am a HUGE fan of Brown, Kopitar, Doughty and Quick and have been for a while. But, just being honest, from an outsider's perspective, I thought the Kings were headed on the right track a couple of years ago (in fact I predicted they would win a Cup within 3 more years) but I think Lombardi has made some bad moves and has actually weakened the team.

As a Flyers fan first and foremost, I feel a certain connection to the Kings because so many members of the Flyers organization are now in LA. So not only did I always like the Kings (for decades) but I want them to do good. When PHI/LA made the Richards trade I was honestly torn.... I was THRILLED with the Flyers getting Schenn/Simmonds but I was mad that the Kings got Richards (from the Kings point of view). I thought LA overpaid for Mike Richards then and I do even more today. As much as I respected Gagne as a player, I was puzzled when DL signed him. But I have to say, bringing in Carter and reuniting him with Richards is the worst idea IMO. I'm kind of bugged because I cheer for the Kings but now two of the players I couldn't stand on Philly are now on the Kings!!

I just hope the "rumors" of the Kings looking to unload Dustin Brown eventually to make Mike Richards captain don't materialize. Just like Simmonds, I think Dustin Brown is vastly under-appreciated around the league. When the Richards trade happened, Rick Tocchet was one of the first people who discussed the trade in Philly and said, "Wayne Simmonds will score 35-40 goals in this league one day and he hits, fights and has an unmatched work ethic." Well, that is what Richards supposedly is and more....the difference is, Simmonds is doing it well in Philly right now and Richards has struggled with the Kings. I'm not surprised by either. Simmonds has become a fan-favorite in Philly overnight and Richards is still finding his game in LA.

I just want to be clear....I'm not a troll, I'm not a hater and I have nothing against any of you guys at all. I also would like to see Richards and Carter mature into star players and live up to their talents in LA. If they do, the Kings will be very happy. I just have my doubts.

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03-01-2012, 01:28 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Not to jump in, but can I also answer this? Since I'v been accused of just coming here to bash Richards, I'd like to to chime in....

I like the history of the Kings. I loved Dionne, Simmer, Gretzky, Vachon, Robitaille, Granato, Blake, etc. I even have a Rogie Vachon sweater. I also always thought the Kings were a neat and entertaining team because I love their uniforms going back to the expansion. The purple and gold were among the greatest uniforms in NHL history IMO. Living on the East Coast, the Kings were always one of the teams in the West I liked the best. I stayed up many late nights watching the Gretzky, Robitaille, Stumpel, Palffy, Norstrom years.

Currently, I think the Kings are a good team who should be playing better. I am a HUGE fan of Brown, Kopitar, Doughty and Quick and have been for a while. But, just being honest, from an outsider's perspective, I thought the Kings were headed on the right track a couple of years ago (in fact I predicted they would win a Cup within 3 more years) but I think Lombardi has made some bad moves and has actually weakened the team.

As a Flyers fan first and foremost, I feel a certain connection to the Kings because so many members of the Flyers organization are now in LA. So not only did I always like the Kings (for decades) but I want them to do good. When PHI/LA made the Richards trade I was honestly torn.... I was THRILLED with the Flyers getting Schenn/Simmonds but I was mad that the Kings got Richards (from the Kings point of view). I thought LA overpaid for Mike Richards then and I do even more today. As much as I respected Gagne as a player, I was puzzled when DL signed him. But I have to say, bringing in Carter and reuniting him with Richards is the worst idea IMO. I'm kind of bugged because I cheer for the Kings but now two of the players I couldn't stand on Philly are now on the Kings!!

I just hope the "rumors" of the Kings looking to unload Dustin Brown eventually to make Mike Richards captain don't materialize. Just like Simmonds, I think Dustin Brown is vastly under-appreciated around the league. When the Richards trade happened, Rick Tocchet was one of the first people who discussed the trade in Philly and said, "Wayne Simmonds will score 35-40 goals in this league one day and he hits, fights and has an unmatched work ethic." Well, that is what Richards supposedly is and more....the difference is, Simmonds is doing it well in Philly right now and Richards has struggled with the Kings. I'm not surprised by either. Simmonds has become a fan-favorite in Philly overnight and Richards is still finding his game in LA.

I just want to be clear....I'm not a troll, I'm not a hater and I have nothing against any of you guys at all. I also would like to see Richards and Carter mature into star players and live up to their talents in LA. If they do, the Kings will be very happy. I just have my doubts.
Quality post - your thoughts and contributions are welcome here anytime.

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03-01-2012, 01:31 PM
  #344
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Quality post - your thoughts and contributions are welcome here anytime.
Thank you.

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03-01-2012, 01:32 PM
  #345
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I completely agree with everything Gustafsson said.

You can add Flyers fans to the list of now Kings fans, Button, Barry, Hammond, Fox and even Richards himself frustrated or disappointed in his play.

P.S. I love when posters online trash current or former GM's....considering 90% of us are doing normal day jobs and never worked in hockey in our lives let alone a former NHL General Manager. You don't get there being an idiot. Sure, they make bad decisions but they know more than most of us.

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03-01-2012, 01:34 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I never questioned Mike's leadership but I do agree with Button who says "he is a shell of his former self."

Like Tomd said, we gave away key components of our core going forward for this guy. Now the majority of the star players on this team are 27-28....what happens in 3 years? Schenn and Simmonds were supposed to take the reigns at the forward position...Who does now? Loktionov? Clifford? Those two are 3rd and 4th liners.

Williams is 30, Gagne is 32, Brown 27, Richards 27, Carter 27.

Who takes over in 3 years? Please tell me?

Lombardi's philosophy was to get better and younger every year....how does that happen when you trade away two stud younger players for one flailing older one.
This is a key point and was what I alluded to above when I said that he started going against his own plan. It is such a shame too because things could have been so much different with a more competent GM.

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03-01-2012, 01:37 PM
  #347
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Lombardi's quote...."You get younger every year, and the goal is to get better every day."

It's even mentioned in his LA Kings.com profile.

http://kings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=41315

Whenever Lombardi goes against his own plan is when he seems to make the most mistakes.

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03-01-2012, 01:43 PM
  #348
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I completely agree with everything Gustafsson said.

You can add Flyers fans to the list of now Kings fans, Button, Barry, Hammond, Fox and even Richards himself frustrated or disappointed in his play.

P.S. I love when posters online trash current or former GM's....considering 90% of us are doing normal day jobs and never worked in hockey in our lives let alone a former NHL General Manager. You don't get there being an idiot. Sure, they make bad decisions but they know more than most of us.
Does that apply to DL as well? I'm actually a Milbury fan btw. Even though he says some stupid stuff sometimes I do agree with him quite a bit and he isn't shy about sharing his opinions even if they aren't popular. Craig Button on the other hand, he appears to have an axe to grind with DL or the Kings because he is often off base in his analysis with the team. Look at what I referenced in a previous post regarding the Jack Johnson trade. He just simply wasn't very informed on the Kings position offensively and defensively in the league. He may have been a GM but he had is FACTS wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
This is a key point and was what I alluded to above when I said that he started going against his own plan. It is such a shame too because things could have been so much different with a more competent GM.
I'm pretty sure the Kings are younger this year than they were last year. I could be wrong but I think DL has said that this year so either he is mistaken or you are. I can't imagine they are especially after the emergence of Nolan/King and the swap of Voynov/Johnson. I believe he actually mentioned this year being similar to the year when he was fired by San Jose. I beileve they missed the playoffs that year and have been considered "elite" ever since.


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03-01-2012, 01:43 PM
  #349
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I completely agree with everything Gustafsson said.

You can add Flyers fans to the list of now Kings fans, Button, Barry, Hammond, Fox and even Richards himself frustrated or disappointed in his play.
I don't think anyone isn't disappointed and/or frustrated in his current play; it's just that it isn't as dire as some are acting. He just turned 28 and Carter is 27, it's not like these are aging stars, they will still be around for 8 or 9 years. The Kings time to win is over the next 5 years and both Richards and Carter, along with Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Quick and Williams need to be the leaders on the ice to get it done. Not everything is Richards fault. No way to know if Simmonds and Schenn would have been better in LA over the next 5 years and constantly bringing it up isnít going to change the fact that Simmonds and Schenn are gone forever. Be happy that they are in the eastern conference and you can enjoy their play without any direct competition to the Kings unless they meet in the finals.

There is no guarantee that the Kings would be any better right now or in the future with Simmonds and Schenn. Itís always a gamble to make moves or not, some work out for both teams and some donít. Not every trade has to have a winner and loser. They can both lose and both win.

Jack and a 1st for Carter can work out for both teams. The Kings traded from their strength (something everyone wanted) to add a player to fill a weakness. It is now up to Sutter/Kompon/Stevens to get the most out of the players. I donít think Murray was ever able to do that. I still have my doubts about Sutter too. It may take an entire regime change to get the current roster to perform at a higher level.

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03-01-2012, 01:46 PM
  #350
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Lombardi's quote...."You get younger every year, and the goal is to get better every day."

It's even mentioned in his LA Kings.com profile.

http://kings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=41315

Whenever Lombardi goes against his own plan is when he seems to make the most mistakes.
Kings are the 2nd youngest team in the NHL right now, post trade deadline. They are also the 2nd largest team in the NHL. That seems to fit with Lombardi's plan.

Mitchell has been the best defensive defenseman on the Kings and he is the oldest player on the team. He re-signed because he believes that the Kings could win a cup in the next 2 years. I'll take his belief over yours.

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