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Old
03-01-2012, 01:27 PM
  #376
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
That was the 1 obvious one Sydor....Okay, so you have Kopitar, Loktionov, Clifford, Nolan and King....Ummm okay....A #1 center, a #3 center and three 4th line LW'ers.
What if the Kings win the Stanley Cup in 2 years? What if Richards and Carter help win it? Did you know that Detroit is one of the oldest teams in the league? Most of their IMPACT players are over 30. Players don't die at 30. How old was Yzerman when he won his first cup?

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03-01-2012, 01:27 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
That is a fair assesment but I think most of us here believe(d) the Kings needed an upgrade a second line center if they were going to be a legitimate contender. Just ask Herby. That being said, having an expectation that a rookie would come in here and fill that role was a recipe for disaster. Could it have worked? Sure. But I don't think that was a gamble DL was willing to take. Had he stood pat with Stoll, the same people would be complaining about his reluctance to do anything with his beloved prospects and one of them would be PSP. You've seen his rap on potential. It means nothing until it is realized. So had DL held onto Schenn and Simmonds, we'd have a slew of people on here whining about how DL never does anything and how we can't wait 3, 4, 5 years for Schenn to develop. Instead, he brings a guy with a great track record, somebody who was praised by a poster 3/4 months prior to that, then he is disparaged for bringing in said player. Sounds like a Goldilocks fan to me.

I don't give a **** what DL does with this team as long as they win. They aren't winning so it is he who I blame. I also don't think it is the player personnel. I've posted it in this thread by who in their right mind at the beginning of the season thought the Blues would be better than the Kings when they are using a number of the same players they used the past few seasons and this is a team that (I'm pretty sure) missed the playoffs every year since the lockout. To me, that says one thing. We have a problem with coaching and potentially with leadership. When you look through the roster and see the number of players that have played in or won a SCF, I strongly believe it is the former more than the latter. It doesn't mean there isn't a problem with leadership but history suggests otherwise.

BTW.. prior to the Richards trade, i suggested signing Jason Arnott and everyone's favorite, Johnny Utah, all but called that a stupid idea. 15g/15a in 57 games and +11. The Kings would still have Schenn/Simmonds had they done it. It would have allowed Schenn a year of development on the 4th line or in Manchester. Doesn't seem like such a stupid idea now.
A lot of what you're saying here is true, but I fail to see how it justifies the Richards trade.

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03-01-2012, 01:32 PM
  #378
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This thread is going way too fast for me, but I saw somebody mention that we could trade Jack to Philly for Carter...no we could not have. Trading Jack for Carter took advantage of the stupidest GM left in the league, and Carter's value while with the Flyers was incredibly high. I also believe opinions of Jack Johnson are far lesser around the league than they are here at HFB.

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03-01-2012, 01:32 PM
  #379
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Vancouver and San Jose are the type of teams that make the Richards trade, not the Kings. We are just not as far along as them and to speed up the process Lombardi paid a huge price for what he thought would be a savior and game changer. Instead, we have 16 pages of debate and numerous media sources and writers as well as fans questioning it too.

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Old
03-01-2012, 01:33 PM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
That was the 1 obvious one Sydor....Okay, so you have Kopitar, Loktionov, Clifford, Nolan and King....Ummm okay....A #1 center, a #3 center and three 4th line LW'ers.

With Schenn and Simmonds you would have had a #2 center and a second line RW.

XXX-Kopitar-XXX
XXX-Schenn-Simmonds
King-Loktionov-XXX
Clifford-XXX-Nolan (playing out of regular LW)
How do you know that? Simmonds was trending down in LA, he could have trended down this season too and that would have been 2 years of a downward trend. The same situation that people are freaking out about Richards. Put Richards back into a balanced attacking team with a regime change and maybe he trends back up?

Schenn is still all about potential. No way to know if he would have survived in a defense only system. LA could have kept both players and Dean could still get fired. I would rather have Richards now, doesn't mean either one of is right since there is no way to go back. LA has Richards and Philly has Schenn and Simmonds.

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03-01-2012, 01:35 PM
  #381
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Brayden Schenn has 8 goals in an injury riddled season. Richards has 14 and 0 in almost 30 games...he wouldn't be any worse....

Sydor, Simmonds could've also become the player he is now under Sutter who is now putting King on the power play.

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03-01-2012, 01:38 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
This thread is going way too fast for me, but I saw somebody mention that we could trade Jack to Philly for Carter...no we could not have. Trading Jack for Carter took advantage of the stupidest GM left in the league, and Carter's value while with the Flyers was incredibly high. I also believe opinions of Jack Johnson are far lesser around the league than they are here at HFB.
I'm not sure about that. Seems that most GMs don't care as much about +/- as some do here. GMs love Jack's physical abilities and work ethic as much as people around here do. If you look at most of the blogs about Jack Johnson, they are mostly negative, yet he seemed to be highly coveted around the league. He's been in trade rumors for years, which usually means he is highly coveted.

Fans love Jack and seem to easily forgive his mistakes. GMs probably do too because he has that "potential" to put it all together. Everyone knows he has the physical gifts to do it, but does he have the "it" moment that turns everything around?

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03-01-2012, 01:43 PM
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Brayden Schenn has 8 goals in an injury riddled season. Richards has 14 and 0 in almost 30 games...he wouldn't be any worse....

Sydor, Simmonds could've also become the player he is now under Sutter who is now putting King on the power play.
Yes, but that is just too many ifs. How do you explain Simmonds "poor" season in LA last year? Do you agree that he was given tougher defensive assignments in LA than he is in Philly? If he is such a scoring machine 5-on-5, why is he a minus player? Dustin has fewer goals than Simmonds. Does that mean he sucks and should be traded for Simmonds? Does it matter to you that Dustin is a +10 and Simmonds is a -2?

Do you think that Richards would be scoring more in a balanced system? Do you think that Richards would continue to struggle if the style was changed with a regime change? If Richards wins a cup before Simmonds, does your opinion change? Is the Stanley Cup the ultimate goal or exciting hockey?

I don't think it is a surprise to anyone here that I believe that Dean's philosophy no longer applies in the NHL, defense does not win championships anymore. Balance is the biggest key, with offense slighty more important. The Kings desperately need to open up the offense, even if it results in more turnovers or chances against. If Quick and the defense is as good as we think, they should be able to handle a more uptempo style and be able to out score teams.

With no additions, next season's roster doesn't look that bad to me.

Brown-Kopitar-Williams
Gagne-Richards-Carter
Clifford-Loktionov-Lewis
King-Richardson-Nolan
Westgarth

Scuderi-Doughty
Mitchell-Voynov
Martinez-Greene
Drewiske/Hickey/Muzzin

Quick/Bernier

If Dean could get Mollor and/or Holloway back from overseas, the bottom six could be improved without any more FAs.


Last edited by Sydor25: 03-01-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old
03-01-2012, 01:43 PM
  #384
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I pulled this from the Columbus board...now you have another former NHL employee, this time Tyson Nash saying this below...

I'm watching the PHO/EDM game(Vermette is looking good for them, so happy for that) and the PHO announcers started talking about the Kings and from what they were saying things aren't so well in La-la land.

Basically they said that when the Yotes played the Kings on Tues, there was a discord among the players and it started beginning of the year because of the trade for Richards. Tyson Nash(PHO announcer) went on to say that "the character of the team" was changed(basically incenuated that Wayne Simmonds was the locker room glue guy) and now with the trade talk about Dustin Brown, a lot of the guys aren't too happy.


So now add Nash to the list that includes Button.

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03-01-2012, 01:48 PM
  #385
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I think one of the reasons that the Kings were more comfortable trading Schenn/Simmonds is Toffoli. The guy scores at every level he's played at, he isn't a small guy, and he's a very dynamic and confident player. He has 1st line winger potential written all over him, at worst a 2nd liner.

Wouldn't be surprised at all to see him stick next year, the following season for sure.

Also the lineup the Kings are icing right now is one of the youngest, if not the youngest, in the NHL.

So we've gotten younger. Better.... no.

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03-01-2012, 01:49 PM
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Brayden Schenn has 8 goals in an injury riddled season. Richards has 14 and 0 in almost 30 games...he wouldn't be any worse....

Sydor, Simmonds could've also become the player he is now under Sutter who is now putting King on the power play.
In our system? You're comparing apples to oranges man. With 8 goals, Schenn would be the FIFTH highest goal scorer on our team. Do you really think a rookie playing third line center between what most likely would have been an underperforming Kyle Clifford and Trevor Lewis would be the fifth most effective scorer on our team? And with the wishy-washy way our coaches (at least Terry Murray) have handled the younger players? Starting, sitting, moving up lines for 2 games and then moving them down lines and benching them again for no good reason?

I also see what you're saying with the coaching change, but with all players there will be a transition period under a new system. Simmonds switched to a run-and-gun system and only had 9 points in his first 26 games before getting comfortable and breaking out.

Meanwhile, Richards and the rest of the Kings are getting accustomed to a different, but still defensive minded system. I'm not making excuses for him, he has disappointed offensively, but I personally don't think that Simmonds and Schenn would have done much better than our skilled players in TM's crappy system, or that they would have suddenly turned it on after switching to a different defensive system under Sutter.

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03-01-2012, 01:52 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I pulled this from the Columbus board...now you have another former NHL employee, this time Tyson Nash saying this below...

I'm watching the PHO/EDM game(Vermette is looking good for them, so happy for that) and the PHO announcers started talking about the Kings and from what they were saying things aren't so well in La-la land.

Basically they said that when the Yotes played the Kings on Tues, there was a discord among the players and it started beginning of the year because of the trade for Richards. Tyson Nash(PHO announcer) went on to say that "the character of the team" was changed(basically incenuated that Wayne Simmonds was the locker room glue guy) and now with the trade talk about Dustin Brown, a lot of the guys aren't too happy.


So now add Nash to the list that includes Button.
Tyson Nash is clown shoes.

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03-01-2012, 01:52 PM
  #388
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So what I gather is there are plenty of people around here that would be perfectly content if the Kings were in a similar position but had Schenn/Simmonds on the roster because the Kings would still have a future even if has been 6 years into a rebuild.

I personally hope this year was a hiccup in the process of reaching the next level. Everyone around here has something they like to do whether it be working out, playing guitars, education, whatever. In my experience, it seems as though you can try really hard at something but not get the desired results even though the effort to warrant the results is being put in. Sometimes you have to take a step back and focus on how you get to that next level and break through that plateau. I really hope that is where the Kings are at because if we waited 6 years and this is as good as it gets, that stinks. And I have a hard time believing that is the case. This team has been remarkably inconsistent this year and previous two years weren't nearly like this. That makes me think with a change in coach and possibly GM, a few minor tweaks to the roster and the Kings could be where we all want them to be.

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03-01-2012, 01:54 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
I think one of the reasons that the Kings were more comfortable trading Schenn/Simmonds is Toffoli. The guy scores at every level he's played at, he isn't a small guy, and he's a very dynamic and confident player. He has 1st line winger potential written all over him, at worst a 2nd liner.

Wouldn't be surprised at all to see him stick next year, the following season for sure.

Also the lineup the Kings are icing right now is one of the youngest, if not the youngest, in the NHL.

So we've gotten younger. Better.... no.
Toffoli is going to be a boom/bust prospect. Everyone knew he could score at the draft but there is a reason he went 47th...skating.

He is our "great white hope" now but he will find the transition to the NHL pace to be a major challenge. He reminds me in a way of Craig Duncanson...great junior scorer but couldn't skate and never made it.

Toffoli may carve a career in the NHL as a PP specialist but hopefully you are right and he can score and play on a top line at the NHL level.

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03-01-2012, 01:55 PM
  #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I pulled this from the Columbus board...now you have another former NHL employee, this time Tyson Nash saying this below...

I'm watching the PHO/EDM game(Vermette is looking good for them, so happy for that) and the PHO announcers started talking about the Kings and from what they were saying things aren't so well in La-la land.

Basically they said that when the Yotes played the Kings on Tues, there was a discord among the players and it started beginning of the year because of the trade for Richards. Tyson Nash(PHO announcer) went on to say that "the character of the team" was changed(basically incenuated that Wayne Simmonds was the locker room glue guy) and now with the trade talk about Dustin Brown, a lot of the guys aren't too happy.


So now add Nash to the list that includes Button.
I could give two ***** or a **** about what that DBag Tyson Nash thinks. He's always been anti L.A. And has ne'er hesitated to throw L.A. under the bus.

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03-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #391
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A lot of what you're saying here is true, but I fail to see how it justifies the Richards trade.
I said it in my first sentence. The Kings needed an upgrade if they wanted to be a contender so they made a move. Putting a rookie in that position was a recipe for disaster. The prudent move would have been to sign a guy like Arnott or make a smaller move for a veteran holdover. Or maybe ship out Stoll and put Handzus in that spot. There are a lot of other things DL could have done but he more than likely would have been criticized for that as well. There are some people around here that are going to complain no matter what he does and they'll do the same when the next GM comes in.

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03-01-2012, 02:01 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
So what I gather is there are plenty of people around here that would be perfectly content if the Kings were in a similar position but had Schenn/Simmonds on the roster because the Kings would still have a future even if has been 6 years into a rebuild.

I personally hope this year was a hiccup in the process of reaching the next level. Everyone around here has something they like to do whether it be working out, playing guitars, education, whatever. In my experience, it seems as though you can try really hard at something but not get the desired results even though the effort to warrant the results is being put in. Sometimes you have to take a step back and focus on how you get to that next level and break through that plateau. I really hope that is where the Kings are at because if we waited 6 years and this is as good as it gets, that stinks. And I have a hard time believing that is the case. This team has been remarkably inconsistent this year and previous two years weren't nearly like this. That makes me think with a change in coach and possibly GM, a few minor tweaks to the roster and the Kings could be where we all want them to be.
I agree, I'm not saying the players have put in their all this year, and they are partly to blame for underperforming. But I have followed the Kings for 25 years now, and the last year and a half or so, our trap game under TM was seriously some of the most boring hockey I've ever watched. I'm not saying it doesn't win games, but it just doesn't give the players (on either end) many scoring chances at all. When you're winning, it's all fine and dandy, but when you're losing, the offensive struggles and the defense first system compound one another and you get to where we're at in terms of inept offense. But I don't see this as an isolated problem with Richards. Maybe he's not as offensively explosive as his numbers in Philly suggested, as we're seeing now with the contrast in styles between the teams, but he's still a gritty two-way guy I feel like we needed at the time, and I'm looking forward to giving him some more time, especially with Sutter's bit more open style of play, to get comfortable and settle in as a (hopefully) 60 or so point #2 center that is defensively responsible.

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03-01-2012, 02:02 PM
  #393
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If he is such a scoring machine 5-on-5, why is he a minus player?

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03-01-2012, 02:02 PM
  #394
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Recipe for disaster? We fired our coach, every player except our goalie is having a poor stats years, we have one of the higher payrolls and 10th in the conference, and have no draft picks? How much worse could it get?

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03-01-2012, 02:05 PM
  #395
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So we've gotten younger. Better.... no.
I disagree, we aren't younger, but we are probably better, or should be.

Obviously losing Smyth and Handzus made the team younger. But Handzus is on his last legs and Smyth isn't an NHL player from January on. I don't think either would be part of the "core"

The core from the end of last season has seen the additions of Voynov (22), Carter (27), Richards (27)

with the subtractions of Johnson (25), Schenn (20) and Simmonds (23) + a 1st round pick and 2nd round pick.

Not exactly getting younger in regards to important players.

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03-01-2012, 02:19 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Have you watched how the Flyers play versus how the Kings play? They score more goals and give up more goals than the Kings do, in all situations. That is the system, they thought you could just plug in a goalie that was successful in a defensive system (Bryz) and everything would be fixed defensively. Did that work out or are they looking for another solution and have a 31-year old goalie signed for 9 more years.

Isn't simmonds and schenn minus players at even strength (or SH) and Richards is a plus player? Doesn't that mean the kings are scoring more at even strength (or SH) than the other team with Richards on the ice, while the Flyers are scoring fewer goals at even strength (or SH) when Simmonds or schenn is on the ice?

If Richards is preventing more goals against than he is scoring, isn't that a good thing? Do I wish he was doing even better, or course, but I also realize that he is getting the toughest assignments and with Carter on the team now, Kopitar and Brown are finding more room on the ice and are scoring. Will it continues? Who knows, that is why they play the game.

I still believe in the roster, just not the style that is favored by the current regime.
Simmonds was more productive in the Kings system, than Richards was in the Flyers system, at even strength, over the course of the 09-10 and 10-11 seasons.

Link: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=#post44545967

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03-01-2012, 02:22 PM
  #397
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Exactly.

What has made us younger is all the bottom 6; Nolan, King, Lewis, Clifford....

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03-01-2012, 02:24 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Simmonds was more productive in the Kings system, than Richards was in the Flyers system, at even strength, over the course of the 09-10 and 10-11 seasons.

Link: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=#post44545967
That also completely ignores contributions not directly related to the stat sheet. Basing the argument solely on the fact that Simmonds was more productive at even strength ignores Richards' contributions on the penalty kill, the power play, in the defensive zone, in the faceoff dot, and especially doesn't factor in Richards' innate ability to read and react better than a lot of players.

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03-01-2012, 02:30 PM
  #399
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I said it in my first sentence.
Yes the Kings needed an upgrade at center. That still doesn't justify the trade. Losing Simmonds cancels out the production Richards brings in, then on top of that you're trading away the top ranked prospect in the world and a 2nd.

What I'm saying is that Richards isn't good enough to justify giving up that much, even though we needed a center. I guess you think he is that good, I don't.

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03-01-2012, 02:32 PM
  #400
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Wayne Simmonds had LA tattooed on his ass. He fought Getzlaf, Perry, and Brookbank...he hated the Ducks and they hated him. He did everything Lombardi and his staff wanted a prospect to do....and he is gone. Wayne stepped up in the playoffs...a heart and soul guy who the fans loved. We home grew him and he was our best draft besides Doughty under Lombardi.

Now, we got stuck with Corey Perry's friend Mike Richards. A Flyer at heart, a player who has declining stats 4 years in a row, a captain who's own general manager and owner wanted out.

I just will never get it.

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