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Rebuilding our defense...

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Old
02-28-2012, 02:25 AM
  #51
llamapalooza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Maybe the offense should help chip in and pass the puck out of the zone and generate you know some changes.



This team struggles offensively and has struggled offensively because we have no offense. Forward, defense. But you don't throw everything out just because you can't get one guy to move the puck from the blueline.

To know Minnesota hockey you need to know this;

1) Any forward coming in will not shoot the puck
2) Any opposing forward will always have a welcome home in front of the crease
3) Any defenseman that can't score is automatically a scapegoat.
With (1), I disagree. There are just as many times where the Wild lose an offensive opportunity by shooting when they had a much better cycling opportunity. Look at all the times on the PP when, say, Cullen takes a garbage shot from outside the circles that the goalie handles very easily, leading to a clear or a face off and half the PP time getting wasted.

(2) is absolutely true.

As for (3), I could give a rat's ass about points from the blue line (though a scoring threat from the point does make the forwards harder to defend). I just want the D to keep the puck out of the net and make sure that we maintain possession when breaking out of our zone and through neutral ice.

The real problem, and the thing I think is most iconic of Wild hockey, is what I call "dump and watch" hockey. Sometimes it's the D throwing it out to neutral ice for a quick change instead of facilitating a change while maintaining possession. Other times it's the forwards being incredibly lazy on the forecheck and just watching the other guys retrieve it. And sometimes it's the D and backcheckers' fault for sucking at recovering the puck and forcing the forwards to throw it in and change the moment they hit the red line. But for years now all of them have ruined this team's ability to maintain offensive pressure.

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02-28-2012, 07:22 AM
  #52
nickschultzfan
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If we signed Suter/Carle/Wideman, along with bringing in Gilbert and Kampfer (I think Foster won't make it to next year), Brodin will be in Sweden or the AHL.

Suter-Scandella/Spurgeon
Gilbert-Spurgeon/Scandella
Kampfer/Prosser-Stoner/Falk

That's 8 guys who could play, plus the boys in Houston. With Suter, Scandella or Spurgeon would become very good.

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02-28-2012, 10:09 AM
  #53
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Fletcher will either sign Suter or trade for a big time #1 defenseman by summer of 2013. After this summer we will have a glut of prospects and can start using them to fill holes. The question is whether it happens this summer or next.

Pros to this summer, we have a chance to compete for the playoffs, and if we can nab Suter in free agency, don't give up anything.

Pros to next summer, we will have more chips to trade and another year under all the prospects belts to see how they develop. Better understanding of how to fill needs.

Brodin will be an excellent puck mover who can play against the top competition and get the puck, skate it out of trouble if need be, or else see the ice and make a great first pass. Much like Johnsson was. He need a big, physical, shutdown guy to play alongside him who has experience and is skilled enough to play those minutes. Suter is the ideal candidate.

____/Suter - Brodin
Scandella - Spurgeon
Prosser - Gilbert
Falk, Cuma, etc

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02-28-2012, 10:24 AM
  #54
rynryn
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if gilbert is supposed to be a cornerstone of our new d we're in trouble.
edit: not meaning he's bad, just that I hope we're not finished.

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02-28-2012, 10:43 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
if gilbert is supposed to be a cornerstone of our new d we're in trouble.
edit: not meaning he's bad, just that I hope we're not finished.
He's not. He will be a 4/5 guy, like Schultz, except playing Yeo's system better. Nobody is building around Gilbert.

The fact he's paired with Falk should tell you he's not stepping in here to be a top pair guy. 4/5, like he should be.

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02-28-2012, 10:55 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
He's not. He will be a 4/5 guy, like Schultz, except playing Yeo's system better. Nobody is building around Gilbert.

The fact he's paired with Falk should tell you he's not stepping in here to be a top pair guy. 4/5, like he should be.
I was thinking 3/4 but we're really splitting hairs at that point.

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02-28-2012, 12:29 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
if gilbert is supposed to be a cornerstone of our new d we're in trouble.
edit: not meaning he's bad, just that I hope we're not finished.
one word

Brodin

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Old
02-28-2012, 03:31 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by llamapalooza View Post
Forwards playing responsible defense is part of Yeo's system, not the fault of the defensemen. The thing hampering our production is our inability to gain puck possession in the offensive zone. It's not our play in the defensive zone; it's our transition game.
Our lack of offense stems from a weak blue line there (both in the lack of solid shooting, as well as weak puck movement, and a tendency to bobble the puck out of the zone) and the sheer amount of time we spend in the defensive zone. Why do we get stuck in our own end? Because when we finally get control of the puck, we chip it out, move it to the line and dump, or turn it over. You can have the best defensive play in the league from your defensemen, but if they spend 75% of the game in their own end, the other team will score. It doesn't matter how well they play, if they can't get the puck out of their own zone, they will lose.



/no matter how I try to phrase this, it sounds like I'm rebutting you rather than agreeing...strange

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02-28-2012, 03:39 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC2600 View Post
Some very quick looks and math, and I think these are the closest teams to us(only counting highest 6, because I don't know the starting lineups for every team):
Rangers - 11.5
Avs - 11.5
Islanders - 11.3

I wasn't able to find a team spending <10 mil on defense (granted this was a VERY quick look through)
Montreal is in the $11MM range too, assuming Markov is still on IR.

If I did my math right, Chara's actual salary this season is $7,500 more than the 6 defensemen we will ice tonight combined.

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02-28-2012, 03:45 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
one word

Brodin
i'm about the biggest Brodin supporter here (aside from some Swedes probably) but he isn't going to fix this D by himself any more than Johnsson could. He will be the steady foundation that allows an offensive D like Burns really tear it up. If we could find one of those.

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02-28-2012, 03:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
I really don't think he's going to trade anyone but it shows really. There was absolutely no need to move Schultz and even at best maybe in the off-season. Gilbert was not a huge priority for us with Foster here and Brodin coming in.

What we are missing is a guy like Johnsson. We just simply can't find a guy that can make a good outlet pass (not really offense but it helps) but also plays a steady, reliable game on the backend. Which Brodin should provide.
Maybe you haven't seen Gilbert play? That is exactly what he does...good outlet pass..slightly above average defender...still a little raw it seems though

But what is Schultz?? Below average defensive defenseman making 4 million a year with 0 offense. 3 points and a -10 and supposed to be this defensive dynamo..sure he was well liked in the lockeroom but that doesn't all of a sudden make him this primetime D-man...

Schultz wouldn't make the top 4 of a single good NHL team. No chance.

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02-28-2012, 05:00 PM
  #62
DeuceMN
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All I can say is hell no to $8 mill a year to Suter. Geesus let's maintain some perspective.

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02-28-2012, 05:04 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech in Hockey View Post
All I can say is hell no to $8 mill a year to Suter. Geesus let's maintain some perspective.
What's he worth? $8m will be somewhere around 12% of the cap. For a legit, #1 defenseman, I think it's worth it (not that he'll get to FA, but still).


Last edited by Dr Jan Itor: 02-28-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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02-28-2012, 05:05 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Czech in Hockey View Post
All I can say is hell no to $8 mill a year to Suter. Geesus let's maintain some perspective.
I would absolutely throw that kind of money at Suter.

Suter is a type of player we don't have, not on the roster and not in the system. He would improve our blue line immensely, and we have the cap space to do it.

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02-28-2012, 05:15 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DC2600 View Post
I would absolutely throw that kind of money at Suter.

Suter is a type of player we don't have, not on the roster and not in the system. He would improve our blue line immensely, and we have the cap space to do it.
I agree that we need him, but not at that price. I would really like to keep it at $7 for say 5 years.

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02-28-2012, 05:19 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Czech in Hockey View Post
I agree that we need him, but not at that price. I would really like to keep it at $7 for say 5 years.
And you would absolutely not even come close to signing him.

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02-28-2012, 05:21 PM
  #67
Dr Jan Itor
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Originally Posted by Czech in Hockey View Post
I agree that we need him, but not at that price. I would really like to keep it at $7 for say 5 years.
I wouldn't haggle over $1m.

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02-28-2012, 05:28 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Czech in Hockey View Post
I agree that we need him, but not at that price. I would really like to keep it at $7 for say 5 years.
Virtually every team in the NHL is going to be bidding on him. We already have a small chance at signing him, we'll have to be one of, if not the highest bidder.

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02-28-2012, 05:35 PM
  #69
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I have no problem offering Suter an 8-year, $64 million contract (8 million/year per). Our blueline would still be low-cost for several seasons. They are very, very young.

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02-28-2012, 05:40 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Czech in Hockey View Post
I agree that we need him, but not at that price. I would really like to keep it at $7 for say 5 years.
He has been offered 7 x $7MM by Nashville. If he's signing for less than 8 x $8MM, it'll be with Nashy.

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02-28-2012, 05:41 PM
  #71
rynryn
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i would pay Suter $8m per year. absolutely. Better not be one of those 10 year deals though.

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02-28-2012, 05:42 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
I have no problem offering Suter an 8-year, $64 million contract (8 million/year per). Our blueline would still be low-cost for several seasons. They are very, very young.
It'd be something close to 16 million. 8 mil for Suter, 4 for Gilbert. and 4-5 guys making ≤1 mil. That's about 28% of the Current cap for 6 players. On a roster of 23 players 6 players are 26% of the team, so the blue line would be making a proportionate amount of money, just in terms of pure # of players, and not value to team and other hard to quantify things.

So yes if we can get Suter for 8 mil a year sign me up and take my first born child.

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02-28-2012, 05:46 PM
  #73
rynryn
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alright, hopefully Gilbert is better than he looked. Perhaps it was just the ineptitude of the oilers in general that made him look pretty below average defensively to me. Here's hoping.

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02-28-2012, 11:48 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
i would pay Suter $8m per year. absolutely. Better not be one of those 10 year deals though.
Might have too, to lock him up but it could lower his cap hit.

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02-28-2012, 11:51 PM
  #75
rynryn
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i can easily see a scenario where we get 5 great/good years from him then spend the next 5 trying to get someone to take him for veteran presence and leadership. for $5m a year.

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