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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - DaveG

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Old
02-28-2012, 10:51 AM
  #1
overpass
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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - DaveG

DaveG
Rank Player
1 Bobby Orr
2 Doug Harvey
3 Ray Bourque
4 Eddie Shore
5 Denis Potvin
6 Larry Robinson
7 Nicklas Lidstrom
8 Red Kelly
9 Chris Chelios
10 Slava Fetisov
11 Brad Park
12 Dit Clapper
13 Paul Coffey
14 Tim Horton
15 King Clancy
16 Pierre Pilote
17 Al MacInnis
18 Earl Seibert
19 Sprague Cleghorn
20 Scott Stevens
21 Borje Salming
22 Bill Gadsby
23 Serge Savard
24 Valeri Vasiliev
25 Brian Leetch
26 Jan Suchy
27 Mark Howe
28 Rod Langway
29 Chris Pronger
30 Lionel Conacher
31 Guy LaPointe
32 Jack Stewart
33 Bill Quackenbush
34 Babe Pratt
35 Rob Blake
36 Jacques Laperriere
37 J.C. Tremblay
38 Marcel Pronovost
39 Harry Cameron
40 Butch Bouchard
41 Scott Niedermayer
42 Carl Brewer
43 Larry Murphy
44 Tom Johnson
45 Doug Wilson
46 Sylvio Mantha
47 Alexei Kasatonov
48 Moose Johnson
49 Ching Johnson
50 Ebbie Goodfellow
51 Eddie Gerard
52 Harry Howell
53 George Boucher
54 Fern Flaman
55 Lester Patrick
56 Hap Day
57 Art Coulter
58 Alexander Ragulin
59 Frantisek Pospisil
60 Sergei Zubov
61 Zdeno Chara
62 Moose Vasko
63 Red Horner
64 Cy Wentworth
65 Harvey Pulford
66 Hod Stuart
67 Allan Stanley
68 Pat Stapleton
69 Doug Mohns
70 Brad McCrimmon
71 Bill White
72 Jimmy Thomson
73 Adam Foote
74 Leo Boivin
75 Art Ross
76 Si Griffis
77 Herb Gardiner
78 Bob Baun
79 Gus Mortson
80 Jean-Guy Talbot

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
Ken Reardon
Babe Siebert

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Dit Clapper* (12)
Babe Pratt (34)

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Scott Niedermayer (41)

Players unique to this list
None

*tie

Round Rank 1 Rank 2 Rank 3 Rank 4 Rank 5 Rank 6 Rank 7 Rank 8 Rank 9 Rank 10
Vote 1NONE         
Vote 2NONE         
Vote 3Brad ParkPaul CoffeyTim HortonKing ClancyPierre PiloteAl MacInnisSprague CleghornEarl SeibertScott StevensChris Pronger
Vote 4Dit ClapperTim HortonAl MacInnisEarl SeibertScott StevensBorje SalmingValeri VasilievBill GadsbySerge SavardBrian Leetch
Vote 5NONE         
Vote 6Serge SavardMark HoweBill QuackenbushRod LangwayEddie GerardGuy LapointeJC TremblayJacques LaperriereJack StewartLionel Conacher
Vote 7NONE         
Vote 8Jan SuchyJacques LaperriereJ.C. TremblayErnest "Moose" JohnsonIvan "Ching" JohnsonTom JohnsonEmile "Butch" BouchardHod StuartAlexei Kasatonov Zdeno Chara
Vote 9Jan SuchyBabe SeibertZdeno CharaMoose JohnsonHarry CameronButch BouchardRob BlakeLarry MurphyTom JohnsonEbbie Goodfellow
Vote 10Jan SuchyAlbert "Babe" SeibertGeorges "Buck" BoucherCarl BrewerFern FlamanTom JohnsonHarry CameronLarry MurphyLester PatrickKen Reardon
Vote 11Tom JohnsonFern FlamanHarry CameronLester PatrickDoug WilsonKen ReardonHarvey PulfordPat StapletonArt CoulterHarry Howell
Vote 12Frantisek PospisilFern FlamanHarry CameronHarvey PulfordPat StapletonHarry HowellAlexander RagulinBabe PrattSylvio ManthaMike Grant

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02-28-2012, 10:54 AM
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overpass
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Was Babe Siebert was an accidental omission from your Round 1 list? You ranked multipositional star Dit Clapper highly in both rounds, and ranked Siebert highly in Round 2.

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02-28-2012, 11:08 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Dave sure stuck to his guns on Suchy!

Seems to have had a major change of heart on Pratt.

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02-28-2012, 11:09 AM
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Good list but I would like to hear his rationale for ranking Robinson over Lidstrom and Langway ahead of Pronger.

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02-28-2012, 12:58 PM
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Nice to see another high placing of Suchy. I trust that you guys will post other statistics when all of the personal lists are done? Variance among players for example. I figure Suchy might top such a list.

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02-28-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Der Kaiser View Post
Nice to see another high placing of Suchy. I trust that you guys will post other statistics when all of the personal lists are done? Variance among players for example. I figure Suchy might top such a list.
I wasn't planning on it, but it would be great if someone else did. d

We're releasing all the data here and have the original spreadsheets in excel that we can email anyone who wants them.

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03-01-2012, 11:48 AM
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DaveG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Was Babe Siebert was an accidental omission from your Round 1 list? You ranked multipositional star Dit Clapper highly in both rounds, and ranked Siebert highly in Round 2.
yeah, major omission from me. Tends to happen from time to time, like what happened during the top 100 project with Neighbor I think it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Good list but I would like to hear his rationale for ranking Robinson over Lidstrom and Langway ahead of Pronger.
Lidstrom and Robinson were prettymuch even in my books. Actually as was Potvin. I just frankly see very little to separate them. Lidstrom has the edge in longevity, while Robinson and especially Potvin have the edge in physicality. It's one of those situations where you could ask me a week or two from now and get a different answer to which one I think is better.

I've always found Langway to be a bit underrated, even if he's regarded on the one-dimensional side. This was personal preference and I'm no huge fan of Pronger's, but the two are remarkably close right down to their awards voting. I prefer Langway in this regard actually:
Pronger has 4AS nods (1 first, 3 second), Langway has 3AS nods (2 first, 1 second). Overall it's extremely close following that with both having 3 5th place finishes even.
Pronger has the Hart win, but Langway actually has a history of finishing consistently higher in that regard (2, 4, 4). Essentially, Pronger has the win but is a one-time finalist. Langway was a 3 time finalist, and lost out on a Hart to The Great One. That's essentially a wash to me with a possible edge to Langway for longevity there.


Last edited by DaveG: 03-01-2012 at 12:12 PM.
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03-01-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
yeah, major omission from me. Tends to happen from time to time, like what happened during the top 100 project with Neighbor I think it was.



Lidstrom and Robinson were prettymuch even in my books. Actually as was Potvin. I just frankly see very little to separate them. Lidstrom has the edge in longevity, while Robinson and especially Potvin have the edge in physicality. It's one of those situations where you could ask me a week or two from now and get a different answer to which one I think is better.

I've always found Langway to be a bit underrated, even if he's regarded on the one-dimensional side. This was personal preference and I'm no huge fan of Pronger's, but the two are remarkably close right down to their awards voting. I prefer Langway in this regard actually:
Pronger has 4AS nods (1 first, 3 second), Langway has 3AS nods (2 first, 1 second). Overall it's extremely close following that with both having 3 5th place finishes even.
Pronger has the Hart win, but Langway actually has a history of finishing consistently higher in that regard (2, 4, 4). Essentially, Pronger has the win but is a one-time finalist. Langway was a 3 time finalist, and lost out on a Hart to The Great One. That's essentially a wash to me with a possible edge to Langway for longevity there.
One thing that you didn't mention that I think a lot of people put a pretty big value on is Pronger's incredible playoff resume.

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03-01-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
One thing that you didn't mention that I think a lot of people put a pretty big value on is Pronger's incredible playoff resume.
Is it really that incredible if you look at his whole career? I mean, I think he’s a top-3 playoff player since the lockout, maybe #1 (he is a 2006 Markkanen, 2007 suspension and 2010 bad voting away from three smythes IMO). But pre-lockout he was perhaps the most disappointing star player as far as playoffs went.


Last edited by seventieslord: 03-01-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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03-01-2012, 01:03 PM
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Hawkey Town 18
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Is it really that incredible if you look at his whole career? I mean, I think he’s a top-3 playoff player since the lockout, maybe #1 (he is a 2006 Markkanen, 2007 suspension and 2010 bad voting away from three smythes IMO). But pre-lockout he was perhaps the most disappointing star player as far as playoffs went.
Fair enough, guess I should've said incredible playoff peak. I still think it's a department where he has an edge over Langway

EDIT: not saying Langway wasn't good in the playoffs


Last edited by seventieslord: 03-01-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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03-01-2012, 01:37 PM
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I'm not sure how to view Langway's playoffs compared to Pronger's. Langway was pretty much the singular reason that the Caps were a playoff team in the early 1980s, and they ran into the Islanders 4 years in a row. That, plus a couple of key elimination-game losses that weren't laid at his feet, left him without any realistic opportunity for playoff success. He only got to the third round once, other than his rookie season in Montreal.

Pronger has obviously been one of the top playoff performers in his generation, so he has to rank ahead. But he also benefitted tremendously from arriving in Anaheim and Philadelphia just as they were gearing up for Cup runs.

It would be hard to pick two players whose circumstances were more drastically different than those two (well, there's one obvious option but I'm not bringing him up again).

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03-01-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Pronger has obviously been one of the top playoff performers in his generation, so he has to rank ahead. But he also benefitted tremendously from arriving in Anaheim and Philadelphia just as they were gearing up for Cup runs.
It's pretty easy to assume that the only reason they could be considered "gearing up for cup runs" was Pronger himself.

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03-01-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe View Post
It's pretty easy to assume that the only reason they could be considered "gearing up for cup runs" was Pronger himself.
Both teams were in rapid building mode leading up to the season when they acquired Pronger. He was brought in as a "final piece of the puzzle" to push them over the top, which he certainly did achieve.

How many times was Langway brought in as the final piece of the puzzle?

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03-01-2012, 08:17 PM
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Langway never solved the puzzle on his own.

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03-01-2012, 08:37 PM
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tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe View Post
Langway never solved the puzzle on his own.
What is that even supposed to mean? He was supposed to win a Cup on his own?

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03-02-2012, 01:38 AM
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What is that even supposed to mean? He was supposed to win a Cup on his own?
Sorry - posted from my phone in a hurry at work. I scratched my head when I came back to it just now.

What I meant to say was that Langway was never a major piece of a cup winner. Pronger was the biggest piece of one cup winner, and the biggest piece of two runners-up.

But I guess re-reading the thread all of this has been said already.

My main point was that Anaheim and Philadelphia only look like they were "gearing up for the Cup" in hindsight, and that was because Pronger turned them into contending teams. They don't get there without Chris Pronger.

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03-02-2012, 08:36 AM
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tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by YeOldeRyaneClowe View Post
My main point was that Anaheim and Philadelphia only look like they were "gearing up for the Cup" in hindsight, and that was because Pronger turned them into contending teams. They don't get there without Chris Pronger.
I guess I can buy that about Philly, but the Ducks were most definitely primed for a run with Giguere-Niedermayer-Getzlaf-Selanne and fantastic depth at every position.

Not trying to downplay Pronger's playoffs, really. My issue is more with Langway's side of the equation, and his lack of corresponding opportunity.

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