I dont see wang selling and I cant see him moving out of the state when Queens and Brooklyn have shown interest....Also dont know if its an option but mayby he can have a short deal in brooklyn while hes looking to build a new arena in LI or Queens...
All in all I dont know but Times a wasting and the clock is ticking...
The league needs to take the Isles, plus a couple other teams that aren't worth a squirt of piss (Columbus, Florida, Phoenix) and dissolve them. Make the league 26 teams and put out a better product so Sean Bergenheim doesn't get $3m a season.
The league needs to take the Isles, plus a couple other teams that aren't worth a squirt of piss (Columbus, Florida, Phoenix) and dissolve them. Make the league 26 teams and put out a better product so Sean Bergenheim doesn't get $3m a season.
Florida has new owners. They'll be stable. And they have a winning product on the ice plus a great talent pool. You don't just pull the plug on them like that.
Columbus should be dissolved. That team from Day 1 is a wreck. Fans are committed though which is the sad part. Just mismanaged into the ground.
Phoenix can move to Quebec/Hamilton. Bettman is just stubborn. And again, winning product and great talent pool.
1) Wang will be the owner as long as there is a chance of him developing the "Hub" or whatever you want to call it.
1a) Wang wants to make money, just like the rest of us. If he can move the team to Quebec or Seattle and still make money, then he'll still own the team. Maybe he's on the phone with both municipalities as we speak, seeing if either will be willing to go for his Lighthouse project.
2) No. The NIMBYs of Nassau have spoken at least twice and the Isles aren't wanted.
Brooklyn? I highly doubt it. Unless that Russian guy who owns the Nets, whose name I forgot, wants to buy them, then no. They won't be on the Island after 2015.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie Daggers Crime
The league needs to take the Isles, plus a couple other teams that aren't worth a squirt of piss (Columbus, Florida, Phoenix) and dissolve them. Make the league 26 teams and put out a better product so Sean Bergenheim doesn't get $3m a season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Jonsson
Florida has new owners. They'll be stable. And they have a winning product on the ice plus a great talent pool. You don't just pull the plug on them like that.
Columbus should be dissolved. That team from Day 1 is a wreck. Fans are committed though which is the sad part. Just mismanaged into the ground.
Phoenix can move to Quebec/Hamilton. Bettman is just stubborn. And again, winning product and great talent pool.
I'm not trying to derail anything here, but, two teams need to go.
Can't have a league with 29 teams. That's part of the reason the re-alingment didn't go through-not too many options with 30 teams-and the unbalanced conferences.
So...28 teams, 4 conferences of 7 teams each. Top four go to the playoffs.
And, I don't think the talent pool and league can handle 32 teams.
(4 conferences, 8 teams each.)
1) Wang will be the owner as long as there is a chance of him developing the "Hub" or whatever you want to call it.
1a) Wang wants to make money, just like the rest of us. If he can move the team to Quebec or Seattle and still make money, then he'll still own the team. Maybe he's on the phone with both municipalities as we speak, seeing if either will be willing to go for his Lighthouse project.
2) No. The NIMBYs of Nassau have spoken at least twice and the Isles aren't wanted.
Brooklyn? I highly doubt it. Unless that Russian guy who owns the Nets, whose name I forgot, wants to buy them, then no. They won't be on the Island after 2015.
I'm not trying to derail anything here, but, two teams need to go.
Can't have a league with 29 teams. That's part of the reason the re-alingment didn't go through-not too many options with 30 teams-and the unbalanced conferences.
So...28 teams, 4 conferences of 7 teams each. Top four go to the playoffs.
And, I don't think the talent pool and league can handle 32 teams.
(4 conferences, 8 teams each.)
I hate to defend Wang, since I think he's quite possibly the worst owner in professional sports, but the one positive about him is I don't think he'd sell the team to out-of-state interests unless he absolutely had to. The man has a huge ego and doesn't want his legacy to be the guy who gave away Long Island's only professional franchise. From what I've read, there's absolutely zero chance he'd continue being the owner if the Isles moved.
Florida has new owners. They'll be stable. And they have a winning product on the ice plus a great talent pool. You don't just pull the plug on them like that.
Florida have been a waste of space for 10+ years now. Plus, you don't need 2 hockey teams... in Florida. So, choose one. Florida, you lose. Done. 26 teams, and a better league.
I think Wang sells within the next 2 years as he gets frustrated without getting his way. I'm hoping one of the guys who buys the team is Pat Lafontaine. He loves hockey, and loves Long Island. I don't think Bettman would ever let the Islanders move out of the state of NY. He would move in and stop any move.
I think Wang sells within the next 2 years as he gets frustrated without getting his way. I'm hoping one of the guys who buys the team is Pat Lafontaine. He loves hockey, and loves Long Island. I don't think Bettman would ever let the Islanders move out of the state of NY. He would move in and stop any move.
He can only do so much to prevent a move. If it plays out like it did in Atlanta where there was no local buyer willing to purchase the team and keep it in the market, there's not really that much he or the league can do about it.
I think Wang sells within the next 2 years as he gets frustrated without getting his way. I'm hoping one of the guys who buys the team is Pat Lafontaine. He loves hockey, and loves Long Island. I don't think Bettman would ever let the Islanders move out of the state of NY. He would move in and stop any move.
Bettman has done NOTHING to make me think he will stop a move. In fact, he has done the exact opposite. While he says the Islanders belong here, he ALWAYS follows it up with "but, this team cannot play on Long Island past 2015 in that building. It can't and won't happen. While I would love them to stay on Long Island, if nothing gets done, other options will be explored". Something along those lines.
Those options might be Queens or Brooklyn. But if those don't work out, Bettman isn't going to stop a group in Quebec with a new building and 15k+ season tickets sold just waiting for a team. What would be best for the league at that point would be the Isles moving north of the boarder.
The NHL will not abide contraction. Contraction is an admission of defeat and that will not happen after these franchises have paid a fat fee to be in the exclusive club.
The NHL does not like relocation and will avoid it at all costs, only acccept it as a last option after bankruptcy happens first. They especially will be against the loss of a New York market team. The Board of Governors feel that relocation or contraction harm their franchise and make it appear less stable, even if it is so.
Wang views the Islanders as a white elephant. It is a large investment and nothing more. An investment that went bad and he is not willing to cut his losses and run. He wants to try to recoup most of his losses on the acquistion and operations in one swoop, only he is painted into a corner and is not willing to accept the pain.
So, Wang has chosen teh middle ground......keep taking the cable deal money by staying in New York which is positive cash flow offsetting hockey operations losses, and limit the operating expense of running the franchise mostly by payrol reduction to the lowest possible level using all the gimmicks allowed to him.
In this manner he holds on with annual losses of about $5MM while hoping some savior comes along and ofers to buy the Islanders with an overpayment of $250MM.
So we stay in New York (likely Brooklyn or Queens) as Wang has no appetite for investing his own money in an arena. And he will own it until some time as he is close to the end of his life and wants to plan his estate distribution to his heirs.
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is an viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
Forgive me for not directly answering the op's questions, but first and foremost the Isles need to become somewhat relevant; i.e. making the playoffs, winning a round for the first time since 1993...
Now, that sounds like a misnomer with the current owner, but the clock is ticking, and regardless of what folks want to think it has directly affected their inability to attract quality 24-28 year old talent here and end up settling for 38-39 year old guys who have seen their best days...
Wang needs to hire experienced hockey people with a proven track record of success at every level and let them do their jobs... I think he cares but his track record proves that he's too hands-on and he doesn't know how to step aside...
In a market where hockey is more than an after thought - unless it's the Rangers doing something and even they play 6th wheel to the other pro franchises - it would be very helpful if the few local sports talking heads, radio talk show blowhards and columnists would have something else to say besides the many negatives...
Some may not like what I'm saying, but I believe it's true and will go a long way in keeping the franchise here... There's clearly a strong fan base here, but they've been beaten down by ineptitude in management and more often than not on the ice, and it's a damn shame...
As bad as Phoenix is attendance wise in that market, they've got a pretty damn good team, and they have a solid coaching staff led by Dave Tippett... When was the last time the Isles had a coach of Tippett's level???
The needs are immense for this team even with the promise of so many players in the system because of previous draft picks, at some point they're going to have to prove something, and the clock is ticking...
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is an viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
- Charles Wang
Unfortunately, you are 100% correct. Under the current workings of the NHL financial model, a suburban team is simply not viable.
If Wang built an arena in Nassau, filled it up with 175-200 events per year, pocketed a large percentage of that revenue and then infused a large chunk of it into the team... then it could work. But I think we can all agree that is nothing more than a pipe dream.
Forgive me for not directly answering the op's questions, but first and foremost the Isles need to become somewhat relevant; i.e. making the playoffs, winning a round for the first time since 1993...
Now, that sounds like a misnomer with the current owner, but the clock is ticking, and regardless of what folks want to think it has directly affected their inability to attract quality 24-28 year old talent here and end up settling for 38-39 year old guys who have seen their best days...
Wang needs to hire experienced hockey people with a proven track record of success at every level and let them do their jobs... I think he cares but his track record proves that he's too hands-on and he doesn't know how to step aside...
In a market where hockey is more than an after thought - unless it's the Rangers doing something and even they play 6th wheel to the other pro franchises - it would be very helpful if the few local sports talking heads, radio talk show blowhards and columnists would have something else to say besides the many negatives...
Some may not like what I'm saying, but I believe it's true and will go a long way in keeping the franchise here... There's clearly a strong fan base here, but they've been beaten down by ineptitude in management and more often than not on the ice, and it's a damn shame...
As bad as Phoenix is attendance wise in that market, they've got a pretty damn good team, and they have a solid coaching staff led by Dave Tippett... When was the last time the Isles had a coach of Tippett's level???
The needs are immense for this team even with the promise of so many players in the system because of previous draft picks, at some point they're going to have to prove something, and the clock is ticking...
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is an viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
- Charles Wang
There are a lot of good points here, but Queens is a more natural destination with a lot more Islander fans already there.
The economic model of the new NHL is indeed not suited to a small market team like the Isles, whose problems are magified by hockey being a 4th rate sport in the area. But it is a big pie and there is enough room to survive and prosper if they were providing entertainment that caught fans attention......as in winning.
Wang has one built in benefit that other "small market" teams do not, the $30MM cable deal that extends to 2030 or 2040 if I am correct. That rights a lot of wrongs in cash generation. Think of it, that almost pays our entire hockey payroll, or at least 75%. That is a massive amount of revenue that Wang doesnt even let flow through the NYI P&L.
If he got a favorable lease in Queens in a building he operated for all non-hockey events, iced a winning team, and kept the cable revenue, he should run better than break-even with playoffs being surplus. It can be done.
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is an viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is an viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
- Charles Wang
This post should be a sticky. I didn't see your post earlier, but I posted a similar (short) comment about the suburban thing being dead in the Brooklyn thread. Aha moment, gang.
The posts on this site arguing details about the team's name or the size of the Brooklyn arena or various possible sites on LI, etc., all come across like typewriter manufacturers trying to decide what color to make their product to better compete with computers. The point is, they can't compete with computers. I am officially in the Brooklyn/Queens or bust group. And since Queens currently consists of vacant land and junkyards, it's probably really Brooklyn or bust.
Unfortunately, you are 100% correct. Under the current workings of the NHL financial model, a suburban team is simply not viable.
If Wang built an arena in Nassau, filled it up with 175-200 events per year, pocketed a large percentage of that revenue and then infused a large chunk of it into the team... then it could work. But I think we can all agree that is nothing more than a pipe dream.
Yup, that will never happen nor should it ever be EXPECTED to.
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is an viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
- Charles Wang
Doesn't the ~$30M annual cable deal offset the suburban angle? Do you need to have the same corporate traffic that a more urban centre gives you if you're raking in that cable money?
If the team starts to win, that will put ***** in seats and if they have a (free) shiny new building that will also help and provide extra revenue streams.
If they were winning, had a 18-20k building that was 80% capacity every night and had the cable deal, shouldn't that be enough to at least be an above average revenue NHL team?
I don't get the math on how going to Quebec, with a much worse corporate environment than LI and with a significantly less lucrative cable deal ends up making more revenue even if they sell out a brand new free arena.
Doesn't the ~$30M annual cable deal offset the suburban angle? Do you need to have the same corporate traffic that a more urban centre gives you if you're raking in that cable money?
If the team starts to win, that will put ***** in seats and if they have a (free) shiny new building that will also help and provide extra revenue streams.
If they were winning, had a 18-20k building that was 80% capacity every night and had the cable deal, shouldn't that be enough to at least be an above average revenue NHL team?
I don't get the math on how going to Quebec, with a much worse corporate environment than LI and with a significantly less lucrative cable deal ends up making more revenue even if they sell out a brand new free arena.
Cable deal plus all arena revenue for 16,234 seats for 41 games plus playoffs plus all events and concessions and parking
or
41 games plus playoffs in Quebec as a tenant and a portion of ad and luxury box revenue as a tenant
or
41 games plus playoffs plus cable revenue in Brooklyn with 14,000 seats and a portion of advertising revenue and a portion of luxury box revenue as a tenant.
How's everyone's math? Any MIT grads?
Unless an arena owner buys the team, Wang makes the most money staying put. Period. EVEN IF IT'S NOT URBAN.
