FWIW, when I think of Brooklyn I don't see Wang as the owner. I've said this before, but if Bettman and the league decide they want the Isles in Brooklyn I'm sure there are things they can do to nudge the process in that direction, with or without Wang as owner.
The immediate future is a lot of ??????. By years end according to Mangano we'll see what Wang proposes for the Coliseum site or the other developers propose.
Doesn't the ~$30M annual cable deal offset the suburban angle? Do you need to have the same corporate traffic that a more urban centre gives you if you're raking in that cable money?
If the team starts to win, that will put ***** in seats and if they have a (free) shiny new building that will also help and provide extra revenue streams.
If they were winning, had a 18-20k building that was 80% capacity every night and had the cable deal, shouldn't that be enough to at least be an above average revenue NHL team?.
No it does not. They have the cable deal now and are the lowest revenue team and have been for years because of suburban small market. The cost of business rises every year. The cap floor will only go up. The benefits of corporate sponsorship, ad revenue, luxury box payments, media spot point buying in an urban area much more than offsets the cable money. Plus the cable deal will end or probably get renewed at a lower rate. A new arena for NYI basically just provides more luxury boxes which won't get comparable value so not much would change.
Again, the Pirates have a shiny new arena with bells and whistles and can't compete because of the small market they play in and lack of revenue. Why do you assume the building will be free? Again, you can't win without revenue.
If you think NYI will EVER get 80% capacity every night on a 18k-20k arena based on their historical attendance figures I have a bridge to sell you near Barclay's arena.
No it does not. They have the cable deal now and are the lowest revenue team and have been for years because of suburban small market. The cost of business rises every year. The cap floor will only go up. The benefits of corporate sponsorship, ad revenue, luxury box payments, media spot point buying in an urban area much more than offsets the cable money. Plus the cable deal will end or probably get renewed at a lower rate. A new arena for NYI basically just provides more luxury boxes which won't get comparable value so not much would change.
Again, the Pirates have a shiny new arena with bells and whistles and can't compete because of the small market they play in and lack of revenue. Why do you assume the building will be free? Again, you can't win without revenue.
If you think NYI will EVER get 80% capacity every night on a 18k-20k arena based on their historical attendance figures I have a bridge to sell you near Barclay's arena.
First: Attendance
I'd say don't confuse the last ~20 years of crappy teams not filling the building with the wonders of a winning team.
The Isles had higher avg. attendance than the Pens in 02-03 and 03-04. What was different? Isles were "winning", Pens sucked. Then they got Cros and Gino and started winning. Then they got a new building. Now they sell out at 102% of their building's capacity.
You're assumption is they can't draw an average of ~16k fans in a nice new building even if they're competitive and winning, which is basically only 1k more than the "winning" team of 02-03?
Second: Corp $$s / Suburbs
Again, for example, there is a lot more corporate money on LI than either Winterpeg or Quebec (the two shiny relo examples).
What both those places have is crazy owners and a high Canadian dollar. Either of those change, and those markets disappear again. I imagine LI has a lot more corporate and sponsorship options than many of the small market teams. Clearly not as many as large markets.
Also, many are speculating about a new building in Markham, ON to lure a team to. Well, Markham is pretty much the suburbs of Toronto, so clearly they believe a suburb model can work.
Third: Cable deal
The deal expires in 2030, that's 18 years. By any business planning measure, that is "long-term", so it's not going anywhere. I suspect no one around here is personally budgeting for 2031 yet...
The equation is simple:
free new building + winning team + cable deal + avg. corp environment = NHL works on Long Island
And better than many alternative markets. This doesn't work if you need to pay for the building yourself. It doesn't work if you draw flies because you suck.
First: Attendance
I'd say don't confuse the last ~20 years of crappy teams not filling the building with the wonders of a winning team.
The Isles had higher avg. attendance than the Pens in 02-03 and 03-04. What was different? Isles were "winning", Pens sucked. Then they got Cros and Gino and started winning. Then they got a new building. Now they sell out at 102% of their building's capacity.
You're assumption is they can't draw an average of ~16k fans in a nice new building even if they're competitive and winning, which is basically only 1k more than the "winning" team of 02-03?
Second: Corp $$s / Suburbs
Again, for example, there is a lot more corporate money on LI than either Winterpeg or Quebec (the two shiny relo examples).
What both those places have is crazy owners and a high Canadian dollar. Either of those change, and those markets disappear again. I imagine LI has a lot more corporate and sponsorship options than many of the small market teams. Clearly not as many as large markets.
Also, many are speculating about a new building in Markham, ON to lure a team to. Well, Markham is pretty much the suburbs of Toronto, so clearly they believe a suburb model can work.
Third: Cable deal
The deal expires in 2030, that's 18 years. By any business planning measure, that is "long-term", so it's not going anywhere. I suspect no one around here is personally budgeting for 2031 yet...
The equation is simple:
free new building + winning team + cable deal + avg. corp environment = NHL works on Long Island
And better than many alternative markets. This doesn't work if you need to pay for the building yourself. It doesn't work if you draw flies because you suck.
It's not the market.
Check this link for NYI historical attendance. It isn't pretty.
You're assuming LI gets an arena. Free nonetheless. At present they have NONE that is viable post 2015. That's the main point. Winnipeg has one and Quebec might soon.
03/04 was a result of Wang 1 timing a decent payroll not based on revenue but based on the hope he'd get his land deal. THAT'S why they won. He spent his money. They won't win without revenue. NYI couldn't even afford to pay Crosby or Gino. It also had a lot to do with lower tix prices.
You're wrongly doing what many do - just looking to keep NYI here being average or less than average revenue wise. To win a cup and compete with Detroit, Philly, Pitt, NYR, NJD, BOS etc. you need a high payroll not an average to low one. That high payroll can't be obtained in a small market such as LI.
Plus NO team wins all the time - what happens during down times?
So in reality here is the current equation :
No new building + losing team + cable deal + below avg. corp environment = NHL doesn't work on Long Island
You're assuming LI gets an arena. Free nonetheless. At present they have NONE that is viable post 2015. That's the main point. Winnipeg has one and Quebec might soon.
03/04 was a result of Wang 1 timing a decent payroll not based on revenue but based on the hope he'd get his land deal. THAT'S why they won. He spent his money. They won't win without revenue. NYI couldn't even afford to pay Crosby or Gino. It also had a lot to do with lower tix prices.
You're wrongly doing what many do - just looking to keep NYI here being average or less than average revenue wise. To win a cup and compete with Detroit, Philly, Pitt, NYR, NJD, BOS etc. you need a high payroll not an average to low one. That high payroll can't be obtained in a small market such as LI.
Plus NO team wins all the time - what happens during down times?
So in reality here is the current equation :
No new building + losing team + cable deal + below avg. corp environment = NHL doesn't work on Long Island
It's the location.
You're confusing the owner and current situation with the potential of the market.
Clearly it depends on a building, as I said. But so did Pittsburgh. So have a lot of places.
Clearly the team needs to win to draw well. But it's the same in every market except Toronto (where they could lose for a million years and still sell out).
The building is crucial. It's why they left Quebec. It's why they left Winterpeg. It's why they almost left Pittsburgh.
There is no question a new building and a winning team with that cable deal create a perfectly viable opportunity, but we'll just have to agree to disagree until the future transpires.
You're confusing the owner and current situation with the potential of the market.
Clearly it depends on a building, as I said. But so did Pittsburgh. So have a lot of places.
Clearly the team needs to win to draw well. But it's the same in every market except Toronto (where they could lose for a million years and still sell out).
The building is crucial. It's why they left Quebec. It's why they left Winterpeg. It's why they almost left Pittsburgh.
There is no question a new building and a winning team with that cable deal create a perfectly viable opportunity, but we'll just have to agree to disagree until the future transpires.
Not at all. Wang hasn't been the only owner who can't make it work on LI. Many before him. You're misreading the location and market. Wang himself said "We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do". What more do you need to hear? That doesn't change with a new building. See KC Royals/Pirates/Predators.
Nobody will ever convince me otherwise that a team won't win without revenue. They won't have consistently good attendance on LI without the revenue to win.
They left Quebec because of the lack of corporate support. Winnipeg is back.
Plenty of teams don't win with new buildings if they don't include the revenue needed. Again, new arena on LI basically just provides more luxury boxes which won't get comparable value so not much would change. The cable deal is just gravy and something that other teams make up for in naming rights, better media rights, better ad revenue and better corp support than LI can ever dream of. If it was that simple, don't you think it would've shown more results than it has as NYI has the lowest revenue for years etc.? Yup, we disagree on alot so let's see what the future brings.
The prior owners.....Pickett went cheap, spent a ton then sold, Gang of Four spent and then went cheap, Spano doesn't count, Milstein went cheap, Wang spent then went cheap....b-b-b-b-buuttttttt.....
Wang was the first one to get any real revenue. Now the team makes money if it sells tickets. But Wang won't spend on talented people to run the club. So it's the area, not the fact that we've sucked since 1994.
The revenue is there if the team is run well. 16,243 seats, playoff revenue, cable, concessions, parking, advertising (for whoever wants to use Mark Eaton and Jay Pandolfo to sell their friggen product).
Can the building be improved? OF COURSE. But the bare facts are NO ONE WANTS TO SPEND TO SEE GARBAGE.
Now......if you have a low rent team in the middle of Islander Country where the majority of fans are, they don't go.
Now put the same team in an area with fewer Islander fans by far, with fewer seats (1,266 * 41 = 51,906 seats per year if you're keeping track) and far less revenue per ticket getting to the owner (no parking, concessions and advertising revenue for the arena and likely a pittance of skybox revenue (if Brooklyn has 5X the luxury boxes and gives Wang 20% of the take, Wang makes???? Not a helluva lot more.) so....
Which building makes Wang more money overall?
Tenant Wang in Brooklyn or arena operator in Nassau?
And can you or anyone guarantee Nassau, doing great in the 1980's and falling in the 2000's, won't rebound?
I guess only Queens and Brooklyn can rebound.
But what if....Nassau rebounds in ten years? Would it pay to stay in the arena with a greater by far share of profit sharing (operator vs. tenant) than it would to go and resume the SMG days operations (Ratner takes a huge chunk of the revenue AS HE SHOULD) but with far, far fewer seats?
And without the "revenue to win" being in Brooklyn (51,906 fewer seats to sell per year and no other revenue other than tickets and a share of luxury box revenues and potentially a share of AD REVENUE the arena gets), will Wang be able to build a team or even survive?
Brooklyn is a last resort before moving. The money is in Nassau, then Queens, then elsewhere (unless Ratner buys the team and can float a small market revenue team in Brooklyn in Ranger territory).
if the isles do end up moving from LI, why not rebrand the devils as the new york devils? promote the team to a bigger audience. the devils could certainly use it, and the isles leaving could give the devils a chance to take more advantage of the new york metro. or would you guys not give a **** about the devils?
The league needs to take the Isles, plus a couple other teams that aren't worth a squirt of piss (Columbus, Florida, Phoenix) and dissolve them. Make the league 26 teams and put out a better product so Sean Bergenheim doesn't get $3m a season.
Florida actually turns a profit. They would not be moved.
Florida actually turns a profit. They would not be moved.
I never advocated moving anyone.
I don't care if they turn a profit or not. Setting aside the fact that they've been very bad for a very long time, the team is simply redundant. I believe the league would put out a better product with fewer teams. That's all.
I don't care if they turn a profit or not. Setting aside the fact that they've been very bad for a very long time, the team is simply redundant. I believe the league would put out a better product with fewer teams. That's all.
exactly. i said the same thing on an mlb thread and people are getting all butthurt over it. more teams doesn't make a better league
The prior owners.....Pickett went cheap, spent a ton then sold, Gang of Four spent and then went cheap, Spano doesn't count, Milstein went cheap, Wang spent then went cheap....b-b-b-b-buuttttttt.....
Wang was the first one to get any real revenue. Now the team makes money if it sells tickets. But Wang won't spend on talented people to run the club. So it's the area, not the fact that we've sucked since 1994.
The revenue is there if the team is run well. 16,243 seats, playoff revenue, cable, concessions, parking, advertising (for whoever wants to use Mark Eaton and Jay Pandolfo to sell their friggen product).
Can the building be improved? OF COURSE. But the bare facts are NO ONE WANTS TO SPEND TO SEE GARBAGE.
Now......if you have a low rent team in the middle of Islander Country where the majority of fans are, they don't go.
Now put the same team in an area with fewer Islander fans by far, with fewer seats (1,266 * 41 = 51,906 seats per year if you're keeping track) and far less revenue per ticket getting to the owner (no parking, concessions and advertising revenue for the arena and likely a pittance of skybox revenue (if Brooklyn has 5X the luxury boxes and gives Wang 20% of the take, Wang makes???? Not a helluva lot more.) so....
Which building makes Wang more money overall?
Tenant Wang in Brooklyn or arena operator in Nassau?
And can you or anyone guarantee Nassau, doing great in the 1980's and falling in the 2000's, won't rebound?
I guess only Queens and Brooklyn can rebound.
But what if....Nassau rebounds in ten years? Would it pay to stay in the arena with a greater by far share of profit sharing (operator vs. tenant) than it would to go and resume the SMG days operations (Ratner takes a huge chunk of the revenue AS HE SHOULD) but with far, far fewer seats?
And without the "revenue to win" being in Brooklyn (51,906 fewer seats to sell per year and no other revenue other than tickets and a share of luxury box revenues and potentially a share of AD REVENUE the arena gets), will Wang be able to build a team or even survive?
Brooklyn is a last resort before moving. The money is in Nassau, then Queens, then elsewhere (unless Ratner buys the team and can float a small market revenue team in Brooklyn in Ranger territory).
yet another cogent response. An elixir of intellect and unfathomable retort with substance and vigor.
I salute you for another Nassore sux response with Henry Clayesque care in debunking and weighing merit.
I salute you.
Jesus. Just pay Mineola the parking fine and get over the hate, chief.
(which building makes Wang more money??????wanna answer that this century with igures, chief? TENANT OR OPERATOR? $16K or 14.5K? 41 nights or 365 to work with?)
yet another cogent response. An elixir of intellect and unfathomable retort with substance and vigor.
I salute you for another Nassore sux response with Henry Clayesque care in debunking and weighing merit.
I salute you.
Jesus. Just pay Mineola the parking fine and get over the hate, chief.
(which building makes Wang more money??????wanna answer that this century with igures, chief? TENANT OR OPERATOR? $16K or 14.5K? 41 nights or 365 to work with?)
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is a viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
- Charles Wang
WAH WAH WAH Pretty much kills anything you ever had to say. Which wasn't worth squat anyway.
The future of this franchise IS NOT on LI. They've twice said NO and can't support a franchise successfully. At best, they'd only do the minimum in renovations to just keep the team without enough revenue for it to thrive.
A renovated arena only on LI solves NOTHING. NYI are the KC Royals/Pitt Pirates of hockey. They'd still suck with a renovated/new arena only because they're small market. The money just isn't there and the revenue streams wouldn't be enough to matter due to lack of corporate support and below value returns on luxury boxes etc. The suburban model DOES NOT work. (Look at the teams that had to leave the suburbs)
At best, all they could ever hope to be is the Nashville Predators who can win a playoff round maybe 2 with a small payroll but never actually be contenders to win the Cup and 4 playoff rounds.
Those in denial need to stop kidding themselves to save face over silly pride because they're from LI. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked for 20 years since the NHL became big business and free agency. The dynasty happened before the NHL was big business with reasonable salaries where revenue didn't matter as much. You can't win without revenue. Non NYI revenue that Wang gets now from NVMC won't support NYI as it has it's own expenses. The current lease which still loses Wang money isn't guaranteed post 2015. Not that there is a viable arena anyway.
The ONLY hope at present is Brooklyn or out of state. Take your pick.
All aboard!!!
"We're a small market team and can't spend like other teams do"
- Charles Wang
WAH WAH WAH Pretty much kills anything you ever had to say. Which wasn't worth squat anyway.
Priceless!
OMFG.
OK, so......41 nights of very partial revenue cover team expenses but all nights and days of events do not cover team expenses and arena cleaning? (Nassau still has to pay the maintenance if you *cough* missed that - they are da landlooooorrrdzzzzzzzzz)
Your math sucks. More money is worse because the Italian food is better where there is less money. Got it.
OK, so......41 nights of very partial revenue cover team expenses but all nights and days of events do not cover team expenses and arena cleaning? (Nassau still has to pay the maintenance if you *cough* missed that - they are da landlooooorrrdzzzzzzzzz)
Your math sucks. More money is worse because the Italian food is better where there is less money. Got it.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Only you would expect Wang to spend non NYI revenue on NYI. Priceless. No wonder nassau is bankrupt.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Only you would expect Wang to spend non NYI revenue on NYI. Priceless. No wonder nassau is bankrupt.
16,234 seats available to Islander fans where the concentration is greatest plus parking and concessions just at Islander games (not counting other events)
or
14,500 seats with ticket revenue and whatever Ratner agrees to concede to Wang while he's trying to make his investment back IN RANGER COUNTRY.
Wang doesn't want to leave NY. You have to be able to see that. Just look at the referendum plan. That plan wasn't for the Lighthouse project and yet it still locked the Islanders and Wang into a THIRTY YEAR LEASE which Wang agreed to. Does that sound like something a person would do if they wanted to leave town?
Nassau Coliseum sucks. The building sucks, the seats suck, the parking sucks, the traffic getting to and from sucks, etc etc etc. But thats what it is. And Hempstead doesn't seem to want to work with Wang at all. First he proposed the HUB, on his dime and they said no. Then the referendum vote and the voters said no. The guy has been butting heads with Nassau for a long time now. He could have clearly said "screw you" and made a deal elsewhere. Any current stalling going on is more than likely caused by this group that lobbied hard against the referendum (can't recall the name). For them its a land grab. And while I don't live in Nassau County, I can't see any benefit to the coliseum being torn down for another strip mall or some apartments. I think a bad situation in Nassau would just turn worse if the Islanders did leave and the coliseum was no more.
I don't see Wang as a guy who is hanging on 1 minute to midnight to either stay or go. And I just don't see him selling. My guess.... and thats all ANY OF US can do is GUESS... is that he, for whatever reason is still trying to work something out for the property. And with this whole "where are we going" situation, does anyone really see Wang dropping more money to rebuild the team right now? When there very existence is up in the air? That's as smart as buying new rims and a stereo system for your car, when you know the things about to be repo'ed.
If what people say is true, and Wang has such an "I won't lose" ego, then what benefit does selling the team get him? He's already at $190 million loss just from buying the team. Never mind however much money he's sunk into it on his own dime. All those renovations for the players was his money. Not the towns. Even though it was SUPPOSED to be the towns. I've read he might be at a $200+ million loss on top of the team cost already. If that is in fact true, then he would have to sell the team for 3 or 4 times its worth to recoup his losses. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would just walk away.
In my mind, if the Islanders do end up leaving, its Nassau's fault. Perhaps they will go to Brooklyn. Perhaps they won't. Who knows? No one here does. We're all just guessing and speculating. If what was said at the last town meeting is true, then something will have to be decided by the end of this year. Only then will we have a better understanding. Anything before that, and we're all just driving ourselves nuts wondering and worrying.
I think Wang sells within the next 2 years as he gets frustrated without getting his way. I'm hoping one of the guys who buys the team is Pat Lafontaine. He loves hockey, and loves Long Island. I don't think Bettman would ever let the Islanders move out of the state of NY. He would move in and stop any move.
Wang has been the owner for about 11 yrs.
He's doing what Mario did with the pols in Pittsburgh ,when the Pens had an awful arena situation: threatening to move because of the lease/arena ,but making no real move until the 11th hour ,hoping local pols cave.
I don't see why Wang would stick things out until the last 1-2 yrs of the lease and then sell.I'm sure he's had plenty of frustration during the last decade.
I could see Wang still owning the team beyond 2015 and the isles still playing on LI after that date.
The out of town press(especially the Canadian press) ,would have everyone believe Wang hates owning the Isles.Untrue.
A few credible sources in the press like Botta and Hahn, have written that he likes owning the team.
Moulson and Tavares have said how involved with the players both Snow and Wang are.
Wang was promised a new arena 11 yrs ago by local pols.He's lost milllions on the current lease/arena.
Wang was discussing the arena situation in an interview and expressed frutration with the lack of movement on a new arena.That's when he made the comment that he would not have bought the team if he knew then ,what he knows now.Hewanted a mulligan ,a do over.Imo Wang would have insisted the County put something in writing ,instead of taking County leaders at their word about a new arena.
I guess it's a better headline to write Wang hates owning the team and would not buy them again if given a choice.
The local press says Wang has brushed aside potential local buyers Repole and Peltz.I don't think Wang wants to sell and will wait until 2015 ,waiting to see if the local pols cave like Pittsburgh pols did.
I could see Wang still owning the team beyond 2015 and the isles still playing on LI after that date.
The out of town press(especially the Canadian press) ,would have everyone believe Wang hates owning the Isles.Untrue.
A few credible sources in the press like Botta and Hahn, have written that he likes owning the team.
Moulson and Tavares have said how involved with the players both Snow and Wang are.
Wang was promised a new arena 11 yrs ago by local pols.He's lost milllions on the current lease/arena.
Wang was discussing the arena situation in an interview and expressed frutration with the lack of movement on a new arena.That's when he made the comment that he would not have bought the team if he knew then ,what he knows now.Hewanted a mulligan ,a do over.Imo Wang would have insisted the County put something in writing ,instead of taking County leaders at their word about a new arena.
I guess it's a better headline to write Wang hates owning the team and would not buy them again if given a choice.
The local press says Wang has brushed aside potential local buyers Repole and Peltz.I don't think Wang wants to sell and will wait until 2015 ,waiting to see if the local pols cave like Pittsburgh pols did.
Except he said that last year. Not word for word, but he did say it was a mistake to buy the team and wouldn't do it again. Couple that with the budget, the deadline, and no real plan B and what's that sound like to you? People aren't choosing to look at the glass half empty. The glass is 90% empty. That's empty.
