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Which prominent leafs prospect won't make it?

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Old
11-05-2004, 04:46 PM
  #26
Mess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gonsalves
Ah my friend. Not at all. I appreciate criticism. I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood the "someone like you" comment. So let us get into this then.

I will grant you that Colin White cracked a lineup that had a couple of holes to be sure. However, the defense of the Devils had been their bread and butter for quite some time and I imagine there would be several people on the NJ board that would argue as much. For the sake of this arguement though, I will concede that White played more then 200 games in the AHL before making it to the Devils. What you seem to be missing however is his PERFORMANCE while in the AHL. If you took the time to compare their respective AHL careers, you would see that White cracked the lineup due to said performance. Further, he consistently put forth an effort that earned him the role, less so with Harrison.

But, even if you remove the performance of the respective players and you simply compare the teams they had to crack, I'm afraid that I would have to wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of the Leaf defense as being as good as you seem to think it was. Even if you put that aside though, there were a number of injuries and opportunities for Harrison to get a call, but didn't. And if the play of Belak and Jackman is your evidence of why he did not, I'm sorry but you must be reffering to different players. They were weak then and they are weak now, well except for Jackman, for whatever reason.

Finally, the Leafs on this board have had some excellent, dedicated people writing for it. Of that there can be no doubt. To say you feel spoiled due to these writers, as now you must contend with myself, speaks loud and clear as to your views of my writing. Which is just fine. I knew I would not be able to please everyone when I came aboard, and perhaps your views of me will change. Perhaps not. I will continue to cover the prospects the best I can as well as provide my own insight as well.

Incidentally, I was not alone in my assessment of Harrison but you can take that or leave it.
Jay Harrison is Jay Harrison and Colin White is Colin White .... Everybody is different ..

If you decided to compare the two and then are disappointed that it does not turn out so .. Who really is to blame here ???

Just because many other posters made the same claim .. does not make it more or less accurate either just that you have support in your opinion..

Even if people compare their styles as being similar that still does not mean that one player could take 200 games and another 500 in the AHL to make the NHL .. for example it took Nathan Dempsey 8 years in the AHL to finally make and be a contributing part of the NHL and he had to leave the Leafs Organization to do it as well .. So every case is different and every situation not only depends on the player sometimes but his surroundings as well ..

Some organization like Colorado .. open holes in the NHL roster for players each year so prospects can be given a chance .. other teams believe in long AHL apprenticeships .. No wrong or right answer in prospect development .. and it all comes down often to .......

Right place and the Right time ...


Last edited by Mess: 11-05-2004 at 05:37 PM.
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Old
11-05-2004, 05:08 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
Jay Harrison is Jay Harrison and Colin White is Colin White .... Everybody is different ..

If you decided to compare the two and then are disappointed that it does not turn out so .. Who really is to blame here ???

Just because many other posters made the same claim .. does not make it more or less accurate either just that you have support in your opinion..

Even if people compare their styles as being similar that still does not mean that one player could take 200 games and another 500 in the AHL to make the NHL .. for example it took Nathan Dempsey 8 years in the AHL to finally make and be a contributing part of the NHL and he had to leave the Leafs Organization to do it as well .. So ever case is different and ever situation not only depends on the player sometimes but his surroundings as well ..

Some organization like Colorado .. open holes in the NHL roster for players each year so prospects can be given a chance .. other teams believe in long AHL apprenticeships .. No wrong or right answer in prospect development .. and it all comes down often to .......

Right place and the Right time ...

totally agree with you there..

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11-05-2004, 05:09 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gonsalves
Ah my friend. Not at all. I appreciate criticism. I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood the "someone like you" comment. So let us get into this then.

I will grant you that Colin White cracked a lineup that had a couple of holes to be sure. However, the defense of the Devils had been their bread and butter for quite some time and I imagine there would be several people on the NJ board that would argue as much. For the sake of this arguement though, I will concede that White played more then 200 games in the AHL before making it to the Devils. What you seem to be missing however is his PERFORMANCE while in the AHL. If you took the time to compare their respective AHL careers, you would see that White cracked the lineup due to said performance. Further, he consistently put forth an effort that earned him the role, less so with Harrison.
I think a writer on this topic (prospects, development, etc...) needs to have a little patience and be a realist. So far, Harrison has played 2 full seasons at the AHL level and recently turned 22 years of age (November 3rd). I can't seem to understand at what point over the last couple years we as the Toronto Maple Leafs fan base and even the management had any expectations of Harrison to actually make the NHL at such a young age, therefore I find it difficult to be disappointed in a player that's been expected to take longer to turn pro. It's a well known fact that defensive prospects take a bit longer to develop and become NHL regulars. See a few names...

Colin White - 23 years old
Jason Smith - 22 years old
Adam Foote - 21 years old
Scott Hannan - 21 years old
Jay McKee - 21 years old
Cory Sarich - 22 years old
Richard Matvichuk - 22 years old
Keith Carney - 23 years old
Danny Markov - 22 years old

... and it takes a bit more time to become a really good defensive defenseman. Jay Harrison has the size and tools to be a good #4/5 defensive blueliner, and I'm not sure I'd write him off just yet. He's been playing on pretty bad teams over the last 2 seasons and his development may have taken a bit of a hit, but he's still considered a top 10 prospect in the organization and will play in the NHL somewhere at some time, patience is a virtue.

Quote:
But, even if you remove the performance of the respective players and you simply compare the teams they had to crack, I'm afraid that I would have to wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of the Leaf defense as being as good as you seem to think it was. Even if you put that aside though, there were a number of injuries and opportunities for Harrison to get a call, but didn't. And if the play of Belak and Jackman is your evidence of why he did not, I'm sorry but you must be reffering to different players. They were weak then and they are weak now, well except for Jackman, for whatever reason.
I don't think you're getting the point.

Pat Quinn has had a history of loyalty to undeserving players, and there was no chance for a developing prospect to find his way onto an NHL roster at the age of 20 or 21, especially not one with a handful of #5 to 8 defensemen. When you have Carlo Colaiacovo (our top prospect, arguably) creaping up on 22 years old with 4 career NHL games, there's something blocking these prospects from making it to the show.

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11-05-2004, 05:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
I think a writer on this topic (prospects, development, etc...) needs to have a little patience and be a realist. So far, Harrison has played 2 full seasons at the AHL level and recently turned 22 years of age (November 3rd). I can't seem to understand at what point over the last couple years we as the Toronto Maple Leafs fan base and even the management had any expectations of Harrison to actually make the NHL at such a young age, therefore I find it difficult to be disappointed in a player that's been expected to take longer to turn pro. It's a well known fact that defensive prospects take a bit longer to develop and become NHL regulars. See a few names...

Colin White - 23 years old
Jason Smith - 22 years old
Adam Foote - 21 years old
Scott Hannan - 21 years old
Jay McKee - 21 years old
Cory Sarich - 22 years old
Richard Matvichuk - 22 years old
Keith Carney - 23 years old
Danny Markov - 22 years old

... and it takes a bit more time to become a really good defensive defenseman. Jay Harrison has the size and tools to be a good #4/5 defensive blueliner, and I'm not sure I'd write him off just yet. He's been playing on pretty bad teams over the last 2 seasons and his development may have taken a bit of a hit, but he's still considered a top 10 prospect in the organization and will play in the NHL somewhere at some time, patience is a virtue.


I don't think you're getting the point.

Pat Quinn has had a history of loyalty to undeserving players, and there was no chance for a developing prospect to find his way onto an NHL roster at the age of 20 or 21, especially not one with a handful of #5 to 8 defensemen. When you have Carlo Colaiacovo (our top prospect, arguably) creaping up on 22 years old with 4 career NHL games, there's something blocking these prospects from making it to the show.
So I understand this correctly, giving Harrison another 4 or 5 years to make it, is ok. But Colaiacovo not having made it by now means that he is being blocked? Patience is a virtue naturally, but Leaf Management has a history of running out of patience. While Harrison may make it, if it is not soon, I don't think it will be as a Leaf.

In the case of Colaiacovo, I am thrilled that the team approached his development this way. Allow him to finish out junior, give him one full season in the AHL and then bring him up. Keep in mind, that all were expecting him to make it this year. (Damn lockout) Despite his great first camp, bringing him up too quickly might have hurt him, bringing him along slowly didn't.

The question that to me, most dictates a prospects potential is how well he plays despite the team he is on. Harrison has been alright, but nothing to write home about. While the other players you mentionned showed consistent improvement, year after year. Clearly, you and I are not going to agree. I don't see Harrison as having the stuff to make it. I do hope I am wrong, if only because his potential to me was great and the Leafs could sorely use him, but alas far too much evidense to the contrary IMO.

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11-05-2004, 05:43 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gonsalves
So I understand this correctly, giving Harrison another 4 or 5 years to make it, is ok. But Colaiacovo not having made it by now means that he is being blocked? Patience is a virtue naturally, but Leaf Management has a history of running out of patience. While Harrison may make it, if it is not soon, I don't think it will be as a Leaf.
Really, and aside from Mike Penny, what member of the current Toronto Maple Leafs management and scouting staff was around back in the day of spoiling prospects and horrible drafting?

It's a new regime, personally... I can't see a problem with Harrison playing another 3 seasons in the AHL before considering him a spoiled prospect, even then it would only be considering him as spoiled, doesn't mean it's true.

Quote:
The question that to me, most dictates a prospects potential is how well he plays despite the team he is on. Harrison has been alright, but nothing to write home about. While the other players you mentionned showed consistent improvement, year after year. Clearly, you and I are not going to agree. I don't see Harrison as having the stuff to make it. I do hope I am wrong, if only because his potential to me was great and the Leafs could sorely use him, but alas far too much evidense to the contrary IMO.
I think your expectations of Jay Harrison on draft day of 2001 were too high, you probably thought he'd be a good NHL defensive defensemen real soon because he was projected as a top 10 pick in that draft. Unfortunately you were too optimistic and not so realistic. When you're down on a 22 year old prospect, you must have had high hopes for him and it wore off after a while.

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11-05-2004, 06:52 PM
  #31
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Bell and Wellwood are question marks I like Wellwood and think he has a shot but he has a lot more to prove.

I'm fairly certain Big Woz won't make it at all, if so he's probably nothing more then a boarderline enforcer.

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11-05-2004, 07:01 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Leafsin2006
I'm new here, and I would just like to know in your opinion which Leafs prospect won't make it to the big show?

I would have to say Mark Moro. Honestly, after watching a few Baby Leaf games, I'm not sure why this guy is not in the NHL. It's one of those things you can't figure out why a certain player is not in the NHL. Maybe he's been a victim of numbers, who knows.
Much like Bohonos.

I think mostly everybody else will have an opportunity at the very least.

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11-05-2004, 08:55 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TrueBlue
I would have to say Mark Moro. Honestly, after watching a few Baby Leaf games, I'm not sure why this guy is not in the NHL. It's one of those things you can't figure out why a certain player is not in the NHL. Maybe he's been a victim of numbers, who knows.
Much like Bohonos.

I think mostly everybody else will have an opportunity at the very least.
First of all Marc Moro is not a "prominent Leaf prospect".

Secondly, the thread is asking who won't make it, but you're suggesting that he should.

Third, Marc Moro is not an NHL calibre defenceman.

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11-05-2004, 09:33 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army
First of all Marc Moro is not a "prominent Leaf prospect".

Secondly, the thread is asking who won't make it, but you're suggesting that he should.

Third, Marc Moro is not an NHL calibre defenceman.
And what guidelines do you have that declares one AHL player a 'prominent prospect' over another one? I didn't see any conditions.
They are all prospects and any one of them can see NHL duty. To me that is prominent.

If you read my post, I stated that he won't make it because he is one of those players that just doesn't make it, and I used Lonny as an example, that should answer it, shouldn't it?

And last but not least, to you he may not be an NHL calibre defenceman, but last time I checked, I don't remember them asking Leaf Army who is an NHL calibre defenceman.

They are all prominent prospects, that's why they sign NHL/AHL style contracts. Because the prospect of them making it are better than anybody else.

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11-05-2004, 09:46 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue
And what guidelines do you have that declares one AHL player a 'prominent prospect' over another one? I didn't see any conditions.
They are all prospects and any one of them can see NHL duty. To me that is prominent.

If you read my post, I stated that he won't make it because he is one of those players that just doesn't make it, and I used Lonny as an example, that should answer it, shouldn't it?

And last but not least, to you he may not be an NHL calibre defenceman, but last time I checked, I don't remember them asking Leaf Army who is an NHL calibre defenceman.



They are all prominent prospects, that's why they sign NHL/AHL style contracts. Because the prospect of them making it are better than anybody else.

Navy]Mark Moro is not a prospect, He would be catagorized as career Minor Leaguer, His foot work isn't good enough for him to see NHL time. He does however play a great game, If his skating was better, He would be a NHL player, he would be a decent number 5 or 6. You are right he can see some NHL duty, but I doubt it. This is talking about Leafs Prospect and Mark Moro isn't a Prospect anymore. can he still play in the NHL? Yeas but he is not a prospect.


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11-05-2004, 10:04 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue
And what guidelines do you have that declares one AHL player a 'prominent prospect' over another one? I didn't see any conditions.
They are all prospects and any one of them can see NHL duty. To me that is prominent.
You'd have a tough time finding any source that refers to Moro as a prospect. He's a career minor leaguer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue
And last but not least, to you he may not be an NHL calibre defenceman, but last time I checked, I don't remember them asking Leaf Army who is an NHL calibre defenceman.
You don't have to take my word for it if you don't want.

Just ask the 30 teams in the league that decided he's not good enough to play for them.

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11-05-2004, 10:10 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BuppY
Navy]Mark Moro is not a prospect, He would be catagorized as career Minor Leaguer, His foot work isn't good enough for him to see NHL time. He does however play a great game, If his skating was better, He would be a NHL player, he would be a decent number 5 or 6. You are right he can see some NHL duty, but I doubt it. This is talking about Leafs Prospect and Mark Moro isn't a Prospect anymore. can he still play in the NHL? Yeas but he is not a prospect.

This is something that I must not know about and kept in the darkness.

I was always under the assumption that a 'prospect' is someone who has a chance to make it to the big show. Silly me.

But lets take Nathan Dempsey for example. According to your conditions on what makes a prospect and what doesn't. I would only assume that you would have not regarded him as a prospect because: He is older; seen too much AHL time; not seen enough NHL time. In conclusion, he is not a prospect and a career minor leaguer.
In fact he is older than Moro!

But wait a minute. Dempsey played a whole year in the NHL last year.
What does that make him now? Looks like you will have to concoct another theory of your own and post it.

I look forward in hearing this one. Just watch you don't make yourself 'The Concocter'

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11-05-2004, 10:14 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
You'd have a tough time finding any source that refers to Moro as a prospect. He's a career minor leaguer.



You don't have to take my word for it if you don't want.

Just ask the 30 teams in the league that decided he's not good enough to play for them.

Well, I do know that sometimes 29 teams out of the 30 are not always right.
Take Martin St. Louis, 29 teams passed up on him. From Ottawa to Calgary and everybody else. The Flames brass laughed in Rick Vaive's face when he said he thought Martin could be a 20 goal scorer in the NHL.

One team takes a chance on him and Martin and the Lightening had the last laugh.

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11-05-2004, 10:16 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TrueBlue
Well, I do know that sometimes 29 teams out of the 30 are not always right.
Take Martin St. Louis, 29 teams passed up on him. From Ottawa to Calgary and everybody else. The Flames brass laughed in Rick Vaive's face when he said he thought Martin could be a 20 goal scorer in the NHL.

One team takes a chance on him and Martin and the Lightening had the last laugh.
What is your point?

That every player not in the NHL should be called a "prominent prospect"?

This is so stupid it's not even worth arguing over. Marc Moro is not a prominent prospect. Period.

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11-05-2004, 10:33 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What is your point?

That every player not in the NHL should be called a "prominent prospect"?

This is so stupid it's not even worth arguing over. Marc Moro is not a prominent prospect. Period.
To you he may not be a prospect but to me he still has a good a chance that everybody else has. It may not be with the Leafs, but the original thread asked to the 'big show'.

Yeah I know he's not going to make it, especially with the Leafs.

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11-05-2004, 10:36 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TrueBlue
This is something that I must not know about and kept in the darkness.

I was always under the assumption that a 'prospect' is someone who has a chance to make it to the big show. Silly me.

But lets take Nathan Dempsey for example. According to your conditions on what makes a prospect and what doesn't. I would only assume that you would have not regarded him as a prospect because: He is older; seen too much AHL time; not seen enough NHL time. In conclusion, he is not a prospect and a career minor leaguer.
In fact he is older than Moro!



But wait a minute. Dempsey played a whole year in the NHL last year.
What does that make him now? Looks like you will have to concoct another theory of your own and post it.

I look forward in hearing this one. Just watch you don't make yourself 'The Concocter'

At the time when he left the Leafs he was not a prospect. He was a minor leaguer who had been given a shot but he didn;t run away with it and Leafs Management felt he would no longer be part of the Leafs future and let him go. Mark Moro has been given a shot by Nashville and didn't make it, he then was aquired by the Leafs and they got him so he can help the younger guys in thr AHL, such as Jay harrison, Carlo Colaicovo, Brendon Bell and etc.

A player will be considered a prospect until he meets the following criteria:

This is from Hockey's future Prospect Criteria
1. If a prospect is a skater (forward, defenseman) and has played in 65 NHL games or more before the completion of the season of his 24th birthday; or, if a goaltender has played in 45 NHL games before the completion of the season of his 24th birthday, that player will be considered graduated to the NHL. Conversely, if a player completes the season of his 24th birthday without passing those milestones, then that player will no longer be considered a prospect by Hockey’s Future, regardless of the player’s status with his NHL club.

Can you show me, hockey related site where he is listed as a Prospect?


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11-05-2004, 10:38 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuppY
same can be said about Jay Harrison
Jay Harrison gets no love around here buppy.... Though I defend him to no end people still can't find it in there hearts to give the guy a chance atleast.

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11-05-2004, 10:41 PM
  #43
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I said he can still play in the NHL, but I doubt he will but that is possible. He is NOT prospect. Nathan Dempsey wasn't a Prospect when he left the Leafs. He didn't qualify as a Prospect.

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11-05-2004, 10:43 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Joey24
Jay Harrison gets no love around here buppy.... Though I defend him to no end people still can't find it in there hearts to give the guy a chance atleast.
I think he'll get his shot skating is an issue with him. His Borther Tyler went to school with me he plays for the Battalions, very nice guy and he said his brother has been working on his skating and if he can improve that aspect of the game he will no doubt be a NHL player.

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11-05-2004, 10:49 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BuppY
At the time when he left the Leafs he was not a prospect. He was a minor leaguer who had been given a shot but he didn;t run away with it and Leafs Management felt he would no longer be part of the Leafs future and let him go. Mark Moro has been given a shot by Nashville and didn't make it, he then was aquired by the Leafs and they got him so he can help the younger guys in thr AHL, such as Jay harrison, Carlo Colaicovo, Brendon Bell and etc.

A player will be considered a prospect until he meets the following criteria:

This is from Hockey's future Prospect Criteria
1. If a prospect is a skater (forward, defenseman) and has played in 65 NHL games or more before the completion of the season of his 24th birthday; or, if a goaltender has played in 45 NHL games before the completion of the season of his 24th birthday, that player will be considered graduated to the NHL. Conversely, if a player completes the season of his 24th birthday without passing those milestones, then that player will no longer be considered a prospect by Hockey’s Future, regardless of the player’s status with his NHL club.

Can you show me, hockey related site where he is listed as a Prospect.

A 'hockey site' does not make or break a prospect. Neither do scouts and whoever else is being a judge of talent. There is a possiblity they could be wrong.

Hockey's future Criteria is in place so that they have a system to work with. People want to follow some of the younger prospects in the ranks so they came up with some guidelines to work with. That's great for them to have a standard to work with. But by no means do their criteria dictate who is a prospect and who isn't. It's strictly internal. And I don't think many GMs are using this 'criteria' to make a decision on acquiring a player.

I don't need to give you a hockey site. Hockey sites are not the be all and end all when concerning prospects, yes, prospects. All are prospects until proven otherwise.

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11-05-2004, 10:55 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuppY
I think he'll get his shot skating is an issue with him. His Borther Tyler went to school with me he plays for the Battalions, very nice guy and he said his brother has been working on his skating and if he can improve that aspect of the game he will no doubt be a NHL player.
Jays skating has improved by leaps and bounds over the last two seasons. To be honst I did not see any games this year because the person who usto get them for me is no longer living in Newfound Land. So I havent seen much of him at all this season. I was flipping between the NBA game and the CFL game to see what was happening with the baby leafs and I did not notice Harrison at all tonight was he dressed or what's up with him this year.

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11-05-2004, 10:59 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TrueBlue
A 'hockey site' does not make or break a prospect. Neither do scouts and whoever else is being a judge of talent. There is a possiblity they could be wrong.

Hockey's future Criteria is in place so that they have a system to work with. People want to follow some of the younger prospects in the ranks so they came up with some guidelines to work with. That's great for them to have a standard to work with. But by no means do their criteria dictate who is a prospect and who isn't. It's strictly internal. And I don't think many GMs are using this 'criteria' to make a decision on acquiring a player.

I don't need to give you a hockey site. Hockey sites are not the be all and end all when concerning prospects, yes, prospects. All are prospects until proven otherwise.

so you consider guys who are not in the NHL prospect no mater what their age is?.. That means every player outside of the NHL is a prospect. I believe GM's have a critera and age limits for a Prospects. Like I said some palyers such as Moro do play in the NHL after playing a lot of seasons in the AHL, but arn't prospects. Martin St. Louis wans't a prospect when he signed with Tampa.

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11-05-2004, 10:59 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Joey24
Jay Harrison gets no love around here buppy.... Though I defend him to no end people still can't find it in there hearts to give the guy a chance atleast.
He's not getting any love from Shedden either.

Harrison was a healthy scratch for the 4th time this season tonight. And when he is in the lineup, he's often on the 3rd pairing.

Even Tyson Marsh's only been a scratch 3 times.

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11-05-2004, 11:02 PM
  #49
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Jays skating has improved by leaps and bounds over the last two seasons. To be honst I did not see any games this year because the person who usto get them for me is no longer living in Newfound Land. So I havent seen much of him at all this season. I was flipping between the NBA game and the CFL game to see what was happening with the baby leafs and I did not notice Harrison at all tonight was he dressed or what's up with him this year.
He wasn't dressed tonight. I havn't watched many Baby Leafs games. I live in Brampton and I watched him a lot in the OHL and skating was always an issue and it's good to hear his skating has improved. I believe if there was a season he would have got a long look from the Leafs brass.

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11-05-2004, 11:07 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by BuppY
so you consider guys who are not in the NHL prospect no mater what their age is?.. That means every player outside of the NHL is a prospect. I believe GM's have a critera and age limits for a Prospects. Like I said some palyers such as Moro do play in the NHL after playing a lot of seasons in the AHL, but arn't prospects. Martin St. Louis wans't a prospect when he signed with Tampa.
I consider any player who is signed on with their affiliate NHL team as a prospect.
Why else would they be in the farm system?

Guys who aren't considered prospects anymore are guys like Bohonos and Hirsch. Guys who have been let go by their NHL affiliate.

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