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[EDM/MIN] Tom Gilbert Traded For Nick Schultz - Part 2

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02-29-2012, 11:41 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Like yesterday when you claimed wild fans were jumping in joy, Gilbert has done very little for this PP.
Because that was really important Joe. It was a ***** and giggles comment and I said as much. Peoples comments are not proof of anything. Lets actually look at some or the player performmance.

Or is it too dishonest to do that..

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02-29-2012, 11:41 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
That's one way to look at it. The other is that they have no clue how to evaluate players.

Anyway, at what point do we stop making excuses for crap moves and see the pattern they contain?
How about you start throwing stones when we sign crappy guys to multi year deals starting this offseason when it actually matters towards the end game? They will start trying to build a playoff team for next season, the Barker's, Vandermeer's, Strudwick's, JFJ's, Stortini's, etc. should be completely purged from the roster at that point.

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I don't see why not. He played the majority of his hockey in Canadian markets and has already played here as well as Calgary. I have no way to prove that he would or wouldn't so I'll ask you the same question. Are you assuming he wouldn't? Because given his history he seems to enjoy the Canadian Hockey Markets.

Also it didn't have to be Hamrlik, Tambo could have brought in anyone with over 10 years experience who could fill a top 4 role and I would have been happy. But he goes out and gets a top 2 by his words in Cam Barker.


He decided to roll the dice on a guy that he hoped would return to form, a guy that is young enough that he could've been a 4-5 year fit if he did just that. He didn't give him 2-3 years, he gave him 1 year, a chance to shape up or ship out. Not a big deal. People complain about experience and then you have Schultz with 700+ career games and he gets crapped on? Alrighty then!

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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Well where's your proof? Can you 100% say that he declined Edmonton? My guess Edmonton didn't even make an offer, but again thats an assumption. All I know is that there were several Dmen available last summer that would have been upgrades to our team and we ended up with Cam Barker.
So let's get into a knock down/drag out because someone else can't prove their assumption but you have no need to back up your assumption? Not very fair don't you think? It was my belief all along that this team wanted another high pick this year, we added some veteran help up front, we upgraded on Foster with Sutton and we've since added Schultz a younger vet that fills a need on this club both now and in the future. I anticipate the Oilers trying to fix the goaltending situation this offseason and possibly adding another solid D whether by trade, UFA, or via the draft. If they re-sign Barker, I will be helping you bring out the pitchforks and torches.

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02-29-2012, 11:42 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I would say inconvenient truth more than false info.

The whole we obtained "shutdown D" thing is all the optics this deal had going. Until one actually looks at it at all.

People want to believe that we got some behefit in this deal. I'm still searching for it.
And the whole we dealt a 23 minute d-man is all optics as well.

Being a 23 minute d-man in Edmonton isn't exactly hard.

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02-29-2012, 11:43 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Because that was really important Joe. It was a ***** and giggles comment and I said as much. Peoples comments are not proof of anything. Lets actually look at some or the player performmance.

Or is it too dishonest to do that..
Si if people comments aren't proof of anything why go out and make something up? What is the point of making a Richard Cloutier post?

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02-29-2012, 11:43 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by awesomo View Post
I can't be sure but I think jovo wouldn't have left Florida.flames weren't gonna give hannan to the oilers considering they don't have a lot of dmen, also he's slow rather have Sutton cuz pretty much the same at this point.

No way brewer moves considering tbay needs dmen. And I don't think avs would trade hejda to a division rival.

Corvo isn't really what the team needs. He's a defensive liability, always had been
Those guys were all signed last summer. Hell why didn't we take a chance on Campbell? Florida got him for a song and dance and he was exactly what we needed going forward. O wait I know why because ST wanted to screw the team over one last year to get a high draft pick that may or may not ever become an impact player in the NHL. This organization has become the joke of the league and some posters on here are still kissing Tortellinis ass.

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02-29-2012, 11:44 AM
  #231
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The problem with behindthenet is while they do some competent analysis, their numbers don't make sense in some ways.

For example:

Going by behindthenet numbers for PK, Shea Weber, Kimmo Timmonen, Robyn Regher, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook and Dan Girardi are all worse than Tom Gilbert on the PK.

And that guys such as Ryan Suter are equal to him on the PK.

Those numbers don't make sense, while Gilbert isn't as bad as some posters on here suggest, he is in now way as good as the numbers suggest.

If we do want to talk about behindthenet stats, we should keep in mind in addition to your stats:

Nick Shultz:

QOC: 0.847
GA OFF/60: 2.31
GA ON/60: 2.00
Diff: +0.31


Tom Gilbert:

QOC: 0.103

GA OFF/60: 2.70
GA ON/60: 2.44
Diff: +0.26

I have no doubt Shultz is not as good defensively as the numbers on behindthenet suggest, so those numbers, while give you a decent idea on a player, aren't as solid as say Sabremetrics in baseball. It's the same with Gilbert. I doubt he's as good as the numbers suggest on the PK.


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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Just in response to some distorted claims about what kind of use and success the players had this year some tale of the tape:

Gilbert

3G 14A 17pts

TOI 22.47/G

EV 17.25mins/G 2.44 GA/60mins -4

PK 3.15mins/G 4.85GA/60mins

55hits


Schultz

1G 2A 3pts

TOI 19.35

EV 16.44mins/G 2.00GA/60mins -10

PK 2.33mins/G 6.99GA/60mins

60hits


So what we have above is Gilbert used 3mins more every game, plus Gilbert plays on the PP, and PK, and Schultz only plays on pk. Gilbert clearly has better numbers on the pk this year, is heavily used in that capacity compared to Schultz, and with an easy argument that Gilbert has had the better shutdown pk numbers this year.

Schultz has slightly lower EVGA , although one has to consider that Gilbert contributes some offense EV and Schultz doesn't. Despite giving up slightly more GA at evens Gilbert as noted is -4, and Schultz -10. So arguably Gilbert wins that round as well.

So the performance this season has been Gilbert better on PK, contributes on PP and has been arguably better EV. The hits are the same.

Its debatable who the better shutdown player has been this year. Remember this is the only reason we're bringing Schultz in here.
Gilbert is the more skilled player and with better numbers this year.

Hopefully Schultz steps it up but he's had a rough year.

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02-29-2012, 11:44 AM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Because that was really important Joe. It was a ***** and giggles comment and I said as much. Peoples comments are not proof of anything. Lets actually look at some or the player performmance.

Or is it too dishonest to do that..
Is it too hard to wait awhile until we see what Schultz has to offer on the ice for the Oilers? I recall you crapping on the Eager signing as well as the Foster for Sutton trade. From where I sit, both of those moves look pretty good right now. I'm not saying that Gilbert is/was garbage, but let's see what Schultz has to offer before crapping on the trade, or are trades won/lost on paper/message board opinions?

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02-29-2012, 11:45 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Those guys were all signed last summer. Hell why didn't we take a chance on Campbell? Florida got him for a song and dance and he was exactly what we needed going forward. O wait I know why because ST wanted to screw the team over one last year to get a high draft pick that may or may not ever become an impact player in the NHL. This organization has become the joke of the league and some posters on here are still kissing Tortellinis ass.
Ugh, Campbell wasn't available to us. Do you not follow what actually happens?

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02-29-2012, 11:46 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
And the whole we dealt a 23 minute d-man is all optics as well.

Being a 23 minute d-man in Edmonton isn't exactly hard.
I'd disagree with that, however I'd say that he was thrown into it by necessity more than anything. I'm sure that Schultz will get some serious ES and PK time here as well.

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02-29-2012, 11:47 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I'd disagree with that, however I'd say that he was thrown into it by necessity more than anything. I'm sure that Schultz will get some serious ES and PK time here as well.
That would be the better wording.

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02-29-2012, 11:48 AM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
And the whole we dealt a 23 minute d-man is all optics as well.

Being a 23 minute d-man in Edmonton isn't exactly hard.
You got me mystified with this. I would say its one of the harder roles in the NHL. The job should come complete with incoming sirens and air raid shelters..

jk aside we gave out #2 D, (behind only Smid this year) and a D thats logged the most minutes on the team the past 5yrs, for a guy who's struggling this year.

Oddly we retain clowns like Peckham, Potter, Barker, extend Sutton, and hope for the best by adding Schultz, and subtracting a player who has been our go to D for years.

This does not equal improving our D.

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02-29-2012, 11:50 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Interesting, where did you hear that one?
I honestly can't recall which blog it was...it was a few months back when I read about it. I think Gregor was trying to dig a little deeper on the subject but I don't know how successful he was.
The fact that he thought it was worthy of additional time may indicate that there is an element of truth to it.
The notion of this having actually happened is quite troubling IMO.

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02-29-2012, 11:50 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Ugh, Campbell wasn't available to us. Do you not follow what actually happens?
Link?

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02-29-2012, 11:50 AM
  #239
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Replacement can't answer your questions as he is currently erecting a statue of Tom Gilbert next to Wayne Gretzky outside Rexall

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02-29-2012, 11:52 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Si if people comments aren't proof of anything why go out and make something up? What is the point of making a Richard Cloutier post?
Well I have no idea who Richard Cloutier is so I assure you I'm not imitating anyone in particular.

Whats the point of any post here if you really look at it. I'm wasting my time. you?

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02-29-2012, 11:52 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
Replacement can't answer your questions as he is currently erecting a statue of Tom Gilbert next to Wayne Gretzky outside Rexall
Hopefully it's on a moveable platform so it can be easily moved to the new arena.

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02-29-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Just in response to some distorted claims about what kind of use and success the players had this year some tale of the tape:

Gilbert

3G 14A 17pts

TOI 22.47/G

EV 17.25mins/G 2.44 GA/60mins -4

PK 3.15mins/G 4.85GA/60mins

55hits


Schultz

1G 2A 3pts

TOI 19.35

EV 16.44mins/G 2.00GA/60mins -10

PK 2.33mins/G 6.99GA/60mins

60hits


So what we have above is Gilbert used 3mins more every game, plus Gilbert plays on the PP, and PK, and Schultz only plays on pk. Gilbert clearly has better numbers on the pk this year, is heavily used in that capacity compared to Schultz, and with an easy argument that Gilbert has had the better shutdown pk numbers this year.

Schultz has slightly lower EVGA , although one has to consider that Gilbert contributes some offense EV and Schultz doesn't. Despite giving up slightly more GA at evens Gilbert as noted is -4, and Schultz -10. So arguably Gilbert wins that round as well.

So the performance this season has been Gilbert better on PK, contributes on PP and has been arguably better EV. The hits are the same.

Its debatable who the better shutdown player has been this year. Remember this is the only reason we're bringing Schultz in here.
Gilbert is the more skilled player and with better numbers this year.

Hopefully Schultz steps it up but he's had a rough year.
How about a bigger sample size...perhaps by digging up the stats from the past 3 years.
Although I think you already know what you would find for both Schultz and Gilbert.
Best you stick with Gilberts miraculous turnaround season with Smid lest you undermine your own argument.

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02-29-2012, 11:54 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
How about you start throwing stones when we sign crappy guys to multi year deals starting this offseason when it actually matters towards the end game? They will start trying to build a playoff team for next season, the Barker's, Vandermeer's, Strudwick's, JFJ's, Stortini's, etc. should be completely purged from the roster at that point.
Because based on their body of work, I don't think they know how to evaluate players and assign value to them. That includes getting the most out of the kids while they are still cheap.

We're not gonna resolve this though because I'm looking at what they've done and you and others are saying the past doesn't matter at all. Time will tell, as always, but three years is a long-ass time already; how much more rope are you willing to give? in other words, what's the benchmark for determining whether or not these guys are the right one's to carry the rebuild into the next stage?

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02-29-2012, 11:54 AM
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I'd disagree with that, however I'd say that he was thrown into it by necessity more than anything. I'm sure that Schultz will get some serious ES and PK time here as well.
Well unfortunately if you look at the numbers the same situation applies in Minnesota except Schultz was failing in his capacities there.

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02-29-2012, 11:55 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I don't think there were many last year that I'd give the money too. This year there are a few, but they could very well be re-signed.

Making a stupid signing like Buf did with Erhoff or CBJ did with the Wiz isn't the answer either.
Oh Sorry I meant cost as in cost to the organization (ie. players to trade) not just outright cash.

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02-29-2012, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
How about a bigger sample size...perhaps by digging up the stats from the past 3 years.
Although I think you already know what you would find for both Schultz and Gilbert.
Best you stick with Gilberts miraculous turnaround season with Smid lest you undermine your own argument.
Well feel free to point out what Schultz has accomplished in his last 3 seasons. I've made several posts in different threads about what Gilbert accomplished here in recent seasons. I'm sure you could find one of them.

I'm sure anybody could do the heavy lifting on Schultz behalf if they could find something he brings to the table thats presently noteworthy.


Last edited by Replacement: 02-29-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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02-29-2012, 11:57 AM
  #247
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Link?
Had 8 teams he could go to. Declined to go to CBJ and orginally didn't want to go to Florida.

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02-29-2012, 11:58 AM
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Oh Sorry I meant cost as in cost to the organization (ie. players to trade) not just outright cash.
Ah okay. I agree.

Franson still bugs me. It's not that he is a guarantee answer to our problem it's just that he is someone I would've loved to take a chance on.

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02-29-2012, 11:59 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
How about you start throwing stones when we sign crappy guys to multi year deals starting this offseason when it actually matters towards the end game? They will start trying to build a playoff team for next season, the Barker's, Vandermeer's, Strudwick's, JFJ's, Stortini's, etc. should be completely purged from the roster at that point.





He decided to roll the dice on a guy that he hoped would return to form, a guy that is young enough that he could've been a 4-5 year fit if he did just that. He didn't give him 2-3 years, he gave him 1 year, a chance to shape up or ship out. Not a big deal. People complain about experience and then you have Schultz with 700+ career games and he gets crapped on? Alrighty then!



So let's get into a knock down/drag out because someone else can't prove their assumption but you have no need to back up your assumption? Not very fair don't you think? It was my belief all along that this team wanted another high pick this year, we added some veteran help up front, we upgraded on Foster with Sutton and we've since added Schultz a younger vet that fills a need on this club both now and in the future. I anticipate the Oilers trying to fix the goaltending situation this offseason and possibly adding another solid D whether by trade, UFA, or via the draft. If they re-sign Barker, I will be helping you bring out the pitchforks and torches.
The thing about Barker is that he never had a form. His 45 point season he was a 3rd pairing d man who was severely sheltered. And I was just trying to point out that you could make assumptions either way. The Tambo supporter on this board always seem to have the assumption that no one would ever come to Edmonton. All I know is that there were defenseman available that would have helped this team and Tambo did f all to bring one in. That's not an assumption that's fact!

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02-29-2012, 12:00 PM
  #250
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Is it too hard to wait awhile until we see what Schultz has to offer on the ice for the Oilers? I recall you crapping on the Eager signing as well as the Foster for Sutton trade. From where I sit, both of those moves look pretty good right now. I'm not saying that Gilbert is/was garbage, but let's see what Schultz has to offer before crapping on the trade, or are trades won/lost on paper/message board opinions?
I don't know why I would need a lot more time to determine problems with how this org is being run are continuing.

This isn't about having no faith in Schultz, its more to do with the ongoing saga of incompetent management screwing around with the player resources we do have.

We just gave up a better D than we are likely to obtain anywhere in years. Why we did that? I dunno.

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