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[EDM/MIN] Tom Gilbert Traded For Nick Schultz - Part 2

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02-29-2012, 02:24 PM
  #326
Matt Ryan
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
I'm saying we need better puck
movers. I don't know how many times I've seen our forwards have to circle at the blue line waiting for a pass this year. Also would be nice to add another defensive dman but I would have preferred to keep Gilbert.

Something like

Gilbert-Whitney
Carle-Smid
Petry-Sutton
Potter

Is what I would have liked to see.
I wouldn't be surprised if Petry is better than or equal to Whitney/Gilbert next year. Also, I'd rather have Schultz, a stay-at-home guy, playing with Whitney than Gilbert. But that's just me...I'll reserve further judgement after I actually watch him; I'm going by his reputation right now.

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02-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Schultz -10, Gilbert -4. Even on EV, Gilbert has made the better contribution.

Nobodies chucking anybody under the bus. But the notion that Schultz is immediately better than Gilbert as shutdown play is misleading. Its something the MSM, and this board have been foisting. I'm not sure where that is from as no numbers deem that out.
Schultz has 35 GA. Gilbert has 39 GA in 200 fewer minutes.

That's where the notion of Schultz being a better shutdown defenseman comes from.

Gilbert has 10 GF more than Schultz which changes the +/- pretty significantly and doesn't really represent the difference in defensive play between the two players.

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02-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Huge for Nuge View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if Petry is better than or equal to Whitney/Gilbert next year. Also, I'd rather have Schultz, a stay-at-home guy, playing with Whitney than Gilbert. But that's just me...I'll reserve further judgement after I actually watch him; I'm going by his reputation right now.
The thing I like about the way thats set up is that when Whitney goes down everyone just slides up on the Left side and you still have some strong pairings. It also makes Petry earn his ice time which is good for young players. If he outperforms Gilbert then swap them places, either way it would have to been nice keeping him when you recognize that Whitney has a chronic injury problem.

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02-29-2012, 02:29 PM
  #329
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You know +/- isn't a good indicator. Why are you continuing to use this stat? The wild were bottom 4 in goal differential at -28. The oilers middle of the pack -17. Also the wild are a sinking ship they've won like 7 games since December
Gilbert has played his WHOLE CAREER on a sinking ship. I wonder Schultz would fare in that. Probably sink, like this year.

But what stops you from correcting the several posters that are saying Gilbert was junk because of a minus rating while his club has successive -70, and -79 seasons?

Doesn't it work both ways?

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02-29-2012, 02:30 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Schultz -10, Gilbert -4. Even on EV, Gilbert has made the better contribution.

Nobodies chucking anybody under the bus. But the notion that Schultz is immediately better than Gilbert as shutdown play is misleading. Its something the MSM, and this board have been foisting. I'm not sure where that is from as no numbers deem that out.
If your assertion is that +/- is a stronger indicator for your position than GA/60, this discussion is probably over before it begins.

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02-29-2012, 02:33 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Schultz has 35 GA. Gilbert has 39 GA in 200 fewer minutes.

That's where the notion of Schultz being a better shutdown defenseman comes from.

Gilbert has 10 GF more than Schultz which changes the +/- pretty significantly and doesn't really represent the difference in defensive play between the two players..
Sure, understood. Gilbert is a slightly higher risk/reward player. But Gilbert has better numbers on PK this year and contiributes more offense. You can point the few more GA that Gilbert is on the ice for, but this ignores that appreciably more GF take place with Gilbert on the ice.

Schultz tends to shutdown everything, GF and GA, and has not made any kind of useful contribution this season.

edit: I just checked your stats. Schultz played just 120 more minutes but Gilbert played more PK minutes and Schultz still gave up 19GA in less minutes on pk than Gilberts 12GA on pk.


Last edited by Replacement: 02-29-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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02-29-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
If your assertion is that +/- is a stronger indicator for your position than GA/60, this discussion is probably over before it begins.
WEll you can check the last few pages for any of the stats I've intoduced to the thread other than +/-

Or you can pretend this is all I've used.

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02-29-2012, 02:38 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
WEll you can check the last few pages for any of the stats I've intoduced to the thread other than +/-

Or you can pretend this is all I've used.
Nick Schultz ranks 34th in the NHL in GA/60. Tom Gilbert ranks 89th.

Gilbert's GF/60 is almost a full goal higher than Schultz's (2.29 to 1.39)

You stated that Gilbert has been more effective defensively that Nick Schultz at even strength this year. That statement is simply not true.

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02-29-2012, 02:38 PM
  #334
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Schultz is a real character guy and I enjoy his defensive game.

I loved his "this team has a lot of sexy players. Maybe that wasn't the best way to describe it" line haha.

Whitney is slowly playing better. If he can get back to form the Whitney, xxxxx, Smid, Schultz, Petry, Potter, Sutton. We would need to pick up a first pairing right handed defenseman IMO.

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02-29-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Sure, understood. Gilbert is a slightly higher risk/reward player. But Gilbert has better numbers on PK this year and contiributes more offense. You can point the few more GA that Gilbert is on the ice for, but this ignores that appreciably more GF take place with Gilbert on the ice.
And I think that's why management wanted a guy like Schultz. Less risk/reward. More consistency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Schultz tends to shutdown everything, GF and GA, and has not made any kind of useful contribution this season.
I would say being #1 in ESTOI and PKTOI while being the second best on your team in GA/60 is a pretty significant contribution.

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02-29-2012, 02:42 PM
  #336
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If we keep putting the odd win together like we have post-all-star break, we could easily be out of the lottery come the end of the year. Then what will you have to say about making improvements? Right now we are on pace to finish with 10 more points than last year. That is a solid improvement for not adding much to the team.
Just a healthy Hall and Eberle, a dynamite rookie in RNH, and 15 games of unsustainable all-world goaltending to start the year.

Seems legit.

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02-29-2012, 02:44 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Nick Schultz ranks 34th in the NHL in GA/60. Tom Gilbert ranks 89th.

Gilbert's GF/60 is almost a full goal higher than Schultz's (2.29 to 1.39)

You stated that Gilbert has been more effective defensively that Nick Schultz at even strength this year. That statement is simply not true.
I said he was the better player EV. Which he was.

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02-29-2012, 02:47 PM
  #338
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I said he was the better player EV. Which he was.
And Schultz has better defensive EV numbers, period.

A top 40 guy GA/60 playing the amount Schultz does would certainly qualify as a contribution to his team.

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02-29-2012, 02:54 PM
  #339
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And Schultz has better defensive EV numbers, period.

A top 40 guy GA/60 playing the amount Schultz does would certainly qualify as a contribution to his team.
Except that his net contribution wasn't all that great.

What Schultz offers is slightle decreased GA but thats more than offset by him adding absolutely no contribution in GF.

Overall Gilbert has been the better player.

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02-29-2012, 02:55 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
Just a healthy Hall and Eberle, a dynamite rookie in RNH, and 15 games of unsustainable all-world goaltending to start the year.

Seems legit.
Yeah those points definitely have nothing to do with a vastly improved PP, an improved PK, an improvement to FO wins, Smid taking the next step, Petry making a leap.

You betcha shooter, just Hall and Ebs being healthy(I don't even think they've missed a game) and RNH playing out of this world for 40 some games.

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02-29-2012, 02:56 PM
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You calling Potter a PMD is like me calling Shawn Horcoff a prolific Scorer.
You mean the same Corey Potter that is outscoring Gilbert in 3 less games played this season?

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02-29-2012, 02:56 PM
  #342
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EV+PK GA/60:

Gilbert = 3.202
Schultz = 2.632


Schultz is the superior defensive player this year and most would say it's been a rough year for him too.

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02-29-2012, 02:57 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
And I think that's why management wanted a guy like Schultz. Less risk/reward. More consistency.



I would say being #1 in ESTOI and PKTOI while being the second best on your team in GA/60 is a pretty significant contribution.
I said "useful"

Not failing efforts. Schultz wasn't any good on the PK this year. He stemmed some bleeding at EV, I give him that.

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02-29-2012, 02:57 PM
  #344
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Except that his net contribution wasn't all that great.

What Schultz offers is slightle decreased GA but thats more than offset by him adding absolutely no contribution in GF.

Overall Gilbert has been the better player.
Gilbert has been very good this year, but you are continually asserting that Schultz has not been contributing anything "useful" this year. That isn't true.

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02-29-2012, 02:57 PM
  #345
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Except that his net contribution wasn't all that great.

What Schultz offers is slightle decreased GA but thats more than offset by him adding absolutely no contribution in GF.

Overall Gilbert has been the better player.
Because he has been playing over his head, I mean at least I'm not convinced this is Gilbert is projecting.

I'm prepared to eat crow on that statement too.

Gilbert in October/November has been very different from Gilbert post injury.

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02-29-2012, 02:59 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Gilbert has been very good this year, but you are continually asserting that Schultz has not been contributing anything this year. That isn't true.
Minny has not benefitted appreciably from Schultz's contributions. Hows that for a statement?

Look, were just playing semantics here, I'm actually tired of arguing, I need to get more work done, and we'll see what happens. Hopefully Schultz does well here.

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02-29-2012, 03:05 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
Just a healthy Hall and Eberle, a dynamite rookie in RNH, and 15 games of unsustainable all-world goaltending to start the year.

Seems legit.
Do you mean that Hall, Eberle and RNH are the reason that the PK is so vastly improved? Oh whoops, they don't play the PK and guess who does? That's right, Belanger, Smyth and Sutton. All of whom were brought in by Tambellini in the offseason. Also, the Oilers are one of the most improved faceoff teams in the league and you know who leads the Oilers in F.O.%, That's right, Belanger who Tambo brought in.

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02-29-2012, 03:05 PM
  #348
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Yeah those points definitely have nothing to do with a vastly improved PP, an improved PK, an improvement to FO wins, Smid taking the next step, Petry making a leap.
If by vastly improved PP, you mean one where they are shooting the lights out percentage wise. Also ties into what I said about the big three, who've figured in 52% of the Oilers PP points this season.

Anyway, the point was: they should have been better this year what with the addition of RNH and the return of Hall, Eberle, Whitney and Hemsky. But there they are, floundering in the basement.

Again.

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02-29-2012, 03:06 PM
  #349
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You mean the same Corey Potter that is outscoring Gilbert in 3 less games played this season?
How about actually watching the game before calling me out on something. Potter has gotten all his points on the PP, Gilbert gets most of his of the rush. Also he's outscoring him by 1 point and one of those 3 games Gilbert was adjusting to a new team and almost had a goal.

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02-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #350
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The thing I like about the way thats set up is that when Whitney goes down everyone just slides up on the Left side and you still have some strong pairings. It also makes Petry earn his ice time which is good for young players. If he outperforms Gilbert then swap them places, either way it would have to been nice keeping him when you recognize that Whitney has a chronic injury problem.
Yep, we cant have it all though

We may when our prospects develop, however

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