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[EDM/MIN] Tom Gilbert Traded For Nick Schultz - Part 2

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Old
02-29-2012, 03:06 PM
  #376
guymez
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
It's called video, not sure how to upload an Oilers game to YouTube or else I'd do that.
Moving the puck up ice was not one of Gilberts strong suits.
It was a relief when he kept the drama to a minimum.

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02-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #377
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in referencing my criminally ignored post, whether people agree or disagree with it the oilers organization treated gilbert as, at best, secondary to Petry and over the course of February appeared to become expendable.
And you have complete confidence that the Oilers were able to get the proper read on a defenceman based on - not even the quality of play - but the mere concious decision of giving Petry more ice time for less than a month's worth of hockey?

For all the arguing about Gilbert VS Schultz, I would say the critical comparison is between Petry and Gilbert considering he is the one expected to take over Gilbert's roll. Using allotted ice time over a 3 week span as the primary point is pretty weak.

It seems, shall we say, arbitrary.

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02-29-2012, 03:10 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Moving the puck up ice was not one of Gilberts strong suits.
It was a relief when he kept the drama to a minimum.

Exactly. We need some low event, boring hockey in our own end. Especially protecting leads in the last minute or so.

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02-29-2012, 03:12 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
It's called video, not sure how to upload an Oilers game to YouTube or else I'd do that.
Any highlight video can show the best of any player, doesn't mean that they do it consistently. I can find videos of Belanger scoring goals, that doesn't mean he's a good goal scorer.

Gilbert was good at some things, he was never a great passer consistently.
Gilbert is good at shielding the puck from defenders and skating the puck out of trouble and he makes smart decisions in the offensive zone but he's not a very good passer and certainly not at the stretch pass. If he was, the transition game would have been in much better shape.
The team usually got in trouble when Gilbert tried stretch passes or to chip it up the boards, he's better at making simple plays by shielding the puck and skating it out of the defensive zone.

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02-29-2012, 03:12 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
I am as big a critic of Tambo as anybody but its pretty tough to fault him on the Belanger deal.

I thought then (and still do think) it was a good signing because it addressed a need. Nobody could have predicted that Belangers offence would simply dry up.

Using Belanger as an argument to blast Tambo is a red herring.
The player was a good pick up. Even without the offense, he still is. It's a mystery why they inked him for three years, though. And another why he's getting so much PP time.

It's not that big a deal, mind you, but it again tells you something about this management team. I think they fixate on guys with a pedigree (former high draft picks or guys with a rep) and overvalue them as a consequence.

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02-29-2012, 03:16 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
The player was a good pick up. Even without the offense, he still is. It's a mystery why they inked him for three years, though. And another why he's getting so much PP time.

It's not that big a deal, mind you, but it again tells you something about this management team. I think they fixate on guys with a pedigree (former high draft picks or guys with a rep) and overvalue them as a consequence.
That's not Tambellini's fault.

Signing Belanger shows that management recognized a weakness (PK and faceoffs) and decided to strenghten it which it did. I don't understand the beef. There's no overvaluing going on with Belanger, he was a good value signing even without the offense.

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02-29-2012, 03:17 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
That's not Tambellini's fault.
Really? Isn't he the General Manager?

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02-29-2012, 03:17 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
Not true. Last year at this time, Ottawa was only three points up on Edmonton, the Isles by 6.
Sorry my bad.

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02-29-2012, 03:18 PM
  #384
CanadianCommie
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
And you have complete confidence that the Oilers were able to get the proper read on a defenceman based on - not even the quality of play - but the mere concious decision of giving Petry more ice time for less than a month's worth of hockey?

For all the arguing about Gilbert VS Schultz, I would say the critical comparison is between Petry and Gilbert considering he is the one expected to take over Gilbert's roll. Using allotted ice time over a 3 week span as the primary point is pretty weak.

It seems, shall we say, arbitrary.
Then I would ask you to provide a statistical analysis that counters mine, rather than brushing it off as arbitrary without some sort of foundation for doing so.

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02-29-2012, 03:19 PM
  #385
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Really? Isn't he the General Manager?
What does the GM have to do with putting Belanger on the PP, doesn't Renney makes those decisions?

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02-29-2012, 03:20 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
What does the GM have to do with putting Belanger on the PP, doesn't Renney makes those decisions?
Who does Renney answer to?

You don't think the guy who signs the cheques has some input into how they are used?

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02-29-2012, 03:23 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
Who does Renney answer to?

You don't think the guy who signs the cheques has some input into how they are used?
Heh? Do you think that Tambellini runs to the locker room and tells Renney that he better put Belanger on the PP or else?

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02-29-2012, 03:28 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
The player was a good pick up. Even without the offense, he still is. It's a mystery why they inked him for three years, though. And another why he's getting so much PP time.

It's not that big a deal, mind you, but it again tells you something about this management team. I think they fixate on guys with a pedigree (former high draft picks or guys with a rep) and overvalue them as a consequence.
The term is debatable...I will give you that.
Having said that I think its common knowledge that the team was going to have to overpay to get FA's to live in Edmonton and play for a lottery team.

I am not sold on Tambo steering this ship but if this team makes the playoffs next season and improves from there it will be hard to call this curiously run 'rebuild' a failure.

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02-29-2012, 03:29 PM
  #389
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I also don't see how tracking a general trend in TOI while also comparing production numbers over the course of that time is arbitrary. It quite clearly points to Petry taking over a significant portion of Gilbert's playing time and I don't think it's a stretch to conclude from that that the coaching staff feels Petry has passed Gilbert on the depth chart in regards to special teams and offensive output.

I'd be fine debating the merit of the coaching staff's decision in that regard, but that doesn't change what leaps out off the game log pages at me when I read them.

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02-29-2012, 03:30 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Heh? Do you think that Tambellini runs to the locker room and tells Renney that he better put Belanger on the PP or else?
Though I don't disagree with the discussion, realistically it's getting rather pointless to belabor that single point, as the Oilers PP for the ENTIRE season has been one of the best in the entire league, Belanger or no Belanger.

Now this isn't me providing a pass to Renney, he's made me use the palm face throughout the season, but there are better and more tangible argument's for his failings as bench boss then "Belanger on the PP" which hasn't had really any negative affect, when you think about it.

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02-29-2012, 03:37 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Heh? Do you think that Tambellini runs to the locker room and tells Renney that he better put Belanger on the PP or else?
For the most part the GM won't say anything. If ST disagrees he can voice his concern, but Renney won't pull him off if he doesn't want to.

With that being said, if Renney goes against ST too much and fails he won't be around next year.

Now with that being said go to this page and I'm almost 100% sure that ST isn't questioning or PP.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...ewName=summary

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02-29-2012, 03:42 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by CanadianCommie View Post
I'd be fine debating the merit of the coaching staff's decision in that regard, but that doesn't change what leaps out off the game log pages at me when I read them.
It's probably even more clear when you are looking for something to confirm what you want to see.

I don't know what kind of statistical analysis you want but I would say that the toi ice stat is flawed in that;

a) the coach controls it and we don't know if or what motivations are behind his decisions
b) Gilbert was coming off an injury which may have affected how he was being used
c) the production argument you are trying to link to the ice time argument can also be in part affected by the match ups Gilbert and Whitney were seeing once they got back from their injuries

Factor in that we know, or should know, that experience and the defence position go hand in hand - something Petry has almost none of and of which consistency is born from - also something of which Petry is a long way of proving he has

This fan base and to a certain extent this organization has a history of overvaluing the shiny new prospect only to learn the hard way that development isn't a true and uniform path. Given where this team is positioned and what they just gave up there is probably a refresher course on this lesson coming down the path and that doesn't bode well for the significant leap forward this team was supposed to make this year...err next year.

But sure toi ice in the month of February is a start...

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02-29-2012, 03:52 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
Who does Renney answer to?

You don't think the guy who signs the cheques has some input into how they are used?
By that reasoning this the only person we can possibly blame here is Daryl Katz.

GMs hire coaches so that the coaches can run the team. I'm sure coaches just loooooooove it when GMs start telling them how to do their job.

You're reaching and you know it.

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02-29-2012, 03:54 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
It's probably even more clear when you are looking for something to confirm what you want to see.

I don't know what kind of statistical analysis you want but I would say that the toi ice stat is flawed in that;

a) the coach controls it and we don't know if or what motivations are behind his decisions
b) Gilbert was coming off an injury which may have affected how he was being used
c) the production argument you are trying to link to the ice time argument can also be in part affected by the match ups Gilbert and Whitney were seeing once they got back from their injuries

Factor in that we know, or should know, that experience and the defence position go hand in hand - something Petry has almost none of and of which consistency is born from - also something of which Petry is a long way of proving he has

This fan base and to a certain extent this organization has a history of overvaluing the shiny new prospect only to learn the hard way that development isn't a true and uniform path. Given where this team is positioned and what they just gave up there is probably a refresher course on this lesson coming down the path and that doesn't bode well for the significant leap forward this team was supposed to make this year...err next year.

But sure toi ice in the month of February is a start...
I'll take whatever sort of statistical analysis either proves or disproves my point, while I will acknowledge the stats I pointed out are a small sample size, I am not entirely convinced it undercuts the narrative I presented. After 2 games under 20 minutes, gilbert's minutes climbed back up for 3 games, and then plummeted back down to under 20, mainly in favour of Petry getting a significant bump in playing time.


Ultimately my point won't be "proved" or "disproved" without some underlying doubts until a greater sample size is presented, but I still feel fairly confident in my position.

however if you do have something to present to undercut it, I'd me more than happy to debate it. Just calling it arbitrary seems like a bit of a baseless.

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02-29-2012, 03:58 PM
  #395
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for the record I was actually very surprised at how much PK time petry is getting, that really stood out for me. With the amount they are leaning on him, if he really wasn't capable of at least replacing gilbert's results then I'd have expected a noticeable degradation in the quality of the PK, and, unless I miss my guess, that hasn't happened.

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02-29-2012, 04:14 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by CanadianCommie View Post
I'll take whatever sort of statistical analysis either proves or disproves my point, while I will acknowledge the stats I pointed out are a small sample size, I am not entirely convinced it undercuts the narrative I presented.
Unless you have the answers to my three points already listed there is nothing to disprove.

Believe me, I would love to see Petry not only prove to be the real deal but be the real deal as of this moment.

That said, history tells us that there is a painful learning curve ahead for him and Tambellini's wisdom just traded his safety blanket.

Don't worry though, I am sure there will be a shiny new prospect that comes along next year and I have no doubt someone will be able to isolate some segement of a stat that shows he is going to be a star.

As it pertains to Petry, hopefully he is still around when he finally reaches his maturity, just like Gilbert...err I mean Schultz is.

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02-29-2012, 04:30 PM
  #397
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As it pertains to Petry, hopefully he is still around when he finally reaches his maturity, just like Gilbert...err I mean Schultz is.
I doubt he'll be around. Management has made a huge change this year from trading away players for prospects and picks to trading away players for lesser players. Expect to see Eager traded for Avery this summer.

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02-29-2012, 05:02 PM
  #398
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I doubt he'll be around. Management has made a huge change this year from trading away players for prospects and picks to trading away players for lesser players. Expect to see Eager traded for Avery this summer.
Gilbert may be a better forward than schultz but I'm pretty sure schultz is the better dman of the two

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02-29-2012, 05:04 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Heh? Do you think that Tambellini runs to the locker room and tells Renney that he better put Belanger on the PP or else?
That mental image, along with it's insinuation by Little Fury made me giggle.

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02-29-2012, 06:01 PM
  #400
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Gilbert would have been a decent chip in a package to trade for Ott.

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