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[EDM/MIN] Tom Gilbert Traded For Nick Schultz - Part 2

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03-16-2012, 10:43 AM
  #551
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I not arguing this. If anythign I'm saying its early. My position matches Misfit. We didn't appreciable improve our D position. Its a lateral move imo.
I said as much the day of the trade. There are pros and cons of each player. At the end of the day however with this team, I take the d-man who helps keep the puck out of the net every day of the week. Keep in mind I'm saying with this current team.

I'll still also hold by my statement that this is still a buy low sell high type move. Tell me in which previous seasons Minny would have made this trade for Gilbert straight up.

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03-16-2012, 10:45 AM
  #552
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That would be a specific explanation. What I am arguing, and the data is on my side, is that Gilbert has ALWAYS logged more minutes than Schultz wherever, and with whoever.

Different players have different recovery capacities. Gilbert happens to be one of those players that can play 25mins/night quite easily while staying healthy. Not many of those guys out there.
I would agree with you if both players had played for numerous teams in their careers, but I find the argument a bit disingenuous when Gilbert has played for only one team: The Oilers in the age of suck, an age where the suck is correlated with having an inadequate defense and, not surprisingly, a decent/capable defenceman like Gilbert got a lot of minutes.

Schultz on the other hand had the luxury of playing on a reportedly strong defensive team for his career and his minutes reflect that.

I also agree that Gilbert was very durable, but at what point does durability trade off for a better fit/different skillset? Steve MacIntrye was pretty durable too, doesn't mean he should be playing in place of Hemsky

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03-16-2012, 10:49 AM
  #553
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Over the period of time that Schultz has played for the wild, they have owned the Oilers in the face, Gilbert has played more minutes to be sure but has something like half the NHL games played that Schultz does. Saying that look at who was playing defense in St.Paul over that stretch and look who was playing defense in Edmonton over that stretch. Gilbert played a lot more minutes because our defense frankly sucked the big one for a long time after Pronger left (and still does to some degree) whereas Minnesota had a pretty tight defensive core requiring a player like Schultz to not have to play 25-27 minutes a night.

I understand that Gilbert was playing much better this year, but how much of that can be attributed to Smid jacking his level up as well? and since the injury he received from Carcillo he was looking much as he had previous to this year. which had not been all that fantastic as our finishes in the last few years may attest.

I like Gilbert as much as the next Oilers fan, but he does not play for us anymore, no amount of breast beating and bemoaning the idiocy of management will change that. (you can still wear your Gilbert jersey) no one will mind.

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03-16-2012, 11:05 AM
  #554
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The whole argument has nothing to do with Gilbert and Schultz. We all know that some people's agenda is too dump on every move the teams management makes.

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03-16-2012, 11:07 AM
  #555
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Yes Gilbert may have a better stamina if that's what you are arguing. At the same time we also aren't arguing apples to apples. The Minny defenses that Schultz played on and that Gilbert is playing on are completely different. So that could be the reason why Schultz didn't play more in Minny because they actually had other legit d-men.

At the same time in Edmonton and to a lesser extent, Petry didn't play as many significant minutes with Gilbert than he is now with Schultz. One thing that is for certain is that Petry was gradually taking minutes away from Gilbert and Gilbert this year also played much of the year with an absent Ryan Whitney while Schultz joined the team with a much improved Petry and a team with Whitney in the line-up.

Regardless of how you slice it you're argument is arguing apples to apples.

Yeah, I pointed it out around the time of the trade that Gilbert's minutes, but EV and on special teams were being eroded from February onward and almost all being gobbled up by Petry and a returning whitney.

Gilbert's minutes in edmonton in february were pretty much the same as what schultz is getting NOW.

Gilbert was playng significantly more minutes at the beginning of the year, sure, but when petry started to crank it up and whitney started to actually play hockey he was the one whose minutes were dialed back.

Whether people agree with it or not the organization probably thought that Schultz and Gilbert were at least on par with each other, but, as has been stated in this thread before, that the tipping point was Schultz's playstyle being more of a "fit" in a general sense.

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03-16-2012, 11:09 AM
  #556
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There are many Tom Gilbert statues throughout Rexall.

Just look for the sign. You will find them there.
That's Gibby on the left, correct?

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03-16-2012, 11:33 AM
  #557
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If Petry didn't bloom, where would Schultz be? Possibly in Gilberts spot.

Of course if Petry didn't improve they wouldn't have made the trade.

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03-16-2012, 11:44 AM
  #558
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Ah, gratuitous insults spiced with ageism. I like it. About what I would expect.

Desjardins does a lot of good work. Unfortunately his acolytes seem a little too ideologically predisposed to take too seriously.

I also remember once upon a time forcing Tyler Dellow to admit - after seriously impressive prevarication attempts - that he had never taken a statistics course in his life. I've never bothered to ask Lowetide what his math qualifications look like. I won't bother with the guys at C&B because if you can't say something nice what is tht point. And I can't.

But to be serious - which may be a waste of time - Gilbert was a decent second pairing guy (closer to a #4 than a #3 dman on a middling team). Nothing more, nothing less. And the Oilers are short of guys even that good so it isn't like he was a throwaway.

We got back a guy that is much better than Gilbert in his own end who actually knows how to play defence positionally. If you can't see that or haven't bothered to watch I'm sorry. Madeup stats don't change that. When you look at time on ice for this team this year I am not convinced that that represents a legitimate standard for evaluation either. Tambellini either made this trade with Renney's blessing or with the knowledge that what Renney thinks of it is inconsequential so TOI is moot.

It is about balance and the Oilers needed somebody that knows how to play that role properly if for no other reason than that the kids coming will benefit.

And Gilbert and Schultz are basically the same age so I have no idea how that is an issue.
Good post.

Thats exactly what my eyes were seeing on the ice as well with Gilbert. Apparently actually watching the game carries little weight with some people these days.

Gilbert was as you described him...a top 4 dman who didn't do anything with excellence. Not a throw away player by any means especially with the sorry defence this team has but the time I have watched Schultz this season with the Wild and the Oilers they got exactly who I thought they were getting. A strong skating defensive top 4 dman who consistently makes good positional decisions and is adept at moving the puck. The consistency is very important IMO because that wasn't a quality you could attribute to Gilbert.
Inconsistency has been this teams Achilles heel and players like Schultz help to change that equation.

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03-16-2012, 11:52 AM
  #559
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Good post.

Thats exactly what my eyes were seeing on the ice as well with Gilbert. Apparently actually watching the game carries little weight with some people these days.

Gilbert was as you described him...a top 4 dman who didn't do anything with excellence. Not a throw away player by any means especially with the sorry defence this team has but the time I have watched Schultz this season with the Wild and the Oilers they got exactly who I thought they were getting. A strong skating defensive top 4 dman who consistently makes good positional decisions and is adept at moving the puck. The consistency is very important IMO because that wasn't a quality you could attribute to Gilbert.
Inconsistency has been this teams Achilles heel and players like Schultz help to change that equation.
Thanks. I know I shouldn't be so snarky but, my god, surely the fact that all NHL teams employ scouts is some kind of clue that statistical analysis is a supplementary source of analysis - not a primary one.

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03-16-2012, 11:58 AM
  #560
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Thanks. I know I shouldn't be so snarky but, my god, surely the fact that all NHL teams employ scouts is some kind of clue that statistical analysis is a supplementary source of analysis - not a primary one.
That only makes sense and word is that the Oilers have staff in place that analyze advanced stats so that would suggest that they are in fact using that information to augment the decision making process.

Now I should mention that I am not a fan of the current Management team but I do think they got it right with the Schultz deal.

BTW...considering the arrogant tone of the post you were replying to I thought you were quite restrained in your response.

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03-16-2012, 12:49 PM
  #561
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You don't consider it the least bit dubious that you're resorting to a contrived notion of what would fail in a high school logic course to support your argument?

C'mon. You can raise better argument than the above to support your position.

As for the "better fit" the trouble with that line of thinking is its a fit to a team mired in second last place. It isn't a known fit to what a contending team here would look like. Whether its a good fit to stem some leaks on the titanic is irrelevant to a notion of progress. The question being is this player a fit in relation to where we have to be to approximate a competitive side going forward.

What indication is there of that?

As Misfit indicated earlier the Oilers haven't even improved in any meaningful way at the position. If anything they've given up an average 4mins of serviceable top4 D/night due to Gilbert consistently logging much more minutes and resulting in the team having to grant scrubs like Peckham and Potter more. Which isn't fixing any leaks.
Schultz is a defensive defenseman whose role is to anchor the defense when he's on the ice, so far he's been solid in that capacity, making very few mistakes and also contributing some offensively. He can play either side which gives us flexibility, it is not the players fault that the coach has overplayed the hell out of his pet Potter and underutilized him.

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Then explain why Minny is giving Gilbert even more minutes than we were giving him and about 5-6 more minutes/game than they were giving Schultz.

One thing missing in the equation is that Gilbert ALWAYS logged the top minutes on his team anywhere he played and is a thoroughbred from the perspective of eating minutes.

One way to look at it is with Gilberts 24minutes you get 5 more minutes of not having to look at players like Sutton, Peckham, Potter, Barker, now Whitney. The 19mins Schultz is logging is pretty much what you get. His minutes have regularly been lower than Gilberts.
Minny has traded off D, it'd be like if we moved Smid, etc. Besides after a 31 minute night Gilbert has played 23 and 21 minutes respectively in their last 2 games AND he gets PP time despite not being very good at it.

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QFT.

This is truth.
Yeah it was a great post, short and straight to the point.

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I not arguing this. If anythign I'm saying its early. My position matches Misfit. We didn't appreciable improve our D position. Its a lateral move imo.
In your eyes we didn't, it doesn't make it so. Petry takes up more minutes and Schultz becomes our 2nd anchor on defense with Smid. Now we need to add another puck mover, something that Gilbert never grew into.

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If Petry didn't bloom, where would Schultz be? Possibly in Gilberts spot.

Of course if Petry didn't improve they wouldn't have made the trade.
Petry is a stud, it didn't take him long to blow by Gilbert and make him expendable. Schultz is a veteran rock that can help break in and mentor the young D on this club.

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Thanks. I know I shouldn't be so snarky but, my god, surely the fact that all NHL teams employ scouts is some kind of clue that statistical analysis is a supplementary source of analysis - not a primary one.
Well the numbers said that RNH couldn't score at evens and couldn't score goals at this level so you know they must be right.....

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03-16-2012, 12:55 PM
  #562
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The whole argument has nothing to do with Gilbert and Schultz. We all know that some people's agenda is too dump on every move the teams management makes.
We have a Winner!!


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03-16-2012, 12:57 PM
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Then explain why Minny is giving Gilbert even more minutes than we were giving him and about 5-6 more minutes/game than they were giving Schultz.

One thing missing in the equation is that Gilbert ALWAYS logged the top minutes on his team anywhere he played and is a thoroughbred from the perspective of eating minutes.

One way to look at it is with Gilberts 24minutes you get 5 more minutes of not having to look at players like Sutton, Peckham, Potter, Barker, now Whitney. The 19mins Schultz is logging is pretty much what you get. His minutes have regularly been lower than Gilberts.

The 19 minutes we get from Schultz has been more solid and event free that the 24 minutes we got from Gilbert.

Gilbert gets more minutes now because Minny has squat all for defenceman now with Zanon, Zidlicky, Bruns and Schultz gone. Defence and goaltending used to be their hallmark. Now it is very obvious they are going into teardown and rebuild mode. They've been the worst team in the league since January.

I hear they have a big shopping mall like ours though, with a good selection of high quality stilletoes.

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03-16-2012, 01:00 PM
  #564
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The whole argument has nothing to do with Gilbert and Schultz. We all know that some people's agenda is too dump on every move the teams management makes.
Very true. Tambellini has made mistakes, but he could turn water into wine, and some here would complain about the table settings.

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03-16-2012, 04:44 PM
  #565
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Good post.

Thats exactly what my eyes were seeing on the ice as well with Gilbert. Apparently actually watching the game carries little weight with some people these days.

Gilbert was as you described him...a top 4 dman who didn't do anything with excellence. Not a throw away player by any means especially with the sorry defence this team has but the time I have watched Schultz this season with the Wild and the Oilers they got exactly who I thought they were getting. A strong skating defensive top 4 dman who consistently makes good positional decisions and is adept at moving the puck. The consistency is very important IMO because that wasn't a quality you could attribute to Gilbert.
Inconsistency has been this teams Achilles heel and players like Schultz help to change that equation.
With the exception that from the start I've maintained that one player move does nothing. Look at our record since we've had Schultz, look at the games we've lost and why we've lost. Schultz may well cut down on some of the mistakes through his own presence but even he's making them.

But the team will continue to endeavor to find losses as long as theres no buy in to system play. Or a team group that is even adept at system play. Starting with Dubnyk a player that years after the fact still hasn't learned simple communications with his D. Theres so many failboats on this club still that the achilles heel is still aching.

Its a bit of a joke to me that we trade for a guy like Schultz to shore up things defensively then we bring up guys like Omark to spring more leaks.

Maybe I don't understand the script. Or maybe there isn't one..

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03-16-2012, 04:57 PM
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Over the period of time that Schultz has played for the wild, they have owned the Oilers in the face, Gilbert has played more minutes to be sure but has something like half the NHL games played that Schultz does. Saying that look at who was playing defense in St.Paul over that stretch and look who was playing defense in Edmonton over that stretch. Gilbert played a lot more minutes because our defense frankly sucked the big one for a long time after Pronger left (and still does to some degree) whereas Minnesota had a pretty tight defensive core requiring a player like Schultz to not have to play 25-27 minutes a night.

I understand that Gilbert was playing much better this year, but how much of that can be attributed to Smid jacking his level up as well? and since the injury he received from Carcillo he was looking much as he had previous to this year. which had not been all that fantastic as our finishes in the last few years may attest.

I like Gilbert as much as the next Oilers fan, but he does not play for us anymore, no amount of breast beating and bemoaning the idiocy of management will change that. (you can still wear your Gilbert jersey) no one will mind.
Not sure what you're saying with the bolded because I don't want to assume but it could be a case of false attribution.

Myself I'd look at a well coached team with one of the best in the business, Lemaire at the helm teaching people like Schultz, and the whole team, how to play dedicated system play and team concept. Which is the reason Minny was beating our own version of chaos finding all these years.

I've singled out your post, don't take that personally, but because it reflects on the false attribution that imbues this whole player comparison.

You want to see something that was really impactful for a number of years precap in Minny? Look at Willie Mitchell playing solid rearguard in front of good ol Roli. Those two had it going in a big way, always wish we could have attracted Mitchell as well in 06. We would've won the SC.

Finally, and this should be the most depressing point, is Schultz had great learning from a great coach and good influences in a cohesive org from top to bottom that knew what it was doing and how to get there. Conversely Gilbert had the years of chaos from this organization that may have hindered his development. Theres a lot of different teams that would've utilized Gilbert better, and turned him into an even better player than he was when he left.

I worry sometimes how players that look really good here right now will look over the next few years here. Will they look better, the same, or worse?

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03-16-2012, 04:59 PM
  #567
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With the exception that from the start I've maintained that one player move does nothing. Look at our record since we've had Schultz, look at the games we've lost and why we've lost. Schultz may well cut down on some of the mistakes through his own presence but even he's making them.

But the team will continue to endeavor to find losses as long as theres no buy in to system play. Or a team group that is even adept at system play. Starting with Dubnyk a player that years after the fact still hasn't learned simple communications with his D. Theres so many failboats on this club still that the achilles heel is still aching.

Its a bit of a joke to me that we trade for a guy like Schultz to shore up things defensively then we bring up guys like Omark to spring more leaks.

Maybe I don't understand the script. Or maybe there isn't one..
I'd say since the season is lost it makes perfect sense to have Omark here. Make sue the team isn't going to let go a player that will haunt them and to try and raise his value to dump him in the summer.

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03-16-2012, 05:06 PM
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I'd say since the season is lost it makes perfect sense to have Omark here. Make sue the team isn't going to let go a player that will haunt them and to try and raise his value to dump him in the summer.
Sorry to go off topic here but what NHL teams would represent a market for Omark?

Superficially one would think that teams with a weak topsix could be interested. But most of those clubs aren't topheavy because they are low cap. Most of those clubs play system orientated hockey to survive out on the ice. Omark would be even less attractive to a club that has entertained the notion of system play. Especially considering he's not anywhere good enough to be the player you allow some carte blanche to.

I'm wondering what market there is. Winnipeg?

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03-16-2012, 05:12 PM
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Sorry to go off topic here but what NHL teams would represent a market for Omark?

Superficially one would think that teams with a weak topsix could be interested. But most of those clubs aren't topheavy because they are low cap. Most of those clubs play system orientated hockey to survive out on the ice. Omark would be even less attractive to a club that has entertained the notion of system play. Especially considering he's not anywhere good enough to be the player you allow some carte blanche to.

I'm wondering what market there is. Winnipeg?
I would say Columbus, please enlighten me system they play. If they played one on Wednesday then they are in even more of a world of hurt than the Oilers who didn't.

Regardless this isn't even about that. It's about asset management. Maybe they know he's not worth anything and are trying to raise his value. None of us have any idea if Tambo got calls over the deadline for him. Regardless it's about asset management and the season is lost. It makes perfect sense to me to have him up here.

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03-16-2012, 05:16 PM
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Schultz is a defensive defenseman whose role is to anchor the defense when he's on the ice, so far he's been solid in that capacity, making very few mistakes and also contributing some offensively. He can play either side which gives us flexibility, it is not the players fault that the coach has overplayed the hell out of his pet Potter and underutilized him.


In your eyes we didn't, it doesn't make it so. Petry takes up more minutes and Schultz becomes our 2nd anchor on defense with Smid. Now we need to add another puck mover, something that Gilbert never grew into.

Petry is a stud, it didn't take him long to blow by Gilbert and make him expendable. Schultz is a veteran rock that can help break in and mentor the young D on this club.
Its too early to evaluate where either Petry or Schultz will put us. Sure Petry looks like a stud now. What will he look like next year? This may just be learned cynicism on my part but what player here has ever shown any kind of linear progress? Petry and Schultz may look good in comparison to a team thats lousy enough to be in 29th place. Where would both fit on a team good enough to start making some noise. I don't see either as a shutdown guy on an elite team. I see them as top 4 guys on mid level teams.
Petry looks good. He's not a stud D. I think we're just quick to look at it this way due to not really seeing any elite D play here other than Pronger.

Hell its just one season since people here were going on about how good Peckham looked. Or not long since Whitney looked good.

The only contstant in our D corps has been change..you don't build a contending team that way. At some point you identify players that will be there for the gold rush and plan around that and develop strong team cohesion.

I still have no idea who this org thinks the backbone will be either on the backend or in goal. If Schultz or Petry is your best D, and your #1 is Dubnyk you're in a world of hurt.


Yeah I know, the same applies to Gilbert.

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03-16-2012, 05:18 PM
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Anyhow Replacement I'm still waiting for a reply to post 560 good sir.

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03-16-2012, 05:23 PM
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I would say Columbus, please enlighten me system they play. If they played one on Wednesday then they are in even more of a world of hurt than the Oilers who didn't.

Regardless this isn't even about that. It's about asset management. Maybe they know he's not worth anything and are trying to raise his value. None of us have any idea if Tambo got calls over the deadline for him. Regardless it's about asset management and the season is lost. It makes perfect sense to me to have him up here.
Woulda mentioned them but I've got some bad feelings about the whole Blue Jackets org.

I think its plug pulling time.

The word implode coming to mind. Or pathetic. I think they may become extinct before Phoenix. Even another top draft pick won't help that franchise. What a sorry waste of a Rick Nash career.

Jmo.

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03-16-2012, 05:26 PM
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Woulda mentioned them but I've got some bad feelings about the whole Blue Jackets org.

I think its plug pulling time.

The word implode coming to mind. Or pathetic. I think they may become extinct before Phoenix. Even another top draft pick won't help that franchise. What a sorry waste of a Rick Nash career.

Jmo.
Guess our opinions differ. Rick Nash is the definition of over rated. The only one wasting his career is himself and he was a darn good fit with the BJ's.

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03-16-2012, 05:29 PM
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Anyhow Replacement I'm still waiting for a reply to post 560 good sir.
It wasn't phrased by you to require a reply. I read it, you and others have made points that I look at and consider. I just enjoy the discussion on it and don't mind hearing others view points. For the most part its been pleasant.

I could say yep I guess.

Whenever I reply TOO much (which is my habit anyway) then people go:

"Oh stop it already, give it a rest"


Theres no win for an iconoclast.

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03-16-2012, 05:31 PM
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Country: Canada
Posts: 34,664
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Guess our opinions differ. Rick Nash is the definition of over rated. The only one wasting his career is himself and he was a darn good fit with the BJ's.
Put Rick Nash on an Olympic team or any Team Canada and I have a different view of his play. I can understand your point as its easy for me to think he's a drifting bum playing all his career in nowhere land. I agree that he must for some reason be OK with that. the moneys good, plus you only have to work 7mths of the year..My theory is he likes the regulr long holidays in the sun.

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