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[EDM/MIN] Tom Gilbert Traded For Nick Schultz - Part 2

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Old
03-16-2012, 05:31 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
It wasn't phrased by you to require a reply. I read it, you and others have made points that I look at and consider. I just enjoy the discussion on it and don't mind hearing others view points. For the most part its been pleasant.

I could say yep I guess.

Whenever I reply TOO much (which is my habit anyway) then people go:

"Oh stop it already, give it a rest"


Theres no win for an iconoclast.
No worries I just figured it was one of the more relevant posts to your non-refutable data that you provided. No worries bud , have a good weekend!

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03-16-2012, 05:36 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
With the exception that from the start I've maintained that one player move does nothing. Look at our record since we've had Schultz, look at the games we've lost and why we've lost. Schultz may well cut down on some of the mistakes through his own presence but even he's making them.
But the team will continue to endeavor to find losses as long as theres no buy in to system play. Or a team group that is even adept at system play. Starting with Dubnyk a player that years after the fact still hasn't learned simple communications with his D. Theres so many failboats on this club still that the achilles heel is still aching.

Its a bit of a joke to me that we trade for a guy like Schultz to shore up things defensively then we bring up guys like Omark to spring more leaks.

Maybe I don't understand the script. Or maybe there isn't one..


What an absolutely ridiculous way to look at this. Of course one trade typically doesn't vault your team up the standings, but you can't make 10 moves in a day either. Baby steps, you improve your team one bit at a time. To say making one move does nothing is simply to accept your fate and do absolutely nothing. And it IS doing something. We didn't bring this guy in here to fill the net. We brought him in to settle things down and give us a steady defensive presence. And he's done exactly that. Toruble is, he can't make up for Gagner or Hemsky's lack of production since he's been here. Yes, we'll miss Gilbert's 3 goals this year , but this team really needed to start getting some solid defencemen in here. And this is a great start.

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03-16-2012, 06:24 PM
  #578
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I can't believe you guys are still taking about this lol. It's clear to me so far that Schultz is a better defensive player than Gilbert. He even has an offensive game that I didn't know about.

He doesn't give the puck away as often as Gilbert and his puck moving skills are pretty much on par with Gilbert. What is there to complain about, especially since petry has made Gilbert redundant in a way

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03-16-2012, 10:44 PM
  #579
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Ah, gratuitous insults spiced with ageism. I like it. About what I would expect.
Let's take a step back and see what has happened here. You make an obnoxious comment about high school logic classes, and I attack your post. You respond by attacking me personally. I stoop to your level, and then you post the above, that you expected me to react that way. Either you are deliberately baiting me (and others of the same disposition) or you are actually oblivious to your own noxious behaviour.

In any case, I think it will be telling to see how Schultz and Gilbert are used by their respective teams from here on. Gilbert was used in a bigger role in Edmonton than Schultz was in Minnesota. If their careers continue in that way despite switching places, I think it will be obvious who is the better defenseman. If that is true, then even if you believe Schultz is the better "fit," then Edmonton should have gotten an additional piece in return to equilibrate the difference in value.

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03-17-2012, 12:06 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by The Rage View Post
Let's take a step back and see what has happened here. You make an obnoxious comment about high school logic classes, and I attack your post. You respond by attacking me personally. I stoop to your level, and then you post the above, that you expected me to react that way. Either you are deliberately baiting me (and others of the same disposition) or you are actually oblivious to your own noxious behaviour.

In any case, I think it will be telling to see how Schultz and Gilbert are used by their respective teams from here on. Gilbert was used in a bigger role in Edmonton than Schultz was in Minnesota. If their careers continue in that way despite switching places, I think it will be obvious who is the better defenseman. If that is true, then even if you believe Schultz is the better "fit," then Edmonton should have gotten an additional piece in return to equilibrate the difference in value.

The way Schultz is playing, you should consider us lucky we didn't have to shell out extra to get him.

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Old
03-17-2012, 10:32 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by The Rage View Post
Let's take a step back and see what has happened here. You make an obnoxious comment about high school logic classes, and I attack your post. You respond by attacking me personally. I stoop to your level, and then you post the above, that you expected me to react that way. Either you are deliberately baiting me (and others of the same disposition) or you are actually oblivious to your own noxious behaviour.

In any case, I think it will be telling to see how Schultz and Gilbert are used by their respective teams from here on. Gilbert was used in a bigger role in Edmonton than Schultz was in Minnesota. If their careers continue in that way despite switching places, I think it will be obvious who is the better defenseman.If that is true, then even if you believe Schultz is the better "fit," then Edmonton should have gotten an additional piece in return to equilibrate the difference in value.
And if the reverse is true, then what?

I would really sit down with behindthenet.ca, as you seem to hold it as the quintessential measurement of individual performance, and objectively look for the inherent flaw in using advanced stats as a measure of a single player's quality. (HINT: Hockey isn't baseball...)

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03-17-2012, 10:59 AM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
With the exception that from the start I've maintained that one player move does nothing. Look at our record since we've had Schultz, look at the games we've lost and why we've lost. Schultz may well cut down on some of the mistakes through his own presence but even he's making them.

But the team will continue to endeavor to find losses as long as theres no buy in to system play. Or a team group that is even adept at system play. Starting with Dubnyk a player that years after the fact still hasn't learned simple communications with his D. Theres so many failboats on this club still that the achilles heel is still aching.

Its a bit of a joke to me that we trade for a guy like Schultz to shore up things defensively then we bring up guys like Omark to spring more leaks.

Maybe I don't understand the script. Or maybe there isn't one..
I never suggested that the move to acquire Schultz in and of itself was going to solve the overall problem. I simply suggested it was a step in the right direction.
It is possible to acknowledge 1 good move by a GM who is doing a very poor job overall. Schultz was a good acquisition...hopefully its the start of a trend where Tambo makes more good moves than stupid ones.
I am not holding my breath on that one but I guess it is possible.

Overall this team is riddled with holes...thats one reason why a coaching change doesn't make sense. A coach doesn't compensate for the garbage the GM provides. If Renney doesn't return, the Oilers would be on their 4th coach with Tambo at the helm. When the team is unable to provide stability in a position as important as coaching then in IMO its just another example of a poor GM.

I guess with Schultz its a question of acknowledging the move as a positive (which it is) or holding my ground on Tambo and trying to find fault with everything he does (including the Schultz move) just so I can defend my position that he is a bad GM.
He is a bad GM but he did make a good move IMO.

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03-17-2012, 11:00 AM
  #583
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So Shultz isnt as good as Gilbert because Renney gives Potter Play more minutes than he should and because Minny has an absolutely brutal defense group, probably the worst in the league.

Using that same "logic" one could argue that Horcoff is one of the best players in the league because of the way his coach uses him.

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03-17-2012, 11:11 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
So Shultz isnt as good as Gilbert because Renney gives Potter Play more minutes than he should and because Minny has an absolutely brutal defense group, probably the worst in the league.

Using that same "logic" one could argue that Horcoff is one of the best players in the league because of the way his coach uses him.
Something tells me they would agree with you.

You may have opened up Pandora's box with that one.

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Old
03-17-2012, 01:43 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
So Shultz isnt as good as Gilbert because Renney gives Potter Play more minutes than he should and because Minny has an absolutely brutal defense group, probably the worst in the league.

Using that same "logic" one could argue that Horcoff is one of the best players in the league because of the way his coach uses him.
Great post. Schultz has been as advertised, while I'd like to see a little more piss and vinegar in his game, he plays a very solid positional game and gives us a rock defensively.

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03-17-2012, 01:52 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
With the exception that from the start I've maintained that one player move does nothing. Look at our record since we've had Schultz, look at the games we've lost and why we've lost. Schultz may well cut down on some of the mistakes through his own presence but even he's making them.

But the team will continue to endeavor to find losses as long as theres no buy in to system play. Or a team group that is even adept at system play. Starting with Dubnyk a player that years after the fact still hasn't learned simple communications with his D. Theres so many failboats on this club still that the achilles heel is still aching.

Its a bit of a joke to me that we trade for a guy like Schultz to shore up things defensively then we bring up guys like Omark to spring more leaks.

Maybe I don't understand the script. Or maybe there isn't one..
Who said that that move alone would catapult our team into becoming a winner? I doubt that anyone felt that way, however you can't make wholesale changes during the season unless those changes include picks/prospects, we are beyond that part of our rebuild as demonstrated by the Hemsky re-signing and the Schultz trade.

Schultz is a serviceable piece that brings a lot of positives: can play either side, is solid defensively and on the PK, is a veteran, has been in the playoffs, knows how to play his position and can be a mentor to our young D that will be coming up through the system. It sucks that one of your favorites got moved out, it really does for you, I can understand that, however you need to look at this without any emotional attachment.

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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its too early to evaluate where either Petry or Schultz will put us. Sure Petry looks like a stud now. What will he look like next year? This may just be learned cynicism on my part but what player here has ever shown any kind of linear progress? Petry and Schultz may look good in comparison to a team thats lousy enough to be in 29th place. Where would both fit on a team good enough to start making some noise. I don't see either as a shutdown guy on an elite team. I see them as top 4 guys on mid level teams.
Petry looks good. He's not a stud D. I think we're just quick to look at it this way due to not really seeing any elite D play here other than Pronger.

Hell its just one season since people here were going on about how good Peckham looked. Or not long since Whitney looked good.

The only contstant in our D corps has been change..you don't build a contending team that way. At some point you identify players that will be there for the gold rush and plan around that and develop strong team cohesion.

I still have no idea who this org thinks the backbone will be either on the backend or in goal. If Schultz or Petry is your best D, and your #1 is Dubnyk you're in a world of hurt.


Yeah I know, the same applies to Gilbert.
Petry will never be a Pronger, however his size, speed, passing, puck rushing, hitting, and his shot (if he can dial it in on net) combination is unlike anything that we've had in Oiler blue since Pronger left. Pronger was one of the best in the business when he was here, Petry's upside is TBD. That said if he can take one more step forward he will be a top pairing guy on a good team.

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03-17-2012, 02:02 PM
  #587
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Petry reminds me a lot of Mironov, with better defensive abilities.

I hope Klefbom can be like Hamrlik.

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03-17-2012, 02:03 PM
  #588
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Inconsistency has been this teams Achilles heel
Truer words have never been spoken.

If you had to define the one thing that differentiates the Oilers from all those teams above them in the standings, it's consistency. Defensive consistency, in particular. They can flash in the pan as good as anyone, but 82 game seasons are their weakness.

Any move to address consistency on this team is a good one.

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03-17-2012, 02:11 PM
  #589
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Petry reminds me a lot of Mironov, with better defensive abilities.

I hope Klefbom can be like Hamrlik.
Too bad Petry doesn't seem to have a lot of accuracy on his shot. He has a bomb, but blasts it wide most of the time.

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03-17-2012, 02:12 PM
  #590
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Too bad Petry doesn't seem to have a lot of accuracy on his shot. He has a bomb, but blasts it wide most of the time.
I think Petry shoots for tips a lot of the time. Mironov didn't care and just blasted it on goal every single chance he got.

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03-17-2012, 03:17 PM
  #591
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Great post. Schultz has been as advertised, while I'd like to see a little more piss and vinegar in his game, he plays a very solid positional game and gives us a rock defensively.
I'd say he has been better than advertised. I had no idea he could move the puck and jump into the rush as well as he does.

I was kind of upset when I first heard of the trade, but Schultz has been exactly what the doctor ordered for this team. Now if Katz and his scientists could find a way to clone him we would be in pretty good shape on the back end.

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03-17-2012, 03:20 PM
  #592
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I think Petry shoots for tips a lot of the time. Mironov didn't care and just blasted it on goal every single chance he got.
I remember Smitty ducking for his life more than a few times when Bobo would wind up.

Petry reminds me of a Niiniima/Hamrlik hybrid.

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03-17-2012, 03:56 PM
  #593
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I remember Smytty actually getting smashed in the face when Bobo wound up.

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03-17-2012, 09:14 PM
  #594
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Petry reminds me a lot of Mironov, with better defensive abilities.

I hope Klefbom can be like Hamrlik.
Petry doesn't have a good buddy like Kovalenko on the team.

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03-18-2012, 01:31 AM
  #595
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I remember Smytty actually getting smashed in the face when Bobo wound up.
Didn't he break Smyth's jaw with a shot?

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03-18-2012, 02:22 AM
  #596
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Didn't he break Smyth's jaw with a shot?
Pronger? Playoffs? maybe that was a different time

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03-18-2012, 02:48 AM
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Didn't he break Smyth's jaw with a shot?
Yeah, in Dallas, 1998-99 season.

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03-18-2012, 03:06 AM
  #598
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Petry reminds me a lot of Mironov, with better defensive abilities.

I hope Klefbom can be like Hamrlik.
I don't think Petry has the goal scoring ability of Bobo. His shot isn't as good and he doesn't know how to use it as well.

Frick what I wouldn't give right now to have Mironov/Niinamaa/Hamrlik in their primes right now on this team. That was a solid top 4 with Tom Poti thrown in there as a rookie.

Tom Poti looked like such a stud in his first couple of years.

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03-18-2012, 03:16 AM
  #599
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I don't think Petry has the goal scoring ability of Bobo. His shot isn't as good and he doesn't know how to use it as well.

Frick what I wouldn't give right now to have Mironov/Niinamaa/Hamrlik in their primes right now on this team. That was a solid top 4 with Tom Poti thrown in there as a rookie.

Tom Poti looked like such a stud in his first couple of years.
Looking back, the Oilers were on track to be a very competitive team; never mind this 8th place BS. If only Sather had, had the money to keep his team together.

Damn.

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03-18-2012, 10:35 AM
  #600
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Does anyone really miss plays like this

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?...id=sb:boxscore

Click on the last goal by Carolina. Not sure how to post it directly.

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