and I'd still rather have Nuge out there in our own end. He's the complete package like no other rookie
Complete agree. I had a buddy over to watch the Phoenix game, and he doesn't really watch hockey anymore, but I pointed out Nuge to him. I said watch how he skates, and his positioning. I also said tell me who he reminds you of. The guy said Gretzky, after about five minutes. Then I told my buddy that Nuge was PPG guy as a rookie, supposed to be to small to play the game, etc. etc. etc. He said yeah, thats really uncanny, because that was all the knocks against Gretz too. He's no Oiler fan, but even he could see that Nuge plays the game differently than most, and alot like Gretz did.
RNH also scores 50% of his points on the PP. He was doing double duty on the PP for quite some time as well. That has to factor into the equation. Landeskog is getting about 22% of his points off the PP.
I'm so tired of hearing this trotted out by other fans.
RNH doesn't sit on the power-play and grab cheap points. When he's in the lineup, the PP goes through him. He runs the whole damn thing. The gameplan when he's out there really does seem to be, 'get Hopkins the puck'.
Early on in the year, I suggested that we (Oil fans) keep a tally of how many times RNH puts a tape-to-tape cross-ice pass right through the PK box. I wish we had done that because I'm sure its over two dozen by now.
He simply doesn't get enough credit for this. Yes, he may get more PP time than Landeskog but when Landeskog is out there, he's just another player. Landeskog may kill penalties, but when he does, he's just another player. RNH is running the best PP in the league.
Now, I know you may say that the PP did fine without him and that's true. But the fact that the #1 PP team in the league defers to him as soon as he's back in the lineup also says a lot.
I'm so tired of hearing this trotted out by other fans.
RNH doesn't sit on the power-play and grab cheap points. When he's in the lineup, the PP goes through him. He runs the whole damn thing. The gameplan when he's out there really does seem to be, 'get Hopkins the puck'.
Early on in the year, I suggested that we (Oil fans) keep a tally of how many times RNH puts a tape-to-tape cross-ice pass right through the PK box. I wish we had done that because I'm sure its over two dozen by now.
He simply doesn't get enough credit for this. Yes, he may get more PP time than Landeskog but when Landeskog is out there, he's just another player. Landeskog may kill penalties, but when he does, he's just another player. RNH is running the best PP in the league.
Now, I know you may say that the PP did fine without him and that's true. But the fact that the #1 PP team in the league defers to him as soon as he's back in the lineup also says a lot.
here here, well said. it is dumb really. I mean you may as well just not count power play points, I mean since they are just easy meaningless points any way right? silly argument.
I'm so tired of hearing this trotted out by other fans.
RNH doesn't sit on the power-play and grab cheap points. When he's in the lineup, the PP goes through him. He runs the whole damn thing. The gameplan when he's out there really does seem to be, 'get Hopkins the puck'.
Early on in the year, I suggested that we (Oil fans) keep a tally of how many times RNH puts a tape-to-tape cross-ice pass right through the PK box. I wish we had done that because I'm sure its over two dozen by now.
He simply doesn't get enough credit for this. Yes, he may get more PP time than Landeskog but when Landeskog is out there, he's just another player. Landeskog may kill penalties, but when he does, he's just another player. RNH is running the best PP in the league.
Now, I know you may say that the PP did fine without him and that's true. But the fact that the #1 PP team in the league defers to him as soon as he's back in the lineup also says a lot.
No where did I say he was getting cheap points. Just the opposite...I fully agree that the PP runs through him. My point was he gets a lot of time on the PP, and therefore a lot of points from it - 50% of them.
It is my opinion that points come easier on the PP. You have a distinct advantage with one less opposing player on the ice.
To the other poster...
You don't think his performance was dropping off in December? I believe it was expected, and talked about, that he was tapering off due to the grind of the season. With such a hot start his stats were inflated (I use that word cautiously). I also believe that teams around the league really started to focus in on him. He was getting a lot less room out there.
Before he had is injury troubles, Nuge was playing at a ridiculous level for a rookie. Hopefully he can shake the rust, and get back to that level again.
No where did I say he was getting cheap points. Just the opposite...I fully agree that the PP runs through him. My point was he gets a lot of time on the PP, and therefore a lot of points from it - 50% of them.
It is my opinion that points come easier on the PP. You have a distinct advantage with one less opposing player on the ice.
To the other poster...
You don't think his performance was dropping off in December? I believe it was expected, and talked about, that he was tapering off due to the grind of the season. With such a hot start his stats were inflated (I use that word cautiously). I also believe that teams around the league really started to focus in on him. He was getting a lot less room out there.
The next 20 games will be interesting.
Well, perhaps you'll have to explain the difference for me between 'cheap' and 'easy' points because it seems to me that they mean same thing. Either way, you're devaluing RNH's production because somehow PP points don't mean as much.
Your second point, again, is unfairly devaluing RNH to the benefit of other players. First of all, that stretch in December represented the toughest part of the schedule for the Oilers. Was he permanently tapering off, or just struggling through a particularly brutal run of games? He shouldn't be rewarded or critisized too heavily for 'what if's', IMO.
Secondly, if RNH's stats are inflated because of his hot start then so are Landeskog's because of his current hot streak (which is still a level below RNH at his best). Why does one get more value than the other? Particularily since even a 'cooled off' RNH is still putting up numbers comparable to the very best anyone else can mustered.
RNH shouldn't be penalized for being unable to maintain a level of production above what any other rookie has even come close to approaching. Especially when, like I said, he's matching everyone else regardless.
yeah exactly... nuge is back at a PPG pace since coming... sure it's only been 3 games, but 2g, 1a (none of them being "cheap" points either) is pretty darn impressive for a rookie after missing so much time... he hasn't missed a step
yeah exactly... nuge is back at a PPG pace since coming... sure it's only been 3 games, but 2g, 1a (none of them being "cheap" points either) is pretty darn impressive for a rookie after missing so much time... he hasn't missed a step
Could've had another couple points too as he rang one off the post last game and had a great opportunity in the Winnipeg game but accepted the puck awkwardly.
No where did I say he was getting cheap points. Just the opposite...I fully agree that the PP runs through him. My point was he gets a lot of time on the PP, and therefore a lot of points from it - 50% of them.
It is my opinion that points come easier on the PP. You have a distinct advantage with one less opposing player on the ice.
To the other poster...
You don't think his performance was dropping off in December? I believe it was expected, and talked about, that he was tapering off due to the grind of the season. With such a hot start his stats were inflated (I use that word cautiously). I also believe that teams around the league really started to focus in on him. He was getting a lot less room out there.
The next 20 games will be interesting.
Landeskog had some piss poor stretches this season as well, if not for his recent roll he wouldn't even be in the conversation despite his strong all around game. Yes RNH had a dry spell, it happens to everyone, the difference is that the start that he had was gaudy, check out my blog, I had a list of the top straight from the draft rookie scorers in 5 game segments up until RNH got hurt. He was at a Crosby clip some of the time, better than Patrick Kane, and far better than Jeff Skinner, we're talking the 3 top 18 year old rookies since the lock-out, not too shabby. You might want to check your tone a bit, Landeskog is a fine player, of that there is no doubt, but coming here and selling short what RNH has been able to accomplish this year does nothing to help your position or your credibility on the subject.
__________________ Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Landeskog has since gone on to score 25 points in 30 games, most of that time RNH has been out, had he played even 10 more games than he had it wouldn't even be a race unless you hold +/-, hits, and shots on goal in a huge light.
He's a really good young player, but this BS of **** talking RNH's accomplishments and incredible rookie season is
Well this thread went downhill... I was one of those arguming that at this moment Landeskog has the edge over RNH for the Calder because in the Calder race GP doesn't matter (and if anyone here thinks it does then I ask again: give examples).
That said, I'd take RNH over Landeskog any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I don't see how anyone has really questioned RNH's talent and production this year.
Last point, I think many see Landeskog as having the edge right now BUT I don't see anyone (except maybe COL fans) who think this is in anyway over. Personally I think he can come back and surpass both Landeskog and Henrique but I am just saying it's not going to be a walk in the park. I'd love for him to just blow by the rest of them but I think it'll be tougher than that.
Sorry, maybe I'm ranting but it's really depressing seeing a thread that is discussing 2-3 young talented players, who all are having great seasons, ending up in posters going after them negatively. I for one am happy to see so many talented young players this year and it's always fun when any race (Calder or other) is tight.
Landeskog had some piss poor stretches this season as well, if not for his recent roll he wouldn't even be in the conversation despite his strong all around game. Yes RNH had a dry spell, it happens to everyone, the difference is that the start that he had was gaudy, check out my blog, I had a list of the top straight from the draft rookie scorers in 5 game segments up until RNH got hurt. He was at a Crosby clip some of the time, better than Patrick Kane, and far better than Jeff Skinner, we're talking the 3 top 18 year old rookies since the lock-out, not too shabby. You might want to check your tone a bit, Landeskog is a fine player, of that there is no doubt, but coming here and selling short what RNH has been able to accomplish this year does nothing to help your position or your credibility on the subject.
Wow BBO....check my tone? What tone would that be? The tone that may have a slightly different view point than you? No where did I say he was a bad player. The thread is about who gets the Calder. My opinion is that as of right now it should go to Landeskog. It's not like I'm the only guy in the world that thinks this way.
I made a few point, which I considered to be fair, and I get this from you? RNH is an incredible talent, he will be a star in this league for years to come. But he doesn't compete in a vacuum, there are other rookies out there that are really good to.
I kept it very civil and respectful, I am on the Oilers board, I get it. But to call me out about my tone? Have a look in the mirror.
Landeskog had some piss poor stretches this season as well, if not for his recent roll he wouldn't even be in the conversation despite his strong all around game. Yes RNH had a dry spell, it happens to everyone, the difference is that the start that he had was gaudy, check out my blog, I had a list of the top straight from the draft rookie scorers in 5 game segments up until RNH got hurt. He was at a Crosby clip some of the time, better than Patrick Kane, and far better than Jeff Skinner, we're talking the 3 top 18 year old rookies since the lock-out, not too shabby. You might want to check your tone a bit, Landeskog is a fine player, of that there is no doubt, but coming here and selling short what RNH has been able to accomplish this year does nothing to help your position or your credibility on the subject.
When was this? Most Avs fans thought Landeskog was having a fantastic season with pretty much no bad game even when he wasn't scoring at the pace he is now due to his physical play and amazing two-way game. Did you come to your conclusion from watching him play or just by going through the game log and assuming that a game without points is a poor game?
As for the Calder, who cares? It's just the beginning of wonderful careers for both. They will eclipse what they are doing this year next year.
Well, perhaps you'll have to explain the difference for me between 'cheap' and 'easy' points because it seems to me that they mean same thing. Either way, you're devaluing RNH's production because somehow PP points don't mean as much.
Your second point, again, is unfairly devaluing RNH to the benefit of other players. First of all, that stretch in December represented the toughest part of the schedule for the Oilers. Was he permanently tapering off, or just struggling through a particularly brutal run of games? He shouldn't be rewarded or critisized too heavily for 'what if's', IMO.
Secondly, if RNH's stats are inflated because of his hot start then so are Landeskog's because of his current hot streak (which is still a level below RNH at his best). Why does one get more value than the other? Particularily since even a 'cooled off' RNH is still putting up numbers comparable to the very best anyone else can mustered.
RNH shouldn't be penalized for being unable to maintain a level of production above what any other rookie has even come close to approaching. Especially when, like I said, he's matching everyone else regardless.
I have this discussion a lot with my buddy that is an Oiler fan. He sees it like you....and we have gone around and around with regard to the subject.
It is my opinion that having the man advantage is just that....an advantage. Therefore points that come on the powerplay, while no less impressive, are easier to come by than points 5v5.
I'm not saying that is cut in stone....I am saying that it is my opinion.
This is the way I see it. When you watch Landskog you see a guy playing in all scenarios of the game. 5v5, PP, PK, he even dropped the mitts last night....he plays an all around game. I like that in a player, it tells me that he has a complete game.
I am NOT saying that RNH isn't fun to watch...as I have said many times in this thread, I love the kid, would love to have him on my team. Why does it have to be, "you think Landeskog should win the Calder so RHN is ****!?!?!?!". No.....RNH is awesome. I just think Landeskog is awesomer.
If you are watching the games, I think that RNH is clearly better than the other candidates. On most nights he has played, he has usually been the best player on the ice in my mind. Well he and Eberle anyways. I just find that the vision and skill of RNH is unreal, and far exceeds most players in the NHL. Some of the stuff he does is mind boggling. I think RNH would have similar output playing with less skilled forwards (as long as they aren't Hordichuk and Smyth), where as someone like Henrique I just don't see him doing as much.
Landeskog has since gone on to score 25 points in 30 games, most of that time RNH has been out, had he played even 10 more games than he had it wouldn't even be a race unless you hold +/-, hits, and shots on goal in a huge light.
I don't quite follow your logic. If Landeskog takes them to the playoffs and produces during those playoffs he may be considered? That seems to be some pretty lofty standards. On the other hand all RNH has to do is close out the season, playing stress free, easy minutes (compared to what Landeskog is playing) to obtain the Calder.
I hear PPG pace being tossed around a lot in this thread. Looking at RNH's stats he was on a tear earlier, but starting to drop off in December - October 1.00ppg, November 1.21ppg, December 0.60ppg. The last 9 games before he was hurt he was on a 0.33ppg pace.
I believe he was getting burned out. No real big surprise. A lot of games for a frame that size (that is not a knock...he is small it's no secret). Got a month off and he is back to his PPG pace...albeit a very small sample size. Would he of kept up the PPG pace or would he continued to trend down? Who knows. But to say he would have continued to score at the ppg pace is a bit optimistic.
RNH also scores 50% of his points on the PP. He was doing double duty on the PP for quite some time as well. That has to factor into the equation. Landeskog is getting about 22% of his points off the PP.
Landeskog also is playing tougher minutes than RNH. All of this will be taken into consideration for the vote. While he RNH is certainly in the hunt for the award....I think it's a bit "homerish" to say that if he wasn't hurt it wouldn't even be a question that he wins.
It's been said several times that Landeskog is the more complete hockey player. I think that gives him the edge for the Calder.
Of course all that said....I would kill to have RNH on my team!!
Starting out with "homerish" when talking about another teams fans, I can't speak for HF Oil as a whole, but I don't think that I'd be too out of line to say that had RNH not been injured not once but twice that the points race would've already been decided or damn close to it. Call it what you want, IMO it is very presumptive on your part that RNH would've fallen off the map and continued to have his ppg average drop to the level that it was in his last 9 games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugginThePost
No where did I say he was getting cheap points. Just the opposite...I fully agree that the PP runs through him. My point was he gets a lot of time on the PP, and therefore a lot of points from it - 50% of them.
It is my opinion that points come easier on the PP. You have a distinct advantage with one less opposing player on the ice.
To the other poster...
You don't think his performance was dropping off in December? I believe it was expected, and talked about, that he was tapering off due to the grind of the season. With such a hot start his stats were inflated (I use that word cautiously). I also believe that teams around the league really started to focus in on him. He was getting a lot less room out there.
The next 20 games will be interesting.
So then why does Landeskog not have more points there? If it's so much easier why is it that he is spotting RNH a lead there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGu
Well this thread went downhill... I was one of those arguming that at this moment Landeskog has the edge over RNH for the Calder because in the Calder race GP doesn't matter (and if anyone here thinks it does then I ask again: give examples).
That said, I'd take RNH over Landeskog any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I don't see how anyone has really questioned RNH's talent and production this year. [/
Last point, I think many see Landeskog as having the edge right now BUT I don't see anyone (except maybe COL fans) who think this is in anyway over. Personally I think he can come back and surpass both Landeskog and Henrique but I am just saying it's not going to be a walk in the park. I'd love for him to just blow by the rest of them but I think it'll be tougher than that.
Sorry, maybe I'm ranting but it's really depressing seeing a thread that is discussing 2-3 young talented players, who all are having great seasons, ending up in posters going after them negatively. I for one am happy to see so many talented young players this year and it's always fun when any race (Calder or other) is tight.
This is my issue, right now I could see a case for Landeskog, however the season isn't over yet, we could see any number of rookies turn it on and win besides Landeskog and RNH. My other issue is the assumption made by others that RNH wouldn't be the top point getter at this point when he was far and away the top dog when he was hurt. The idea that he would've fallen off the map is wishful thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugginThePost
Wow BBO....check my tone? What tone would that be? The tone that may have a slightly different view point than you? No where did I say he was a bad player. The thread is about who gets the Calder. My opinion is that as of right now it should go to Landeskog. It's not like I'm the only guy in the world that thinks this way.
I made a few point, which I considered to be fair, and I get this from you? RNH is an incredible talent, he will be a star in this league for years to come. But he doesn't compete in a vacuum, there are other rookies out there that are really good to.
I kept it very civil and respectful, I am on the Oilers board, I get it. But to call me out about my tone? Have a look in the mirror.
Coming here and calling others that don't share your opinion "homerish" is a good start. As for who would win the Calder right now? WHO CARES? Last that I checked it isn't handed out right now is it? I never said that Landeskog or any other rookie isn't very good, I actually like Landeskog, and I think that he'll be a very good player. We'll see how everything pans out, hopefully everyone stays healthy and gives their best and the cards will fall where they may at that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
When was this? Most Avs fans thought Landeskog was having a fantastic season with pretty much no bad game even when he wasn't scoring at the pace he is now due to his physical play and amazing two-way game. Did you come to your conclusion from watching him play or just by going through the game log and assuming that a game without points is a poor game?
As for the Calder, who cares? It's just the beginning of wonderful careers for both. They will eclipse what they are doing this year next year.
In watching him play and watching the score sheets. Earlier in the year he wasn't nearly as confident as he is now, however we have an Avs fan pointing out a poor production period of RNH's rookie season and saying that it may have continued. RNH and Landeskog are prime examples of being too good for that to happen to them. The Calder would've been nice, I won't be one of these sore losers if RNH loses and say that I don't care. That said IMO had RNH not gotten hurt, it would be a one horse race and that horse's name is not Gabriel.
In watching him play and watching the score sheets. Earlier in the year he wasn't nearly as confident as he is now, however we have an Avs fan pointing out a poor production period of RNH's rookie season and saying that it may have continued. RNH and Landeskog are prime examples of being too good for that to happen to them. The Calder would've been nice, I won't be one of these sore losers if RNH loses and say that I don't care. That said IMO had RNH not gotten hurt, it would be a one horse race and that horse's name is not Gabriel.
I don't think HugginThePost is an Avs fan.
In October and November Avs third line was Landeskog-O'Reilly-Winnik. They started most of their shifts in the defensive zone and their job was to shut down the opposition. So the lack of production doesn't have anything to do with poor play or lack of confidence. They were not being used to provide offense.
Late November, because Duchene/Stastny/Jones/Hejduk struggled to provide offense, they switched Winnik with Hejduk and started using the O'Reilly line as a scoring line and the production increased.
I don't think playing excellent on a third line is having a "piss poor stretch".
No doubt Nugent-Hopkins would have had most points and would be the favorite to the Calder had he not been injured since the award almost always goes to the forward that scores the most points. The only reason Landeskogs +/-, hitting and defense has entered the discussion is because he is close to the others in points. If he wasn't, no one would care that he excels in those areas of the game, as far as the Calder is concerned.
In October and November Avs third line was Landeskog-O'Reilly-Winnik. They started most of their shifts in the defensive zone and their job was to shut down the opposition. So the lack of production doesn't have anything to do with poor play or lack of confidence. They were not being used to provide offense.
Late November, because Duchene/Stastny/Jones/Hejduk struggled to provide offense, they switched Winnik with Hejduk and started using the O'Reilly line as a scoring line and the production increased.
I don't think playing excellent on a third line is having a "piss poor stretch".
No doubt Nugent-Hopkins would have had most points and would be the favorite to the Calder had he not been injured since the award almost always goes to the forward that scores the most points. The only reason Landeskogs +/-, hitting and defense has entered the discussion is because he is close to the others in points. If he wasn't, no one would care that he excels in those areas of the game.
I didn't see as much offensively from Lando earlier TBH, maybe it also had to do with ROR stepping it up as well, he was on the PP pretty early on from what I recall as well. I do agree that if points are close that the intangibles definitely come into play.
