Richards was an overhyped player who isn't even in the top 20 or maybe 30 at forward, where there's a glut of scorers. Suter is a top 5 defenseman in an time when top tier defenseman are disappearing.
Just using him as an example because he was the most pursued free agent last summer and most people overestimated the amount he would sign for.
What I would like to see the Wings do is offer Suter 13 years for 100 million dollars (makes him and his agent happy, weight the back half appropriately, his cap hit is underneath 8 million) and Semin 6 years 30 million (Don't know if he wants to play for a 5 million dollar cap hit, you could also do 3 year 18 million, I think he jumps at the security and opportunity to play with Datsyuk) realize people will hate that but I think it realistically gets both of them here. It gives Datsyuk the Russian teammate some people think he is asking for as a joke, but he brings up enough even with his humor to know he wants. It also helps allow for Filppula's and Howard's raises that are coming. Signing both Parise and Suter doesn't allow this unless the cap continues skyward, something Owners have almost promised will not happen. Should Lidstrom chose to come back next year we still have money or at least the ability to make it happen.
What I would like to see the Wings do is offer Suter 13 years for 100 million dollars (makes him and his agent happy, weight the back half appropriately, his cap hit is underneath 8 million) and Semin 6 years 30 million (Don't know if he wants to play for a 5 million dollar cap hit, you could also do 3 year 18 million, I think he jumps at the security and opportunity to play with Datsyuk) realize people will hate that but I think it realistically gets both of them here. It gives Datsyuk the Russian teammate some people think he is asking for as a joke, but he brings up enough even with his humor to know he wants. It also helps allow for Filppula's and Howard's raises that are coming. Signing both Parise and Suter doesn't allow this unless the cap continues skyward, something Owners have almost promised will not happen. Should Lidstrom chose to come back next year we still have money or at least the ability to make it happen.
I would rather use cap hit than give out 13 year deal.
Semin, I wanted him for a deadline rental to see if he will work out before thinking about re-signing him. I would be kind of worried to give him a long term deal.
True, but I'm not saying he won't get more than Doughty, just that he's not worth it.
Yeah I agree he will get a massive deal that's probably worth more than his value but that's what you have to do in July 1st. Not enough talent and a lot of teams fighting for him.
Only way to get good value contract is
1. Draft the player
2. Shop at bargain bin and hope for the best
I would rather use cap hit than give out 13 year deal.
Semin, I wanted him for a deadline rental to see if he will work out before thinking about re-signing him. I would be kind of worried to give him a long term deal.
Didn't say anybody else would like it, but just what I would do. I don't think Suter turns down that deal from Detroit is a part of it. We win and hit the magic number on the contract. I understand concerns over both, but I truly believe in both players. In my opinion it is more dicey giving out the deal to Semin, but that is a nice cap hit for a guy of his talent. Really this is hard to do without understanding the terms of the new CBA anyway.
What I would like to see the Wings do is offer Suter 13 years for 100 million dollars (makes him and his agent happy, weight the back half appropriately, his cap hit is underneath 8 million) and Semin 6 years 30 million (Don't know if he wants to play for a 5 million dollar cap hit, you could also do 3 year 18 million, I think he jumps at the security and opportunity to play with Datsyuk) realize people will hate that but I think it realistically gets both of them here. It gives Datsyuk the Russian teammate some people think he is asking for as a joke, but he brings up enough even with his humor to know he wants. It also helps allow for Filppula's and Howard's raises that are coming. Signing both Parise and Suter doesn't allow this unless the cap continues skyward, something Owners have almost promised will not happen. Should Lidstrom chose to come back next year we still have money or at least the ability to make it happen.
I like this, but I'd rather give Semin a 1 year deal for 5-6M, and see how he does, then opt to resign him for a longer term if he shows up and plays. I'd rather not waste 5M cap space for 6 years if the player doesn't show up and play.
If you think we sound clueless we're probably on the right track then.
For an actual dose of reality take Doughty's deal and subtract around a million.
Doughty is younger, has a higher offensive ceiling, has already doubled Suters career best in goals, and fits our system better.
I like Suter a lot, and like I said I'd overpay for him, but he's not more valuable than Doughty IMO.
Wait. Let me get this straight. You have a choice between Suter and Doughty, identical contracts, and you take Doughty?? Bwahahahaha. Sorry. Everyone here is laughing pretty hard right now. Love the rationale about Doughty scoring more goals too. Thanks. Just for a second you made me very grateful that Holland is in charge...
I like this, but I'd rather give Semin a 1 year deal for 5-6M, and see how he does, then opt to resign him for a longer term if he shows up and plays. I'd rather not waste 5M cap space for 6 years if the player doesn't show up and play.
I would love this. But not sure Semin will sign another 1 year deal. There has to be someone who will offer him a long term contract
Wait. Let me get this straight. You have a choice between Suter and Doughty, identical contracts, and you take Doughty?? Bwahahahaha. Sorry. Everyone here is laughing pretty hard right now. Love the rationale about Doughty scoring more goals too. Thanks. Just for a second you made me very grateful that Holland is in charge...
Even with with the dripping sarcasm I never thought you would be able to type those words KB.
Or you even thinking that actually for a second with honesty and admitting it.
Just to clarify... I would pay a lot for Suter. I would pay anywhere up to 8 million with Suter and be fine with it.
But I do not actually think he will end up signing for that much, I think people are too high with with their estimations.
Just for a reference point. Shea Weber is the highest paid defenseman in the league at a 7.5 million caphit. Paying 8-8.5 to Suter would put him in the company of Malkin, Crosby, and Eric staal. That is pretty elite company for Ryan Suter. I also do not believe he is a top 5 defenseman in the league currently. I'd say he's top 10 for sure, but I don't know about top 5.
In a perfect world I would love him at 8 years and 60 million, I just think we have to get him, make sure of it and throw our best offer on the table. Since the point of the OP is what are you willing to live with my absolute max is 13 years 100 million, I don't see him walking away from an Original six team with two decades of commitment to winning if we offer that, it will beat everyone else.
I would love this. But not sure Semin will sign another 1 year deal. There has to be someone who will offer him a long term contract
You have a point, but who knows, maybe KH can pull some magic and make it happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the banks
Suter is twice the defensive player that Doughty is and equally capable offensively
Plus Doughty's been struggling the last couple of seasons, where as Suter's remained strong both defensively and offensively. I'd rather overpay for Suter than Doughty anyday.
Just to clarify... I would pay a lot for Suter. I would pay anywhere up to 8 million with Suter and be fine with it.
But I do not actually think he will end up signing for that much, I think people are too high with with their estimations.
Just for a reference point. Shea Weber is the highest paid defenseman in the league at a 7.5 million caphit. Paying 8-8.5 to Suter would put him in the company of Malkin, Crosby, and Eric staal. That is pretty elite company for Ryan Suter. I also do not believe he is a top 5 defenseman in the league currently. I'd say he's top 10 for sure, but I don't know about top 5.
You could be right, he could easily sign around 6.5~7.5M range. In the end it's his choice.
Just one big difference between Suter and those guys you mentioned is that those guys didn't sign their deal on July 1st as UFA. They all resigned with their teams. If Suter hits FA, Suter's agent probably doesn't even have to do anything other than just update the current highest offer and watch as teams tear each other apart
Suter is twice the defensive player that Doughty is and equally capable offensively
This is simply not true.
Doughty is 22 and has already had a season where he scored 16 goals in a season and 59 points. Suter's best year is 8 goals and 45 points. When Suter was 22 he was still playing college hockey at Minnesota. Doughty is already a better offensive player and he still has a lot of room to develop into a scary good defenseman if he wants to. Doughty actually has more career goals than Suter in 226 less games.
Weber got 7.5 in arbitration. He bases the deal off of the player and precedent. When you have a league hungry for a top five defender they're going to overpay. The arbitration isn't an overpayment. Weber could probably get more, too. But that's how it is. Cap goes up, demand goes up, prices go up.
Doughty is 22 and has already had a season where he scored 16 goals in a season and 59 points. Suter's best year is 8 goals and 45 points. When Suter was 22 he was still playing college hockey at Minnesota. Doughty is already a better offensive player and he still has a lot of room to develop into a scary good defenseman if he wants to. Doughty actually has more career goals than Suter in 226 less games.
Man, if only scoring goals was the key component of defenseman.....Mike Green would have three Norris Trophies
lol@simply. He's pretty accurate. Doughty looks a little overhyped right now but Suter is perpetually underrated. Suter plays lock down D. Doughty doesn't look like he's able to do that. Offensively, you could make an argument but I'm not looking for Mike Green or Eric Karlsson, I'm looking for Nick Lidstrom or Zdeno Chara.
Man, if only scoring goals was the key component of defenseman.....Mike Green would have three Norris Trophies
You said Suter was as equally capable offensively as Drew Doughty. I disagree, and consider goals a good indicator of offense. Doughty has also had more assists in a year, and can be more of a game changer offensively. Leave your sarcastic comments to yourself.
Edit: Sorry I meant to bold the part about Suter being equal offensively. I totally 100% agree Suter is much better defensively than Doughty.
Doughty is 22 and has already had a season where he scored 16 goals in a season and 59 points. Suter's best year is 8 goals and 45 points. When Suter was 22 he was still playing college hockey at Minnesota. Doughty is already a better offensive player and he still has a lot of room to develop into a scary good defenseman if he wants to. Doughty actually has more career goals than Suter in 226 less games.
Suter went to Wisconsin, saying he went to Minnesota is pretty sac-religious as there is probably no team he hates more in the entire world. Doughty hasn't been nearly as consistent he takes chances to create those points you are talking about and sacrifices his defense to do so. Doughty might become better than Suter, he certainly looked like he would when he was 20, but he hasn't taken the steps since to believe he will. The fact he will remain rather good without needing to commit to becoming much better are not great tipping points in his favor from what I have seen.
Doughty is not as good as Suter now and he certainly doesn't look very committed to become better than him in the future after all he is the kind of guy that allows his contract situation to disrupt an entire organization, then shows up over weight and out of shape. Not impressed by him, his stock has fallen sharply since just two years ago and it doesn't seem to concern him one bit, hey just as long as he makes more than Kopitar I guess.
