Problem is, the Sedins are the Nucks 2 best players and always play on the same line together. When they get points, 46 and 44 respectively, how many total goals are they generating? Maybe 60 tops, assuming that they are in on 30-35 goals together.
That's why teams sometimes split up their top 2 players so that if 1 gets shut down due to a great D pair, the other has a chance to produce against the 2nd D pair and hopefully put up points.
Just because their numbers were respectable up until January doesn't mean his absence wasn't glaring. It's just more apparent now that his departure has disjointed the transition game.
You also have to remember that there are other factors that his absence can have on them, for example:
1. Beginning to wear down more quickly as a result of having to work harder to get into offensive zone and maintain pressure.
2. Teams don't have to worry about someone of Ehrhoff's caliber and can hone in on other players more, locking down the ice.
These things are all synergistic. Players don't play in a vacuum, which is why arguments about how one player is a complete product of another can be quite hyperbolic, if not downright fallacious. It's true some might benefit more playing alongside others than vice versa but these relationships are more often than not, mutually beneficial.
The Sedins have seen a drop in numbers and Ehrhoff doesn't seem to have the same effectiveness in Buffalo as he did last year. This isn't a coincidence. They mutually benefited from each other's play styles. It's not rocket science.
Very few players can put 90-100pt seasons consistently. These players are your generational talents. Sedins, despite their recent success, are not players of that calibre. I think 80-90pts should have been expected this year, and that's about what they are on pace for.
There are people saying that they are 'saving themselves' but I don't buy it. I know it looks like they are taking it easy out there, but IMO it ALWAYS looks like they are taking it easy.
Add in the fact that the powerplay is struggling a bit, and it should all make sense.
As long as they step up in the playoffs, that's all I care about.
Maybe Daniels not shooting as much as he used to? Maybe they're not getting the offensive zone chances as they used to? Maybe the drop in power plays has affected their play?
I'd perhaps work on some lines with them split again - I kinda liked the split up lines a few weeks back, gets them to think about not just trying to pass back to one another.
These things are all synergistic. Players don't play in a vacuum, which is why arguments about how one player is a complete product of another can be quite hyperbolic, if not downright fallacious. It's true some might benefit more playing alongside others than vice versa but these relationships are more often than not, mutually beneficial.
look at all those buzzwords.
Sedins are barely a point per game... LOL. just LOL.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the Sedins. The problem is the Sedins (and the whole team tbh) are having trouble getting their intensity level up to compete and battle like most of the teams they're playing against. But you've seen that happen in games that really matter, like the Boston game or lately the Detroit game, where they and the whole team hustled their *** off to win.
So personally I don't have any concerns regarding that, though I agree that against tighter checking teams the Sedins are not as effective, doesn't matter if it's game 7 in SC finals or some random game in February. The Sedins will start declining in terms of ability at some point, but that hasn't happened yet.
What I'm worried about is Kesler. His production and level of play has dropped dramatically from last year and even in big games he can't seem to accomplish anything. Come playoff time he really needs to start doing something on the ice, right now that's the single biggest difference in last year's team compared to this.
Hank is 1st on the team in +/-, Daniel not too far behind. Enough about their terrible defensive play - though it can sometimes be a fluke stat, when they are consistently getting great +/- numbers over several years (more than almost any other elite forwards in the league) then it's time to stop whining about their defensive play. They score a lot more than they get scored on, end of story.
Not to mention they are 7th and 8th in league scoring. Let's be realistic, that's still very good and they aren't going be 1st and 2nd every single year.
Our power play has been trash. That's a big part of their offense.
Yep. There is the main reason. Also, Burrows has not been as effective in puck retrieval as in year's past. It's made it more difficult for them to consistently set-up shop down low.
They've been playing like garbage since the Boston game.
Henrik: 22GP, 17pts, pointless in 12 games
Daniel: 22GP, 16pts, pointless in 13 games
Take out the game against Toronto and their joke of a defence, they've been producing like 45-50 pt players
What's more concerning is the number of games they've gone pointless. In more than half of the games (since boston), Sedins have contributed absolutely nothing to this team, and probably cost the team with their amateur defensive play. 22 games is more than a quarter of the season, and this level of play is really concerning to me...
Even just watching the games, it's not like they're generating lots of chances, they've been completely invisible for this past stretch. They also seem to struggle mightily against teams that play a stifling defensive style. I believe the Sedins, more than any other player in the league, are affected by the amount of open ice they have to work with. They just get completely shut down, generating almost nothing against these defensive teams that don't give them much room, and it will only get much worse in the playoffs.
I honestly believe the reason for the Sedins' lack of success in the playoffs doesn't have anything to do with them lacking heart, not caring enough, chokers. etcetc, they just can't produce when there is less open ice. In the playoffs, they've done well against teams that play less defensively, Blues in 09, Kings in 10, Sharks in 11.
If the Canucks face the Blues, Preds, Coyotes in the playoffs does anyone honestly believe that the Sedins can produce more than 3-4 points over a hypothetical seven game series? It's a complete joke how we can't rely on our first line forwards to produce offence for us when we face those teams.
I seriously don't see how the Canucks can get past the likes of Nashville this year. You just know that the Sedins will be Weber and Suter's b****, are we expecting Kesler to repeat his heroics from last year? Not something I'd feel confident in counting on considering Kesler's offensive output this year, but that's for another thread....
And this coming from a huge Sedin fan, half my posts probably have to do with defending the sedins from idiots in the past, but I've just about had it with these guys.
Im cursed.
I started watching Nucks games after the boston game again.
The team started to play like the team when I stopped following hockey few years back.
The Sedins (and Kesler) are going to need to be a whole lot better for this team to do anything in the playoffs.
Other than the 1st line and Kesler, who can the Canucks count on to produce anything offensively?
Higgins production has been inconsistent, and same goes for Booth. Raymond has struggled for two years. Hansen has dried up. Kassian is young and unproven, and Pahlsson doesn't score.
If the Canucks don't get the powerplay going, I really do wonder where the goals are going to come from.
I've said before I don't really care what they do in the regular season as long as they show up in the playoffs, and I'm sticking to my position. Last year they dominated the regular season, so what? This year they've struggled for the last 22 games. So what? If they put up 35 points in 25 playoff games and help us win each series en route to the Cup no one will care about this lull.
It may be concerning given their playoff track record, but let's wait until the playoffs before we start to judge and criticize them (or praise them).
I've said before I don't really care what they do in the regular season as long as they show up in the playoffs, and I'm sticking to my position. Last year they dominated the regular season, so what? This year they've struggled for the last 22 games. So what? If they put up 35 points in 25 playoff games and help us win each series en route to the Cup no one will care about this lull.
It may be concerning given their playoff track record, but let's wait until the playoffs before we start to judge and criticize them (or praise them).
The Ehrhoff excuse makes zero sense, it took until January for them to notice he was missing? Is that it?
Why the cliff like dropoff in their numbers come January?
My best guess is that teams are playing them more physical. Last year in the playoffs the only team they managed to really dominate was San Jose who only really had a slow Doug Murray to try and be physical on them.
Throw Kassian on their wing and watch their space and production increase.
I've said before I don't really care what they do in the regular season as long as they show up in the playoffs, and I'm sticking to my position. Last year they dominated the regular season, so what? This year they've struggled for the last 22 games. So what? If they put up 35 points in 25 playoff games and help us win each series en route to the Cup no one will care about this lull.
It may be concerning given their playoff track record, but let's wait until the playoffs before we start to judge and criticize them (or praise them).
I agree in that all that matters is how they play in the playoffs. But, I also agree they have played very poorly since the Bruins game.
But they are human. We all know their individual success will not be measured by anything they do in the regular season; only by what they accomplish in the post season.
Knowing that, could it just be really difficult for them to mentally get up for a regular season game?
I hope that is all it is.
However sometimes I worry with their style of play (lots of physically wearing play along the boards and their share of cheapshots in front of the net) they will be the type of players that will not have particularly long careers.
I think that is more fear based thinking on my part than anything else though. They are both said to be 2 of the best conditioned athletes in the game.
Whatever it is, they have to turn it around because players who think they can 'flip the switch' and turn their game around in the playoffs often find it difficult to do so.
Agree with the Ehrhoff post. Sedins need a pmd guy on their line to move the puck up, with Ehrhoff they just wait at the opposition blue line and carry the puck in. Now with no Ehrhoff they have to carry it through the neutral zone by themselves, you have defensive teams that likes to hang out at the neutral zone and the Sedins are shut down.
They need to be playing with Edler and Salo more because of this. Ballard, Rome, Alberts, are just not good enough. I also think Gillis getting MAG is for this reason.
I think people might be expecting too much from them. 35 points in 25 games ??
Good defensive teams in the playoffs have shown to put 5 man units out against the twins any time they touch the ice. They are up against premier players, who's sole job is to shut them down. When a team like San Jose didn't have high end shutdown talent, the twins tore them apart.
It becomes alot easier when your team has little to no threat behind them.
Vancouver is a pretty good defensive team, but they lack a big piece on the backend that can completely shut teams down ( Keith /Seabrook, Weber/Suter, Chara etc)
And yet how many opposing teams top lines have their way with Vancouver? Rarely am I too worried or furious that we can't contain another teams top line. The only time top players have shown to do anything really against Van is on the PP in the playoffs, when they somehow just collapsed against LA and Chicago.
We played Chicago last year.. How many of their top guys put up huge numbers? How about San Jose's big guns? What about Bostons top line?
Those top defensive teams are known as defensive for a reason. They specialize in limiting your goals and chances, this happens to every player in the world ( Crosby in the finals, Toews in the finals etc)~ Look at team Canada in the olympics, I hardly noticed Crosby at all but the checking line was dominant offensively in the big games.
The challenge will be for Vigneault to figure out a way to break through this, either with line combinations or diff strategy.
THAT BEING SAID, I fully expect the Sedins to be better than they were in Boston or Nashville. If they aren't scoring they need to be getting pucks in deep and atleast wearing teams down a bit. They will need to have possession of the puck , and not be a liability defensively. I get as frustrated with seeing them get shutdown as everyone else, but people need to realize it isnt that easy.
It's not just the Sedins since the Boston game, it's the whole team. Lets be honest here, we haven't looked very good for the last 2 months despite the fact we've been winning, or at least getting the single point for the OT/SO.
Our PP has been abysmal, and our offense has dried up. TBH, I'm not sure how we are still leading the league in goals for? And it's starting to catch up to us now. Losing the last 2 when leading after 2 periods, after going 26-0-0 before that? Our PP has now dropped to 3rd in the league @ 21.6% after we were are high as 27% ----> a full 4% higher than any other team at the time. Only scoring 2 goals in the last 2 games -----> luckily our goalies have been on fire lately.
If we didn't have such a big cushion in the division, 13 of our last 18 at home, and 10 of 18 against non-playoff teams, I'd be very concerned. As is, I am concerned, and if we want to make a deep run, we'd better pick up our game here.
As has been said - the playoffs are all that matter. As long as they continue chipping in enough points to help the team win more often than not, right now I am not too concerned.
What I do find concerning is that our PP seems to have been figured out, and there has really been very little adjustment on that.
When we played against Boston, the Canucks shifted their zone entry style mid-game. Their drop passes were being anticipated and picked off, and it resulted in several odd-man shorthanded chances for the Bruins - including a penalty shot.
The Canucks adapted by having a winger carry in, curl back and look for the cross-ice pass. It worked, and our PP clicked again.
I haven't seen that same zone-entry style since, and I would very much like to.
look at all those buzzwords.
