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What is wrong with the Sedins?

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Old
02-29-2012, 02:58 PM
  #51
dwarf
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Losing Ehrhoff is the issue to the original question. I went on the record when he was traded and stated the Sedins would lose 20 to 30 points. And people were up in arms at my statement.

In hockey if you want mvp numbers from your forwards, you need a strong offensive dman. Edler and Bieksa are good, but not great. And Salo is winding down.

Losing Ehrhoff was a big mistake imo, and Gillis has been making a few of those the last couple years. Well I should specify the Bernier trade, the Ballard trade, and imo the Hodgson deal.

Anyway, I think people need to start riding GMMG and making him accountable for the craptastic deals he has been making. Or the horrible advice he has been getting.

Right now if the Canucks would have Ehrhoff, Grabner and Hodgson in their lineup, wouldn't that look a lot better? Just my humble opinion on it. And I sure hope the Canucks can do something this playoff, but I see a first round exit.............

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02-29-2012, 03:12 PM
  #52
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Yes, the Canucks are going to lose to a team like Colorado in the first round. What?

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02-29-2012, 03:12 PM
  #53
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I love how Luongo can have a bad game or 2 and people crucify him but the Sedins can play like garbage for more than a month and everyone defends them or bash people who criticize them

I love the Sedins but they did nothing in the finals vs Boston while Luongo at least put up 3 great games. Such Hypocrisy

The Sedins are on cruise control and I really hope they're just resting up for a long cup run. They haven't looked very dangerous and are a big reason the PP is dropping

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02-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #54
VanEric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck19 View Post
It's not just the Sedins since the Boston game, it's the whole team. Lets be honest here, we haven't looked very good for the last 2 months despite the fact we've been winning, or at least getting the single point for the OT/SO.
Look at Boston since then. I also look at when the Canucks really dial in on games like Boston, Chicago and Detroit. They come out playing great hockey. I think they're just pacing themselves.

Last year they were clearly chasing trophies (Art Ross, President's). This year? They're just trying to get a 1 or 2 seed and go from there.

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02-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #55
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While I don't share your pessimism dwarf, I do agree with you regarding Ehrhoff (see my earlier post). Most high scoring forwards do need someone to make life easier for them by bringing up the puck unless they're already strong skaters to begin with, which the Sedins are not.

At the end of the day though, you can't just assume that with Ehrhoff, Grabner and Hodgson, the Canucks would look better and be in better position to win the cup. Hindsight's always 20/20 and GM's take plenty of calculated risks. It's impossible to foresee everything.

The Canucks do need to target a puck mover in the offseason (should be top priority) if Gragnani doesn't pan out.

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02-29-2012, 03:43 PM
  #56
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At the end of the day though, you can't just assume that with Ehrhoff, Grabner and Hodgson, the Canucks would look better and be in better position to win the cup. Hindsight's always 20/20 and GM's take plenty of calculated risks. It's impossible to foresee everything.

The Canucks do need to target a puck mover in the offseason (should be top priority) if Gragnani doesn't pan out.[/QUOTE]

I am still trying to digest the Hodgson deal, and having a tough time with it.

But I do agree with your post. I am hoping I will be wrong and the Canucks can get it done this playoff. However, I just don't see it with losing Hodgson's secondary and clutch scoring and down an Ehrhoff and Torres from last season.

From all accounts it seems Gragnani is a long shot. But never know.

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02-29-2012, 03:50 PM
  #57
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Like most of you have said, while the Sedins haven't been playing their best, neither has the rest of the team, except for our goaltenders. The last two years, Hank won the Art Ross/Hart and put up 112 points, while Daniel followed suit the next year with his own Art Ross. It was a great regular season, but it in the end, it wasn't indicative of their playoff performance (I still thought they were pretty good, though). Seeing them not put up as many points this year doesn't really phase me too much at this point. I also think they're not trying as hard because they know it doesn't mean much. They'll turn it on in the playoffs (hopefully).

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02-29-2012, 03:56 PM
  #58
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Remember the Detroit game? They were absolutely dominant.

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Old
02-29-2012, 04:10 PM
  #59
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I bet they will have a strong to end to the season. 13 of the last 18 games are at home and lot's against NW. Unfortunately, there is still a game left against Phoenix

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02-29-2012, 04:17 PM
  #60
VanEric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxMan View Post
I bet they will have a strong to end to the season. 13 of the last 18 games are at home and lot's against NW. Unfortunately, there is still a game left against Phoenix
Hey, we beat them 5-0 earlier in the year.

Our last two games against Phoenix were the first game back after a road trip and the last game of a road trip. That's why sometimes regular season results can be a bit misleading.

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02-29-2012, 04:29 PM
  #61
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I didn't have time to read the whole thread right now, so I apologize if this has been touched on already, but there are a number of factors -- some fairly obvious, too, I think.

Power plays are way down. Way, way down. This doesn't only mean the Sedins get less time to actually score on the power play: it also means they get less time to wear down top opposition defenders. It also means they get hooked and held around the net a lot -- and, like usual, they get zero respect from the officials in the league.

Second, two seasons ago when Hank won the Art Ross/Hart, the Sedins had almost generationl-talent production at Even Strength: Lemieux-esque. That sort of season wasn't going to repeat itself, but the Sedins improved on the power play last year and it compensated for the natural drop-off to normal elite ES production.

I also think there is something to be said for losing Ehrhoff, who they played with about 45% of the time last season (off the top of my head). Ehrhoff isn't a "better" offensive defenseman than Edler or Bieksa necessarily, but he played more of a rover game in the offensive zone (like Bieksa) but had a shot like Edler, allowing him to finish plays. He also had a nice quick-release snapshot/wrister that Edler doesn't have. Also, I think neither of Salo nor Edler control the point as well as Ehrhoff did on the power play. Edler has a heavy shot but he has a very hard time getting it on net effectively. Salo is, I am sad to say, close to an anchor on the power play this season.

They've also had a bit of bad luck this season relative to their shooting percentages. It happens. They're probably not playing quite as well and they're having some bad luck, but their "off" year is still pretty darn good. Plus they still have some time to turn it around. Maybe this year they'll have an elite playoff -- if they do, nobody will care at all about this regular season.

Hopefully the harder minutes the 3rd/4th line are going to play will allow the team to wear down the opposition a bit more and the Sedins can start to take over games in the third period like they used to. The officiating isn't going to help though. We're approaching pre-lockout levels of powerplays. Classic NHL.

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02-29-2012, 04:38 PM
  #62
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The Sedins are what, 6th & 8th in league scoring. Yes they have slowed down, but so what.

And even if they are falling off dramatically (which i don't think they are) what do you whiners propose. That AV bench them?

Hopefully we play 104 or so games this season, do you really want them giving there all right now?

Last time I looked we were 1st overall in the NHL, have our division sewn up, and have only had 3 regulation losses in something like 25 games.

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02-29-2012, 05:04 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
We're approaching pre-lockout levels of powerplays. Classic NHL.
It hit that level years ago. Here's the number of PP opportunites per game per team league wide since 2000:

00-01: 4.59
01-02: 4.13
02-03: 4.42
03-04: 4.24

05-06: 5.85
06-07: 4.85
07-08: 4.28
08-09: 4.15
09-10: 3.71
10-11: 3.54
11-12: 3.49


5 of the lowest 6 years are post lockout and a cursory look at the '90s numbers suggests they were higher than most post lockout years as well.

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02-29-2012, 05:05 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billvanseattle View Post
The Sedins are what, 6th & 8th in league scoring. Yes they have slowed down, but so what.

And even if they are falling off dramatically (which i don't think they are) what do you whiners propose. That AV bench them?

Hopefully we play 104 or so games this season, do you really want them giving there all right now?

Last time I looked we were 1st overall in the NHL, have our division sewn up, and have only had 3 regulation losses in something like 25 games.
A glass that is 95% full is not acceptable!

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02-29-2012, 05:18 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vector209 View Post
What's wrong with the Sedins?

It's called Christian Ehrhoff, or the lack of. It's not a coincidence that his tenure here resulted in two of their most dominant seasons offensively. This is what great puck moving defensemen do: they make the offense flow more smoothly, allowing for greater output from the forwards. By getting rid of Ehrhoff, the Canucks lost the ability to get out of the zone as fluidly as last season, leading to a change or adaptation in team strategy that's clearly affected the Sedin's game. Players on the ice develop a symbiotic chemistry that can really be disrupted if tampered with. This isn't me complaining about letting Ehrhoff go, it's just me assessing what I think is the problem based on what I see on the tube.

Look at Mike Green's return to the Capitals recently. Ovechkin's been playing a little better as a result, scoring more often. Then Drew Doughty. When he struggles, the entire King's offense looks like they're moving through quicksand and have no cohesion. Lidstrom to some degree too (which is why I think Detroit is absolutely finished once he retires but that's not relevant to this discussion). It's amazing people still can't figure out the importance of a offensive wizard on the back end.

The way the Canucks played last season, the puck moved from their own end, through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone in mere seconds and with a certain fluid nature. This year, it kind of seems wonky at times. It's there some games, others not. I think the Sedins fed off of that and as a result, their numbers have dropped back to the 80-85 point range.

The fans still looking for more offensive punch are slightly behind the curve in my opinion. Getting someone like Gragnani is a step in the right direction but he could bust. But the acquisition itself says something about Gillis (who I think more often than not, displays incredible foresight and anticipation) and what he believes the team needs to kind of restore some of that magic from last year.

Interestingly enough, once Ehrhoff hurt his shoulder in the playoffs, the offense was completely done. The Sedins were at their absolute worst in the finals and that was in my opinion, a combination of the Bruins' smothering style and the injured backend (specifically Ehrhoff).

The Canucks in the offseason really need to target someone like Wideman but ideally, it would be Mike Green. Since Vokoun is coming off the books and they only have Neuvirth, they should try and work something involving Schneider for Mike Green. I know my praise for him might seem unwarranted but I think the utility value he brings to the team far surpasses the Rick Nash's or even the Corey Perry's of the league. The timing is perfect: upcoming RFA and his value is at all time low in light of all his injuries but when he's on, he's absolutely explosive and would likely catapult the Sedins back up to MVP stratosphere.

Just my deux pennies.
This is an excellent analysis of their struggles and arguably the primary reason our powerplay has ranged from inconsistent to simply atrocious. Ehrhoff, for all his defensive blunders, was oddly a stabilizing presence. Not only was his transition game beautiful but he held the physical aspect on the blueline that Salo simply cannot replicate. It is no wonder teams are no longer wary to push the defensemen on our first line. This leads me to ponder a few alternatives, namely replacing Salo with Tanev.

No, Tanev is not Ehrhoff by any stretch... on the offensive scale however he plays a similar transition game, quietly controls the zone and strong on the puck. His ability to stabilize the game and those around him is remarkable given his inexperience. This has been no better demonstrated than by how much Ballard and even Rome have improved playing with him. While it would not be a permanent thing necessarily, I'd like to give the experiment a try both five on five and especially on the powerplay. Speaking of the latter, I've recently wondered if we ought to run Burrows or Kesler on the point in lieu of Salo, thus using four wingers. In some respects it may be Edler who should be swapped for Tanev but I wonder who of the two (Salo or Edler) would be better manning the second unit likely with Bieska.

At the end of the day, the team and powerplay are still ranked top tier but a little trial and error couldn't hurt. If we win while playing weak hockey, imagine the success if we "woke up." I also do not buy for an instant the Sedins are "resting." That is the same nonsense excuse Cap fans have used with Ovechkin. They have been a borderline liability at times. Everyone hits a slump but we need to try and get them going. Twenty games left before a hopeful cup run. You better be playing motivated.


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02-29-2012, 05:21 PM
  #66
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The Canucks do need to target a puck mover in the offseason (should be top priority) if Gragnani doesn't pan out.
I'm not even sure Gragnani will get much of a chance here, seeing as how V seems to always want to insert that useless plug Rome into the lineup.

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02-29-2012, 05:26 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavaxa2 View Post
I'm not even sure Gragnani will get much of a chance here, seeing as how V seems to always want to insert that useless plug Rome into the lineup.
If Gillis resigns Rome, I swear I'll throw something at his house. I don't know what it is about Rome AV loves so much but bloody hell if it isn't infuriating.

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02-29-2012, 05:42 PM
  #68
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It is 100% the disappearance of power plays. I'll bet their 5-on-5 per-minute production hasn't changed much.

Plus the Canucks have been on some gruelling road trips this year, including now.

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02-29-2012, 06:12 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by dwarf View Post
Losing Ehrhoff is the issue to the original question. I went on the record when he was traded and stated the Sedins would lose 20 to 30 points. And people were up in arms at my statement.

In hockey if you want mvp numbers from your forwards, you need a strong offensive dman. Edler and Bieksa are good, but not great. And Salo is winding down.

Losing Ehrhoff was a big mistake imo, and Gillis has been making a few of those the last couple years. Well I should specify the Bernier trade, the Ballard trade, and imo the Hodgson deal.

Anyway, I think people need to start riding GMMG and making him accountable for the craptastic deals he has been making. Or the horrible advice he has been getting.

Right now if the Canucks would have Ehrhoff, Grabner and Hodgson in their lineup, wouldn't that look a lot better? Just my humble opinion on it. And I sure hope the Canucks can do something this playoff, but I see a first round exit.............
Wrong.

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02-29-2012, 06:15 PM
  #70
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IMO the twins and Burrows together have become a little stale. I think most of the league has seen what works for them and it's time for a change, at least some of the time. It's pretty rare for 3 players to have a run this long.

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02-29-2012, 06:18 PM
  #71
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I don't really buy the lack of PPs being the main culprit. They've dropped, but not that much. If you divide the season up into pre New Year's and post New Year's samples the number of PP opportunities has dropped a little over 0.6 PPs per game. Given the season to date effectiveness that translates to about 3-4 more GF for the team over the last 25 games.

Of course, their number of PKs also dropped even more dramatically (about .80 fewer per game) so I don't know that the team is really any worse off. Maybe they would've had a goal differential that's +1 better or so in the last 25 games?

And the number of PPs aside, the Canucks haven't been as good with the man advantage. 16 PP goals in their last 35 games (15.6% in that span) with 4 of those coming in a single game vs. Boston.

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02-29-2012, 06:36 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I don't know what it is about Rome AV loves so much but bloody hell if it isn't infuriating.
Probably because he makes the simple plays all the time. However, sometimes these are the wrong ones to make.

He reminds me of that story Cherry was telling about the dmen who was told to just keep it safe and shoot the puck off the glass to get it out. The next play there aren't any opposition players anywhere near his zone and he fires it off the glass for an icing.

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02-29-2012, 08:03 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
I don't really buy the lack of PPs being the main culprit. They've dropped, but not that much. If you divide the season up into pre New Year's and post New Year's samples the number of PP opportunities has dropped a little over 0.6 PPs per game. Given the season to date effectiveness that translates to about 3-4 more GF for the team over the last 25 games.

Of course, their number of PKs also dropped even more dramatically (about .80 fewer per game) so I don't know that the team is really any worse off. Maybe they would've had a goal differential that's +1 better or so in the last 25 games?

And the number of PPs aside, the Canucks haven't been as good with the man advantage. 16 PP goals in their last 35 games (15.6% in that span) with 4 of those coming in a single game vs. Boston.
Is there a site that has a lot of the team statistics you post or do you do the maths yourself?

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02-29-2012, 08:38 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
It hit that level years ago. Here's the number of PP opportunites per game per team league wide since 2000:

00-01: 4.59
01-02: 4.13
02-03: 4.42
03-04: 4.24

05-06: 5.85
06-07: 4.85
07-08: 4.28
08-09: 4.15
09-10: 3.71
10-11: 3.54
11-12: 3.49


5 of the lowest 6 years are post lockout and a cursory look at the '90s numbers suggests they were higher than most post lockout years as well.
Explains the clutch and grab going on. Phoenix does get away with far too much, they don't get pp either but as team trying to illegally stifle skill you take that trade off and run.

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02-29-2012, 08:42 PM
  #75
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IMO the twins and Burrows together have become a little stale. I think most of the league has seen what works for them and it's time for a change, at least some of the time. It's pretty rare for 3 players to have a run this long.
I kinda agree. If Henrik, brother Daniel and Burrows can't generate 5 on 5 offence (and they haven't regularly all season...it's alarming) we're ****ed, pure and simple. I want to see Sedin-Sedin-Zack and Booth-Kesler-Burrows for a long stretch to see if it could click.

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