What makes you think someone would overpay to get him?
You're overrating his value. Teams are built down the middle, on defense and in net. They're not built around goal scoring wingers (no matter how good) with huge cap hits (Vanek still has one of the biggest cap hits in the NHL, tied for 12th).
I'm not saying we coulndn't get a good return for him but he isn't quite the golden asset some think he is.
Some might have said the same thing about Kassian as the basis for a deal for Hodgson. Yet, that deal got done.
If there is a team that feels that they are missing a pure goal scorer and they have an excess at center, the Sabres might be able to pull something off.
LA, San Jose, or Florida might be teams to talk to over the summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
What team in their right mind would trade away a legit #1 center for a #1 LW? Let alone one with a cap hit like Vanek's?
I said in the deal.
I would expect that the Sabres would have to add someone of real value to Vanek to get Kopitar.
I doubt it happens, but I doubted that the Sabres could get a young top 6 center like Hodgson, too.
I just think that there were a few teams with center depth that were kicking the tires on Nash and perhaps Regier could ride the coattails of that dance.
Not sure if that fits cap-wise, but it'd be a nice group, yes, young down the middle, but change has been necessary, and getting a guy like Getzlaf/Staal or whoever seems extremely unlikely.
I'm amazed at how people continue to lobby for Vanek to be traded. Putting aside the illogical theory of dealing the franchise's only true goal-scorer and consistent power forward for a minute, what makes anyone think that Regier will trade him other than for a motherload of an overpayment?
I would stake my house on the certainty that, as long as Regier and Ruff are in Buffalo, Vanek, Miller and Pominville will all stay Sabres - the only way any of them leave is if they go to management and ask for a trade, or management is changed with a new coach and GM.
The only two players considered part of the "core" that I see being dealt in the future - and who knows when - are Roy and Stafford. With the way Roy has been playing for the past month, I won't be shocked to hear Regier defend his poor year by claiming Roy is now playing well for the first time because he's healthy and skating normally.
Totally agree here.
I still don't see any team willing to deal their #1 center for Vanek, and for what Vanek brings, there's really no way we can afford to ship him out.
As for Vanek, Pominville and Miller- I think Darcy and co. have decided that they are what matters from the "old" core, and will look to keep establishing the "new" core (Myers, Hodgson, Ennis, McNabb) to reshape the identity of the team.
I still think a Roy-for-center swap needs to happen, even if it may seem to be a lateral move from a points perspective. For example, there was once rumblings of a Roy for Plekanec swap. This is the type of deal I'd be looking for, one that both continues to reshape the team's identity while also bringing in a replacement for Roy that would better mesh with Vanek and Pominville. Pleks is also a top flight PK'er and great defensive center. His overall style of play would be perfect for Vanek and Poms and woulc create the type of even strength line that could match up against other teams' top lines ona nightly basis- something we haven't had consistently since Hecht-Connolly-Poms in 09-10.
Addressing size/toughness in the Top 6 is also an issue. Many have mentioned Dustin Brown as a target, and I think that's actually possible if LA continues to fizzle out and looks to move in a new direction under Richards' leadership. They just lost a good young puck-mover in Jack Johnson, I'd offer them Stafford, Leopold and one of our 2nd's (although it's going to take Sekera).
I would target Suter. Hard. Offer him an Ehrhoff style deal. It would be completely worth it in every way. Think 10 years, 63 million.
I'd also look hard at a guy like Stoll. Someone that could consistently center the third line, replace size/toughness and face-off ability that we lost in Gaustad and even play wing on the third line if we draft a Grigorenko or Galchenyuck. I'd offer him a three year deal at around 6.6 million.
Re-sign Ennis at a contract similar to what Stafford got before his current deal. Re-sign Kaleta. Promote Foligno and McNabb.
Trade NSH 1st, BUF 1st, and a 2nd rounder to move up and select Grigorenko/Galchenyuck. Let Stoll take the draws on his line.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($7.142m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m)
Tyler Ennis ($1.900m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.666m) / Dustin Brown ($3.175m)
Nathan Gerbe ($1.433m) / Mikhail Grigorenko ($0.950m) / Jarret Stoll ($2.200m)
Marcus Foligno ($0.900m) / Luke Adam ($0.875m) / Patrick Kaleta ($1.300m)
/ Cody McCormick ($1.200m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($6.300m) / Tyler Myers ($5.500m)
Robyn Regehr ($4.020m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m)
Brayden McNabb ($0.900m) / Jordan Leopold ($3.000m)
Mike Weber ($0.950m)
GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m) / Jhonas Enroth ($0.675m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,637,856; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $512,144
Some might have said the same thing about Kassian as the basis for a deal for Hodgson. Yet, that deal got done.
If there is a team that feels that they are missing a pure goal scorer and they have an excess at center, the Sabres might be able to pull something off.
LA, San Jose, or Florida might be teams to talk to over the summer.
The poster I quoted asserted it should take a massive overpayment to get Vanek. I disagreed and argued Vanek is overvalued on this board.
The Kassian/Hodgson trade has zero relevance to that. Those were two kids that make peanuts traded for each other. Vanek is a 7.124mil cap hit and that will impact his value in a trade.
Quote:
I said in the deal.
I would expect that the Sabres would have to add someone of real value to Vanek to get Kopitar.
I doubt it happens, but I doubted that the Sabres could get a young top 6 center like Hodgson, too.
But again, why would LA waste Kopitar in an effort to get Vanek + ?
Kopitar is the better, younger player thats playing the more important position.
Quote:
I just think that there were a few teams with center depth that were kicking the tires on Nash and perhaps Regier could ride the coattails of that dance
Fair enough but I think Nash is the better player and would garner more interest.
Too many posters have Vanek's value up on an unrealistic pedestal. They feel nothing less than a legit #1 center or a massive overpayment talent haul coming back warrants trading him. IMO thats absurd.
I could see the Sabres doing a Vladimir Malakhov type trade at the draft to get rid of Leino so they have more room to maneuver in free agency.
Doubt that. Especially with the owners pushing for the 1 time "get out of cap jail free card". And honestly, free agency is pretty thin. There's some depth guys sure, but it not like we have to break the bank to sign them.
Brown for Pominville (Stafford isn't gonna be good enough; adds sandpaper to top 6)
Trade 2nd+ Leopold of Parise rights
Sign Steve Ott
Sign Carkner
Draft any Center's who's last name starts with G
Looks good to me, but man that's wishful thinking.
It's certainly possible. If LA's scoring struggles continue, I can see them swapping Brown for Pominville. Question is, is it an upgrade? Sure we get some physicality but we lose a strong PK'er, our leader and arguably our most productive forward, who can play with anyone and put points up.
any team is better off keeping kopitar. but they, like us, are a team in need of a shake up. they just took on two HUGE contracts in richards and carter, who are signed until 2020 and 2022 respectively. kopitar has four more years after this one (through 2016) at a 6.8 mil cap hit. LA is having all kinds of difficulty scoring, and as others have noted, have seriously depleted their depth in trading for richards and carter. if they miss the playoffs, you have to think that lombardi would at least be open to offers on his players...
Though I don't think they're quite ready to give up on him yet, I don't think Darcy would flinch if LA demanded Luke Adam in a deal for Brown. With Vanek, Ennis, Gerbe, and Leino able to play LW in the top-9, and guys like Foligno, McCormick, and Ellis able to play LW in the bottom-6, they could deem him expendable. I think this would also require the belief that he won't be able to hack it as a center in the NHL--personally, I'm already there.
The more I think about it, the more I think Darcy will be using him in proposals.
Funny you should bring this up. I was analyzing the Sabres depth chart today at work (great use of time!) and came to the conclusion that Adam's going to be moved this summer. First, he has value as a top prospect with some NHL experience. Second, he's clearly behind Roy and Hodgson and not the answer as third line center (particularly with guys like Stoll available in the UFA market). Plus, he's a bit slow to play center. So that leaves LW, which is our most stuffed position. Therefore, Adam becomes expendable.
I also think a LW gets moved, and my money's on Gerbe. You have Vanek and Ennis as the clear top sixers. You can't bury a 4.5 million dollar guy in Leino on the fourth line, nor would you want to put such a soft player there. Therefore, that leaves Leino (who we're stuck with) on the third line. Where's Gerbe going to play?
Conclusion: I see Adam and Gerbe being used as chips along with some of the extra picks to make a big move in the top six. I'd think Stafford, Adam, and a 1st could buy you a RW upgrade. Or swap out Stafford for Roy, and maybe you've got a shot at a center upgrade.
I see two additions to the bottom six via the UFA market (third line pivot and fourth-line banger, possibly also a pivot). Ellis gets waived and sent to the Amerks.
I doubt much is done to the defense. In the event Regier got a bottom pairing banger like Carkner, he'd probably shed Weber for a 2nd. He could also keep the same defense and jettison Leopold for cap space and to open a permanent top six spot for McNabb.
PS: I'm confident Regier will be very active in the trade market given his plethora of picks, as well as in picking up bottom-six UFAs. I think he stays away from the biggest guys in free agency and with good reason. This team needs a Konopka at 850K more than Parise at 8 million. (I'm not knocking Parise, just saying it doesn't make sense unless you're moving Vanek, and even then, it's a fairly lateral move.)
Iv'e posted this in 2 other threads and no one has replied. Does anyone else like this?
Future Team(2 or 3 years)
-Don't make a run to the playoffs(if they are stupid and do, trade Roy and both 1st rd. picks for a very high draft pick) -> draft Galchenyuk with the 1st rd. pick
-Sign Ryan Suter($6.35m)
-Trade Stafford, Psysk, and a second rounder to Pittsburg for Kunitz
-If they don't go for the playoffs and get a high 1st rd. pick-trade Roy, Leopold,and Sekera for future draft picks
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($7.142m) / Alex Galchenyuk ($2.500m) / Joel Armia ($2.050m)
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Cody Hodgson ($1.666m) / Jason Pominville ($5.300m)
Marcus Foligno ($0.900m) / Tyler Ennis ($2.750m) / Ville Leino ($4.500m)
Nathan Gerbe ($1.433m) / Luke Adam ($0.875m) / Patrick Kaleta ($1.125m)
DEFENSEMEN
Tyler Myers ($5.500m) / Ryan Suter ($6.350m)
Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m) / Brayden McNabb ($0.900m)
Robyn Regehr ($4.020m) / Mike Weber ($0.950m)
GOALTENDERS
Ryan Miller ($6.250m) / Jhonas Enroth ($0.675m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,612,856; BONUSES: $1,257,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $1,687,144
Buffalo from COL or Buffalo from LA
Nash Kopitar
Brassard Brown
Wisniewski Bernier
Mason
Columbus:
Miller
Vanek
Roy
2nd
Trade:
Buffalo
Edm #1 pick (Gal/Grigrenko)
Edm
McNabb (So tempted to put Myers here. I am not a fan but I didnt want to cause a riot. He's plays so timid. Garbage. Much rather keep Mcnabb)
Buff #1 pick
Trade:
Buffalo
Rights to Radulov (thinking this could ease the sting of being pillaged for a #1)
Nash:
2nd from Buff (throw in stafford if necassary)
nash - hodgson - pomminville/brown (Armia in 2013)
radulov - kopitar - semin
ennis - gal/grigs - pomminville/brown (Armia in 2013)
ott - konopka - foligno (I know a 1st and Adam for Ott playing on the 4th line. No other spot for him. But that'll be one hell of a 4th line. Pay for the best)
xBrassard
xgerbe
xleino
Lol if anything I'd end up up broke from jersey purchases...cmon how do you choose between Nash, Hodgson, Radulov, Gal/Grig, Semin, Foligno...You dont...you buy them all!! lol....commence destruction
Last edited by slowgothemo: 03-01-2012 at 10:52 PM.
Reason: Puncutation
Buffalo from COL or Buffalo from LA
Nash Kopitar
Brassard Brown
Wisniewski Bernier
Mason
Columbus:
Miller
Vanek
Roy
2nd
Trade:
Buffalo
Edm #1 pick (Gal/Grigrenko)
Edm
McNabb (So tempted to put Myers here. I am not a fan but I didnt want to cause a riot. He's plays so timid. Garbage. Much rather keep Mcnabb)
Buff #1 pick
Trade:
Buffalo
Rights to Radulov (thinking this could ease the sting of being pillaged for a #1)
Nash:
2nd from Buff (throw in stafford if necassary)
nash - hodgson - pomminville/brown (Armia in 2013)
radulov - kopitar - semin
ennis - gal/grigs - pomminville/brown (Armia in 2013)
ott - konopka - foligno (I know a 1st and Adam for Ott playing on the 4th line. No other spot for him. But that'll be one hell of a 4th line. Pay for the best)
xBrassard
xgerbe
xleino
Lol if anything I'd end up up broke from jersey purchases...cmon how do you choose between Nash, Hodgson, Radulov, Gal/Grig, Semin, Foligno...You dont...you buy them all!! lol....commence destruction
any team is better off keeping kopitar. but they, like us, are a team in need of a shake up. they just took on two HUGE contracts in richards and carter, who are signed until 2020 and 2022 respectively. kopitar has four more years after this one (through 2016) at a 6.8 mil cap hit. LA is having all kinds of difficulty scoring, and as others have noted, have seriously depleted their depth in trading for richards and carter. if they miss the playoffs, you have to think that lombardi would at least be open to offers on his players...
Exactly, so that pretty much ends the discussion.
Folks, just take a few minutes to think this through. If you do, I'm confident the folly of it will become clear.
To help, here are a few things to ponder
1. Kopitar is a young (24yrs old), big (6'3" 227lb) franchise center thats led his team in scoring the last 5 seasons (that includes this year). Is signed for the next four seasons at a cap hit (6.8mil) in line with what he is. He is basically what every team without a franchise center covets.
2. LA has 10+mil in cap space next year with 20 guys signed. That 20 includes their entire defense, both goalies, Kopitar, Carter, Richards and Brown. The can add offensive help in the offseason without worrying about the cap and without giving up key players.
3. LA is perfectly situated at center with Kopitar, Richards and Carter on the roster for the next 4 years.
4. If LA wants to shake things up they can trade Brown and name Richards captain. It provides a culture shakeup while keeping the center group intact.
I would have thought, of all fans, Sabre fans would understand the folly of letting your franchise center go.
The poster I quoted asserted it should take a massive overpayment to get Vanek. I disagreed and argued Vanek is overvalued on this board.
The Kassian/Hodgson trade has zero relevance to that. Those were two kids that make peanuts traded for each other. Vanek is a 7.124mil cap hit and that will impact his value in a trade.
But again, why would LA waste Kopitar in an effort to get Vanek + ?
Kopitar is the better, younger player thats playing the more important position.
Fair enough but I think Nash is the better player and would garner more interest.
Too many posters have Vanek's value up on an unrealistic pedestal. They feel nothing less than a legit #1 center or a massive overpayment talent haul coming back warrants trading him. IMO thats absurd.
Vanek and Nash should have equivalent trade value (in general terms). While you may argue that Nash is the better all around player...the fact is there is no measurable evidence of such a difference that could be equated in trade value.
And while you may argue value in the 6 more seasons vs 2 more seasons.... Vanek is making 6.4 for 2 more years, while Nash makes 7.6-8.2 for the next 6 seasons.
I don't see how the trade value, under all those circumstances doesn't fall in the "same ball park"
the only difference i see, is that Columbus will be moving Nash for a handful of futures (high prospects, picks, young talent)... while Buffalo, in moving Vanek, would be looking for a 1 for 1 type of deal involving proven talent.
Folks, just take a few minutes to think this through. If you do, I'm confident the folly of it will become clear.
To help, here are a few things to ponder
1. Kopitar is a young (24yrs old), big (6'3" 227lb) franchise center thats led his team in scoring the last 5 seasons (that includes this year). Is signed for the next four seasons at a cap hit (6.8mil) in line with what he is. He is basically what every team without a franchise center covets.
2. LA has 10+mil in cap space next year with 20 guys signed. That 20 includes their entire defense, both goalies, Kopitar, Carter, Richards and Brown. The can add offensive help in the offseason without worrying about the cap and without giving up key players.
3. LA is perfectly situated at center with Kopitar, Richards and Carter on the roster for the next 4 years.
4. If LA wants to shake things up they can trade Brown and name Richards captain. It provides a culture shakeup while keeping the center group intact.
I would have thought, of all fans, Sabre fans would understand the folly of letting your franchise center go.
5. They have a very young, tradeable asset in Bernier that they can move for a young winger with scoring ability.
Vanek and Nash should have equivalent trade value (in general terms). While you may argue that Nash is the better all around player...the fact is there is no measurable evidence of such a difference that could be equated in trade value.
And while you may argue value in the 6 more seasons vs 2 more seasons.... Vanek is making 6.4 for 2 more years, while Nash makes 7.6-8.2 for the next 6 seasons.
I don't see how the trade value, under all those circumstances doesn't fall in the "same ball park"
the only difference i see, is that Columbus will be moving Nash for a handful of futures (high prospects, picks, young talent)... while Buffalo, in moving Vanek, would be looking for a 1 for 1 type of deal involving proven talent.
Who is more valuable between Nash and Vanek was not really my point.
Neither is a center and both have IMO disproportionately high cap hits relative to their positional value. In my world those aren't the type of assets that net you a #1 center. That was my initial point.
Too many posters on this board think Vanek is a unique asset that can only be moved if we get a #1 center back. I think thats absurd and why I think posters overvalue him. A #1 center by position alone is the more valuable commodity. Thats before factoring in the individual characteristics of the players involved or their respective contracts.
It gets trickier when the massive overpayment package deal is discussed. Thats a more subjective thing. Since a package deal can involve various things (current players, picks, prospects) and as such its hard to say sometimes if its an overpayment or not.
I wonder if Dineen would like a chance to work with Adam again? Looking at the Panthers duo of prospect centers and how they've taken strides this year, something around Adam and one of the Sabres 1sts for Bjugstad perhaps?
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
I wonder if Dineen would like a chance to work with Adam again? Looking at the Panthers duo of prospect centers and how they've taken strides this year, something around Adam and one of the Sabres 1sts for Bjugstad perhaps?
I think that'd be anathema to Regier, who'd likely believe that Adam's professional accomplishments plus five more years of team control make him of at least equivalent value, and if a value chasm exists at all it's a gap that doesn't need a 1st to bridge.
Adam + NSH's 1st for Bjugstad + Drew Shore's rights? Now I'd go for that--and Florida may too if they think signing Shore is an impossibility, and it sounds like it might be for them.
I think that'd be anathema to Regier, who'd likely believe that Adam's professional accomplishments make him of at least equivalent value, and if a value chasm exists at all it's a gap that doesn't need a 1st to bridge.
Adam + NSH's 1st for Bjugstad + Drew Shore's rights? Now I'd go for that--and Florida may too if they think signing Shore is an impossibility, and it sounds like it might be for them.
Tallon ought to be on Regier's speed-dial list for what they have in the pipe and closer than what someone drafted this year will likely be as of puck-drop next season.
