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Was Turning Down 4 1st Round Picks Wrong?

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Old
03-01-2012, 07:34 AM
  #151
aingefan
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Originally Posted by KapG View Post
burke can't keep his mouth shut.
Deadline comments to instill confidence in his guys just like with Reimer.
Rah Rah = zero immediate results so far.

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03-01-2012, 07:43 AM
  #152
Mike Jones
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I have no idea why Burke broadcast the fact that he turned down four first round draft picks. He should have grabbed them all when he had the chance and use the rest of the season to figure out what he was going to do the them all. I think the Leafs would have had five firsts in this year's draft with one of them being a lottery pick. The last team who had those numbers was Montreal in 1974.

The one small thing I can say in defense of Burke is that 5 choices in one year does present some problems. The main thing would be the cap. I can just imagine what would happen if those choices all came up for renewals at roughly the same time.

But that shouldn't have stopped him. He should have grabbed the picks when he had the chance and done the math as the season wound down and plans began coming together for the draft.

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03-01-2012, 06:17 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
I have no idea why Burke broadcast the fact that he turned down four first round draft picks. He should have grabbed them all when he had the chance and use the rest of the season to figure out what he was going to do the them all. I think the Leafs would have had five firsts in this year's draft with one of them being a lottery pick. The last team who had those numbers was Montreal in 1974.

The one small thing I can say in defense of Burke is that 5 choices in one year does present some problems. The main thing would be the cap. I can just imagine what would happen if those choices all came up for renewals at roughly the same time.

But that shouldn't have stopped him. He should have grabbed the picks when he had the chance and done the math as the season wound down and plans began coming together for the draft.
Or you could look at it like 5 first rounders competing against one another to make the big club. This is what is happening with the Sens in Goal. Bishop and Lehner will have the chance to compete for the back up role next season. Everyone loves Lehner from top to bottom but he has been having not a great season in the AHL. Most of the guys he won the Calder cup with last season are on the Sens This season and he was the MVP. By bringing in Bishop it gave Lehner a kick in the pants. You need guys competing against each other at a high level so you can see who is the best. Drafting Kadri is fine but who is pushing him? This is why you need as many high picks so they try to beat out each other and as a result you see who are the players worth keeping.


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Old
03-01-2012, 06:43 PM
  #154
Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by Stylizer1 View Post
Or you could look at it like 5 first rounders competing against one another to make the big club. This is what is happening with the Sens in Goal. Bishop and Lehner will have the chance to compete for the back up role next season. Everyone loves Lehner from top to bottom but he has been having not a great season in the AHL. Most of the guys he won the Calder cup with last season are on the Sens This season and he was the MVP. By bringing in Bishop it gave Lehner a kick in the pants. You need guys competing against each other at a high level so you can see who is the best. Drafting Kadri is fine but who is pushing him? This is why you need as many high picks so they try to beat out each other and as a result you see who are the players worth keeping.
I don't disagree but 5 first round draft choices in one year is a lot of competition in a cap world - especially if they're playing roughly the same position. 2 goalies duking it out for a backup job is one thing - 5 guys going after each other for a $4-6M second contract is another. It's not a bad problem to have but I wouldn't want to be the person doing the math.

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03-01-2012, 06:47 PM
  #155
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He shouldn't have traded all four guys mentioned. Keep Schenn, he'll be an important part of our future. Kulemin too, and it would've been poor asset management to trade him while his value is so low

Having said that, getting a 1st rounder for Mac would've been great. He's not a core player by any means. Grabo would be something only he and the rest of management could decide as their the only ones with knowledge of the contract negotiations.

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03-01-2012, 06:53 PM
  #156
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Wasn't the statement - we had offers involving 4 first round picks, rather than we were offered 4 first round picks.

Ie - hypothetically, 4 different teams offered a 1st for Grabovski, so it wouldn't have been 4 first round picks, but actually less than that?

Regardless though - other than adding a goalie at the deadline for a reasonable price (which wasn't possible), and trying to create some roster spots by dumping salary (which was impossible), I'm satisfied with what Burke did at the deadline.

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03-01-2012, 07:03 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
Wasn't the statement - we had offers involving 4 first round picks, rather than we were offered 4 first round picks.

Ie - hypothetically, 4 different teams offered a 1st for Grabovski, so it wouldn't have been 4 first round picks, but actually less than that?

Regardless though - other than adding a goalie at the deadline for a reasonable price (which wasn't possible), and trying to create some roster spots by dumping salary (which was impossible), I'm satisfied with what Burke did at the deadline.
No I'm pretty sure Burke made it clear that they got four first round picks offered for Mac, Luke, Grabo and Kuli.

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03-01-2012, 07:11 PM
  #158
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Yes, it was right and here is why.

Scehnn for a first rounder,lol yeah right.He is 22 and will take time,a step backwards.

Kulemin,he will bounce back next year and score 20 goals and make a good 3rd liner but has lost top 6 status,Frattin steal his job next year making us bigger.

Aulie was traded for a first rounder,Ashton Carter.

Grabovski,only if we could get him back in the summer.

Macarthur,yes but it was conditional.

All Burke needs to do is fire his entire coaching staff including Allaire,and if we miss the playoffs he wil have to or he will be fired, and then them as well.

The only mistake if at all, Burke made was Mac."Hand me the phone!". Players only play well until they get the contract.Trading him for a late first would be considered a good move with all the young players we need to make room for next year.We still need to buyout Connolly,Lombardi and maybe Komi this summer.

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03-01-2012, 07:32 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
I don't disagree but 5 first round draft choices in one year is a lot of competition in a cap world - especially if they're playing roughly the same position. 2 goalies duking it out for a backup job is one thing - 5 guys going after each other for a $4-6M second contract is another. It's not a bad problem to have but I wouldn't want to be the person doing the math.
Your assuming quite a lot that in 3 years you would have to pay them all that much. With 5 1st rounders you have a really good opportunity to produce 3-4 good to elite players. At least you could draft a top forward or two, a couple of D men, with the chance to develop them. They grow in your organization and when they are up for a new contract they resign. I think if you are going to build something you have to do it from the start and by always trading for players and signing free agents you lose that element of growth. This season for the sens has been like a revolving door for our AHL players. They get called up as a reward for working. If they play well they get to stick around for a bit.

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03-01-2012, 08:09 PM
  #160
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It's hard to say what the exact offers were for each player. My take:

- Keeping Kulemin and Schenn was the right move IMO, we can re-sign Kulemin as an RFA, and Schenn is signed long term, no reason to trade these good young players for mid/late 1sts

- Keeping MacArthur was probably the wrong move, I like his game but IMO Kadri can fill a similar role in the lineup, I'd rather get a 1st if it was, say, a top 20 pick. Not a big deal though, we can always trade him later, or just keep him and try to extend his deal

- Keeping Grabo could be a big mistake, I absolute love Grabo but he could very easily leave as a UFA this summer. Apparently offers were in the range of 1st and a prospect, depending on the 1st and the prospect we arguably should have gone for it. Chicago are the team most in need of a #2 C, if they were offering something like a 1st + McNeill, that's a deal we should have taken. Again, no way to know what the actual offers were though


As for why Burke let this info out, the answer is simple: he LOVES the spotlight, LOVES IT. Any time he can get himself in the news, he will.


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03-02-2012, 04:50 AM
  #161
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I don't know if it's true but I would have explored all those trades considering the shape this team is in. Maybe we could have got some prospects thrown in as well. 5 first round picks and a prospect or two? I'd do it but of course Burke wouldn't. He's still living the Anaheim dream that a couple trades or personnel moves will win him a cup.


Last edited by Dalton: 03-02-2012 at 05:41 AM.
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Old
03-02-2012, 05:21 AM
  #162
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Only Cmack was worth trading for a 1st IMO.

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03-02-2012, 05:41 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
It's hard to say what the exact offers were for each player. My take:

- Keeping Kulemin and Schenn was the right move IMO, we can re-sign Kulemin as an RFA, and Schenn is signed long term, no reason to trade these good young players for mid/late 1sts

- Keeping MacArthur was probably the wrong move, I like his game but IMO Kadri can fill a similar role in the lineup, I'd rather get a 1st if it was, say, a top 20 pick. Not a big deal though, we can always trade him later, or just keep him and try to extend his deal

- Keeping Grabo could be a big mistake, I absolute love Grabo but he could very easily leave as a UFA this summer. Apparently offers were in the range of 1st and a prospect, depending on the 1st and the prospect we arguably should have gone for it. Chicago are the team most in need of a #2 C, if they were offering something like a 1st + McNeill, that's a deal we should have taken. Again, no way to know what the actual offers were though


As for why Burke let this info out, the answer is simple: he LOVES the spotlight, LOVES IT. Any time he can get himself in the news, he will.
Personally, I think he was BS'ing on all these offers he had and was just doing it to stir interest and drive up the price. I think he did the same thing when he was trying to move Kaberle.

If he had these offers for 1sts but was looking for roster players, he could have taken the 1sts and flipped them later for roster players.

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03-02-2012, 05:50 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
How do you know the 4 players? Burke never mentioned them. Don't pretend to know. Also, don't pretend to know if the pick was bottom of the first or middle. Based on all this how the heck can anyone debate whether it was a good idea or not.
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late 20th round picks for kulemin, grabo and schenn are terrible return.
It's pretty likely that at least 2 of those picks would indeed be in the bottom of the 1st round at #20-30, and at best maybe the other 2 would be around #10-20. People are compiling stats and probabilities of all-stars and NHL regulars including picks #1-10, which just skews things because it's unlikely bottom third teams would be dealing #1 picks.....highly unlikely. Run the numbers on only picks #10-20 or #20-30 and then make an evaluation.

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03-02-2012, 07:01 AM
  #165
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If it turns out that this team fails and Burke could have had a total of five first round picks in this draft it will be a great topic of discussion for many years. Legendary.

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03-02-2012, 03:26 PM
  #166
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If it turns out that this team fails and Burke could have had a total of five first round picks in this draft it will be a great topic of discussion for many years. Legendary.
He would have been able to package picks together to move up in the draft too. Draft a #1 Center like Mikhail Grigorenko or Radek Faksa, Draft a good Dman in Ryan Murray or Morgan Rielly. Maybe even try and draft a goalie late in the first round or early second and take Malcolm Subban. He swung the trade to get the Sedins why not move up in this years draft.

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03-02-2012, 03:32 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Stylizer1 View Post
He would have been able to package picks together to move up in the draft too. Draft a #1 Center like Mikhail Grigorenko or Radek Faksa, Draft a good Dman in Ryan Murray or Morgan Rielly. Maybe even try and draft a goalie late in the first round or early second and take Malcolm Subban. He swung the trade to get the Sedins why not move up in this years draft.
Because he needs to find a team that wants to move down first.

When teams are offering a first round pick it is because they don't feel confident of getting a good player with it. Therefore putting together those picks wouldn't necessarily motivate any team to move down.

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03-02-2012, 04:14 PM
  #168
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Because he needs to find a team that wants to move down first.

When teams are offering a first round pick it is because they don't feel confident of getting a good player with it. Therefore putting together those picks wouldn't necessarily motivate any team to move down.
Sure it would. If they could get 2 1st rounders for 1 and all they have to do is move down a few spots in the order. If he really had that many 1st rounders at his disposal, including his own, he could have owned this draft. As a result the Leafs would probably do worse next season resulting in more high picks. You bring in veterans to give leadership and good coaching and you build something. Not all the picks are going to turn out but giving yourself as many chances in finding cornerstone pieces is the gamble. Assuming that you can find different UFA's who play well together i think this is not a recipe for long term success.

Would Leaf fans rather have a team like Edmonton where there are a lot of talented players who just need experience and more maturity or a team looking for the right trade just to get in to the playoffs then the right trade to make it to the second round?


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03-02-2012, 04:19 PM
  #169
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It's all smoke and mirrors. There is no mystery 4 1'st round picks. He said that to instill confidence in his team, which, if it fails, he can then parlay into similar value at the draft.

He covers all bases by saying this. It's likely fantasy.

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03-02-2012, 04:22 PM
  #170
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It's all smoke and mirrors. There is no mystery 4 1'st round picks. He said that to instill confidence in his team, which, if it fails, he can then parlay into similar value at the draft.

He covers all bases by saying this. It's likely fantasy.
It could be an offer from one single GM that was willing to give up his 1st for any of the 4 players.

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03-02-2012, 04:27 PM
  #171
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It could be an offer from one single GM that was willing to give up his 1st for any of the 4 players.
Yah definitely. Could even be two. But the scenario of 4 GMS giving up first round picks is ludicrous.

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03-02-2012, 04:33 PM
  #172
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It's all smoke and mirrors. There is no mystery 4 1'st round picks. He said that to instill confidence in his team, which, if it fails, he can then parlay into similar value at the draft.

He covers all bases by saying this. It's likely fantasy.
Burke is full of hot air - it is hard to know where the truth ends and lies starts. For a GM, that talks about honour, morality and integrity he leaves a lot to be desired in himself.

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03-02-2012, 04:34 PM
  #173
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should of got one for Mac

if it was a 1st from a non playoff team i would do it for Grabovski and Kulemin

Schenn i would rather deal for a franchise player (package), or just keep him

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03-02-2012, 04:43 PM
  #174
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Burke is full of hot air - it is hard to know where the truth ends and lies starts. For a GM, that talks about honour, morality and integrity he leaves a lot to be desired in himself.
Like when? Some examples ( with links) would be nice. I won't hold my breath.

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03-02-2012, 04:45 PM
  #175
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Was it one team that offered the same first for the 4 players in question. I don't believe that 4 separate teams called about 4 different players and offered their first.

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