The Ottawa Senators have been saying the same thing since the early 1930's. My goodness how long are these guys going to keep crying wolf. One only need look at the long storied success of the franchise to see it's all bs
You mean like in 1930's when they had financial problems and had to sell the team to St. Louis? Ya, they cried wolf. I am sure we could get hockey back in another 60 years. Then we could retire Butlers number 16 and have a restaurant named Butler's.
Not a great move by Leeder. He could have worded things differently and got his point across. The Sens are pretty bad for pulling the "if x happens, the team is going to leave" card. It's well annoying.
I have no doubt that closing this tax break will hurt but not nearly as much as made out.
My thoughts:
-Given that there is little to no real large private business in Ottawa, this isn't the end of the world. The Sens customer is the 75-100k public servant and not private businesses. They are probably justified if they are worried at box sales.
-Gov't cutbacks are more of an issue than this tax break.
-Any potential increase in interest rates (mortgages) is more of an issue too.
-From personal experience, post-2008 the number of corporate freebies is way down anyway. So they might have been losing the corporate support (in the form of ticket sales anyway) regardless. I work for a major financial services company and the number of tickets and other freebies is not nearly what it used to be.
I dont have a problem with this from a policy point of view. Tax breaks for this kind of thing is a waste. My problem is that something like this could happen in an effort to look like McGuinty is doing something, while major issues wont get tackled.
I tweeted at my MPP (Yasir Naqvi) earlier this morning and he just sent me a message asking for me to email him with my concerns etc and he'll reply back with his thoughts/position on the issue.
Even if the threat of moving isnt really all that plausible, hit up your MPP and let them know Sens fans are paying attention and are concerned.
Although I really, really, REALLY pray that the Sens wont pack up and move in my lifetime, this could be used as a bit of a catalyst to get the more average Joe Blow fan to buy in to a Season Ticket package. They have gone on the record as saying they're targeting Joe Blow and have come up with some very affordable and flexible packages/payment options.
So get off your wallet!!!!!!!!!!!
The "Joe Blow" fans go to a handful of games a year...say 3-5? and watch the rest in their Man Cave... Most probably invest more into that than what a ticket package is worth so they will get use out of it. With every single game on TV and most in HD the average fan will watch from home, especially those with families and/or other responsibilities...
Alot of times the empty seats at SBP are those in the upper 300's that are worth less than $30... Either the team doesnt advertise those tickets well enough to the average joe blow or people just arent that interested in going to the games... It is a big time/money investment to be a package, half, or full season seat owner... Especially if you dont live in Kanata...
I have a half season package and leave home at 5:30 or so and am home by 11pm... Thats a big time investment for somebody with better things to do... unlike me
Melnyk is loaded and the team and arena are basically a cash cow.
Nothing to worry about here, keep going to games and don't worry about the rhetoric.
The team actually isn't a cash cow. The team actually loses money. He does make money owning SBP though. I think he earns a profit each year, but not from the actual franchise.
You have to consider them as two separate businesses.
If the franchise loses even more money, and SBP can't make up for the losses, then it stands to reason that something might happen. I doubt it will, but you never know. If the team suddenly loses 25% of their corporate support, especially in the boxes, then that's a huge loss in ticket revenue.
One quick and simple way around McGuinty's nonsense, don't sell tickets, sell merchandise.
Companies purchase Sens merchandise as give aways to their customers and as employee rewards, and the Sens give free tickets with every purchase.
Seriously though, this has very definite ramifications for the Sens. They currently have the lowest ticket prices in Canada, do not make a profit yearly, so being forced to drop ticket prices does probably spell the end of the team in Ottawa.
I think this is mostly a PR move anyway, the money they say they would save $15 million-would be less than the money lost to taxes most likely if it means a team like the Senators moving out of Ontario.
This applies not just to the games but also concerts etc at Scotiabank Place where a lot of the revenue comes from that subsidise the team.
I get the feeling Uncle Eugene is not as flush with cash since his business troubles and his divorce.
It is also a killer for art and theater and restauants. The tax breaks for companies is a boon for everyone in the entertainment and restaurant business. This could mean that a lot of places would have to close.
The situation in Toronto and Ottawa are very different . In Toronto it may mean lower prices(probably not) because of the size of the fan base, in Ottawa it may mean the team will move.It would be an easy sell in the GTA voter base though-none of their teams would be in peril, the ticket prices may go down and the prospect of the Sens leaving town would hardly be a deterrent.
For those absoutely positive that the Sens won't move and this is all rhetoric, I ask you one simple question.
Let's say the Cdn $ falls to .70 - that means 30% less to spend on salaries and 30% more out of Uncle Eugene's pockets....think that's gonna change anything?
Simple illustration of how one thing can change everything. Sens need to ensure that the cash keeps coming in from whatever source it can control...this is one of them...
You mean like in 1930's when they had financial problems and had to sell the team to St. Louis? Ya, they cried wolf. I am sure we could get hockey back in another 60 years. Then we could retire Butlers number 16 and have a restaurant named Butler's.
I see I was too obvious.
When a person is being facetious they don't always have to use one of these
For those absoutely positive that the Sens won't move and this is all rhetoric, I ask you one simple question.
Let's say the Cdn $ falls to .70 - that means 30% less to spend on salaries and 30% more out of Uncle Eugene's pockets....think that's gonna change anything?
Simple illustration of how one thing can change everything. Sens need to ensure that the cash keeps coming in from whatever source it can control...this is one of them...
The only thing that worries me is that we will never spend to the salary cap again, being $ 5-10 mil below. Of course, if the NHL destroys the NHLPA in the next labour dispute, and player salaries drop to 50% of revenue down from 57%, like the NBA and NFL, there's some cushion.
Anyone who thinks Melnyk would move the team, leaving his arena empty without a major tenant is very naive. He'd lose way more money owning an arena that is empty most of the time than losing some corporate clients, which he can easily make up for by lowering player salaries. Scotiabank Place would be practically worthless without the Senators.
The "Joe Blow" fans go to a handful of games a year...say 3-5? and watch the rest in their Man Cave... Most probably invest more into that than what a ticket package is worth so they will get use out of it. With every single game on TV and most in HD the average fan will watch from home, especially those with families and/or other responsibilities...
Alot of times the empty seats at SBP are those in the upper 300's that are worth less than $30... Either the team doesnt advertise those tickets well enough to the average joe blow or people just arent that interested in going to the games... It is a big time/money investment to be a package, half, or full season seat owner... Especially if you dont live in Kanata...
I have a half season package and leave home at 5:30 or so and am home by 11pm... Thats a big time investment for somebody with better things to do... unlike me
Very well said. When I walk around campus, I see booths for cheap seats available. But generally they're against teams I could care less if I see or not (Isles, TBay, etc.) . But tickets for Leafs/Habs are like $70.00+ for upper 300's. Also, I'm not about to shell out a couple g's, to sit in traffic for a guaranteed 2 hours 41 days of the year.
The only thing that worries me is that we will never spend to the salary cap again, being $ 5-10 mil below. Of course, if the NHL destroys the NHLPA in the next labour dispute, and player salaries drop to 50% of revenue down from 57%, like the NBA and NFL, there's some cushion.
Anyone who thinks Melnyk would move the team, leaving his arena empty without a major tenant is very naive. He'd lose way more money owning an arena that is empty most of the time than losing some corporate clients, which he can easily make up for by lowering player salaries. Scotiabank Place would be practically worthless without the Senators.
You'd have to think though that the young fans who started watching the team in the 1990s and early 2000s are now getting to an age where they can start buying more tickets, buying more gear... so hopefully that will offset some of this?
(This statement is from an economic perspective not political)
That's exactly what McGuinty said he'd like. The lower dollar would help our exports but make our imports very expensive. That sounds good for Ontario manufacturers but Canadians would pay 100% of the cost + new in-Canada-only markups due to lack of competition for Canadian goods and roughly 130% for imported products. Other countries with higher currencies would benefit by paying 70% of the production cost (excl freight etc...) for any goods we export to them.
To put it in perspective while Canadians are paying $107 a barrel for their own western oil the Americans would only pay about 75% of what we Canadians would pay in equivalent dollars. The caveat is that a lot of the oil we use in the east is imported from other countries like Venezuela so we would be paying around $140 per barrel of imported oil. If you think gas prices and heating fuel prices are high now just imagine what it would cost under the McGuinty plan. (In truth we would have to pay the world price for our own Canadian oil which would have to paid in adjusted dollars meaning a 30% increase or roughly $140 Canadian per barrel)
How much food do you think we import from other countries? Check the product origin stickers on what you buy. Even a lot of canned or packaged goods marked as Canadian contain significant imported material. How would you like another 35% increase on your fruit and vegetables etc... This is on top of the usual increases due to inflation. Have fun paying the bills and feeding your family.
Btw) They are looking at every sport and not just hockey tickets, harness racing etc... so the effect is much broader.
(This statement is from an economic perspective not political)
That's exactly what McGuinty said he'd like. The lower dollar would help our exports but make our imports very expensive. That sounds good for Ontario manufacturers but Canadians would pay 100% of the cost + new in-Canada-only markups due to lack of competition for Canadian goods and roughly 130% for imported products. Other countries with higher currencies would benefit by paying 70% of the production cost (excl freight etc...) for any goods we export to them.
To put it in perspective while Canadians are paying $107 a barrel for their own western oil the Americans would only pay about 75% of what we Canadians would pay in equivalent dollars. The caveat is that a lot of the oil we use in the east is imported from other countries like Venezuela so we would be paying around $140 per barrel of imported oil. If you think gas prices and heating fuel prices are high now just imagine what it would cost under the McGuinty plan. (In truth we would have to pay the world price for our own Canadian oil which would have to paid in adjusted dollars meaning a 30% increase or roughly $140 Canadian per barrel)
How much food do you think we import from other countries? Check the product origin stickers on what you buy. Even a lot of canned or packaged goods marked as Canadian contain significant imported material. How would you like another 35% increase on your fruit and vegetables etc... This is on top of the usual increases due to inflation. Have fun paying the bills and feeding your family.
Btw) They are looking at every sport and not just hockey tickets, harness racing etc... so the effect is much broader.
Canadians and Ontarians need incomes to pay for those imported goods. If all the jobs go away because of our high dollar, where does that leave us?
We can import all these things! If only we had the money to pay for them (buy them in other words)!
The economic perspective is very complex - for example high oil prices should help bring jobs back to Canada/America from China. Free healthcare in Canada combined with lower corporate tax is an additional benefit - because the companies shoulder almost no healthcare costs and pay less taxes. This page could easily reach 1000 posts if you wanted to talk indepth about the entire economic perspective.
Funny thing is if the tax act was applied as written, a lot of the "tax breaks" would not be allowed under the current rules. Ottawa with one of the smallest corporate ticket bases in the league won't be affected as much. A lot of the "corporate" tickets sold are to small businesses where the owners are fans, and will still buy tickets.
For major corporation, the tax implications of a few seats isn't a big deal.
Funny thing is if the tax act was applied as written, a lot of the "tax breaks" would not be allowed under the current rules. Ottawa with one of the smallest corporate ticket bases in the league won't be affected as much. A lot of the "corporate" tickets sold are to small businesses where the owners are fans, and will still buy tickets.
For major corporation, the tax implications of a few seats isn't a big deal.
I think that it's for all the suites on all levels that are all sold to corporations, so that is quite a few seats & quite a bit of money, millions in fact, is what I'm hearing. But I would be surprised if the Premier, a guy from Ottawa does something that could cost his home town their NHL hockey team. I wonder what his brother thinks of that whose federal political career could also come crashing down from this kind of a move. I don't see it happening or businesses & the Sens will find ways around it including increasing ticket prices.
There is no way the team survives people. You are all horribly naive about this. I am one of thos with the write-off and while I can swallow the 4K or so, albeit not happily, who do you think are going to rent the 120 corporate suites? I already spoke to some other businesses this morning and they are out. There is no way these people will get these tickets, which are 50% of the season tickets. 5,000 tickets, 25-30 Million. These suite are six figure investments. They will be empty, except for maybe a dozen. If those corporate boxes are not full and they sell every ticket, they will lose thsier shirt. Dwight Duncan thinks the moms and pops can now afford to go? Who the **** is going to sit in the boxes? That is where the money is.
You guys don't realize that if this passes, we are done for. Horribly naive the lot of you.
Back to hockey, I agree with the people who said the Sens could just shift their marketing strategy by burring the tickets in a package somewhere. Just think about it…Buy $10k worth of merchandise and get free seasons tickets!!!
There are 1000 ways to pay taxes but there are 1001 ways to get out of paying them
I guess the corporations will have to pay for their own tickets now. If the sens are a hot commodity, people will pay. Some small businesses may have to make a tough decision. No doubt the sens will have to lower prices a bit, and lose a good chunk of change. Not the end of the world though. If tickets for the average fan increase i will be very dissapointed.
Sports franchises might be in for a bit of a wakeup call with the current economic state of the U.S. The constant growth expected in major league sports revenues isn't really sustainable.
