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2012 Redskins Screw Up The Offseason Thread (+QB, -1st Rounders, -$36 Million!)

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Old
03-01-2012, 10:54 PM
  #51
Brian23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
Dude, it has nothing to do with the Hogs. Look at the Steelers and Colts. Heck, look at the Patriots. You want a dynamic offense? The ball isn't coming out right away. Your receivers have to get downfield. You want to draft a rookie? There's no way in crap they're making good decisions that quickly for YEARS.
You do realize the Steelers and the Colts have 2 of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, right?

With Big Ben, he makes more time by just being Big Ben. Peyton was able to do amazing things because of how intelligent he was and how fast he could get the ball out. He put it where they were going to be, thus hitting them down field.

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03-01-2012, 10:57 PM
  #52
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You think the Redskins o-line is ok and that the Steelers and Colts lines that won the Superbowl were among the worst in the NFL?

Ok.

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03-01-2012, 11:04 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
You think the Redskins o-line is ok and that the Steelers and Colts lines that won the Superbowl were among the worst in the NFL?

Ok.
You think winning equates to good OL's?

Outside of Pouncey (who was pretty average this year and got in on the whole myth that Steelers always have Boss Centers) and Jeff Saturday, neither team has outstanding Oline men. The Colts just drafted Costanzo but there's no telling how good he'll be.

Both teams got by on how good their QB is and what they're capable of. The Colts OL is designed to hold up for literally 3 seconds to get the ball out and than its done. They can't run and besides Saturday being extremely intelligent, they've got nada really.

I'd say the Skins have a slightly better OL but beyond conceivable QB play. This team really was not that bad, it was Rex's turnovers and Beck's inability to do anything that killed this team.

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03-01-2012, 11:16 PM
  #54
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There are no words.

The Redskins have 1, maybe 2 legitimate NFL starters on the line.

The 2006 Colts had two pro bowl starters on the line.

The 2005 Steelers had 1 pro bowl starter and 1 reserve on the line.

Blind. Homerism.

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03-01-2012, 11:23 PM
  #55
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No, its not. Pro Bowls seriously mean jack. They're popularity contest, not contests of skill. All Pro's hold more value even though they're getting a little degraded on their viability.

The current Redskins have 2 weak links on the line. The Center position and the RT position. After that I'd probably upgrade RG, but Chester is neither an eyesore nor a real helpful player their. He's just solid.

Lichtensteiger was our best OL before he went down to injury. He was the linchpin in our stretch run play. Past that, Trent really came on near the end of the year before his suspension and things seemed to be "clicking" for him.

Not a damn thing I'm saying is blind homerism. The fact you can't realize how a fast delivery and an outstanding QB can completely change the outlook on an OL is ridiculous. Indy went from giving up 16 sacks in 2010 to giving up 35 in 2011 and that's a jump of 2.8% to 6.9% on drop backs. The biggest difference? Going from Peyton Manning to a rag tag grouping of QB's with the likes of Kerry Collings, Curtis Painter, and Dan Orlovsky as their starting QB's.

And why are you taking 05 and 06 as their representations? They went in 2009 and 2010 respectively as well.

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03-01-2012, 11:27 PM
  #56
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How many times qbs get hit=not a measure of o-line play. Pro bowls= not a measure of o-line play. How good Brian23 decides you are= measure of good o-line play.

Don't worry, I've got it.

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03-01-2012, 11:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
How many times qbs get hit=not a measure of o-line play. Pro bowls= not a measure of o-line play. How good Brian23 decides you are= measure of good o-line play.

Don't worry, I've got it.
Nice Strawman you've erected their.

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Old
03-01-2012, 11:30 PM
  #58
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Please provide one objective piece of evidence for your position that the Redskins o-line is better than ANY Superbowl winning o-line ever. One piece.

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03-01-2012, 11:48 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
Please provide one objective piece of evidence for your position that the Redskins o-line is better than ANY Superbowl winning o-line ever. One piece.
Again, nice strawman you've erected there.

I have asserted our OL is not as bad as made out to be. You than reference 2 OL's that are severely helped out by their QB and I pointed to reasons as such.

With Ben; Have you never seen one of his highlights? They're him throwing off defenders as his line breaks down. The entire mystic of Big Ben is you -can't- bring him down, and it doesn't matter what kind of line you've got.

With Peyton, you've got one of the fastest release times in the league coupled with the probably the highest Football IQ the game's seen. That offense is his offense and what makes him great is the ability to get the ball to a place before his man even appears open. It also helps he can probably call your defense better than you can.

Now about those SB OL rosters. You had Ryan Diem, Kyle DeVan, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Lilja, and Charlie Johnson (RT, RG, C, LG, LT). Outside of Saturday, how accomplished is that line? They had 5 Prowbowls, 4 All Pros, and 1 OL of the Year Awards between them. All held by Jeff Saturday. Such an amazing line.

On the Steelers you had Flozell Adams, Ramon Foster, Doug Legursky (Pouncey was injured, remember), Chris Kemoeatu, and Jonathan Scott (Willie Colon went down with a Tricep injury, if I recall correctly. Same order as the above too) and between them you have 5 Pro Bowls and 1 All Pro, all held by Flozel Adams who is/was at the tail end of his career and got in due to injuries.

Now I haven't once stated our OL is -better- than those lines were, however I will state they were better than them overall last year. Trent Williams and Kory Lichtensteiger are pieces we will keep for the long haul, Chris Chester seems to be stuck at the RG slot for awhile. We need 1 for sure new piece on the right side (but those are -later- round picks. It also helps that Willie Smith showed a lot of promise at the LT at the end of the year and could possibly switch over and we just signed Will Montgomery if we need a Center. With consistency and a much better player at the QB position, this OL will be seen in a much better light.

We gave up 41 sacks last year putting us at 21 on sacks given up. You take away the 10 sack game of Beck (where everyone and their mother turned on Beck for how indecisive he was with the ball) and we've moved to I think 8th, at least in the top 10. Near the end of the year with Helu and Royster seeing more time our running game finally got going, leaving us with 2 young runners who seemingly found their grove and a rag tag OL paving the way for them.

So really, how bad was our line again?

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03-01-2012, 11:53 PM
  #60
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1) You're not using the Superbowl winning rosters for some reason.
2) I could care less if they were better than them last year (though they weren't), because I'm talking about needing a good offensive line to WIN A SUPERBOWL.

Me: You need an offensive line.
You: Antiquated thinking. Hogs.
Me: Look at every superbowl champion.
You: Those o-line were among the worst in the league.
Me: You have to be kidding me.

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03-01-2012, 11:57 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
1) You're not using the Superbowl winning rosters for some reason.
2) I could care less if they were better than them last year (though they weren't), because I'm talking about needing a good offensive line to WIN A SUPERBOWL.

Me: You need an offensive line.
You: Antiquated thinking. Hogs.
Me: Look at every superbowl champion.
You: Those o-line were among the worst in the league.
Me: You have to be kidding me.
Even the Giants last year were called out to have a poor OL. The media hypes them as up they are winning, it does not equate out to them being grand. David Diehl, or whatever his name is, was dreadful last year but him getting to the SB suddenly makes him outstanding.

What got the Giants there was a stout pass rush and Eli playing like a Franchise QB. The Pats were the same token, Brady being Brady.

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Old
03-02-2012, 12:01 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Brian23 View Post
Even the Giants last year were called out to have a poor OL. The media hypes them as up they are winning, it does not equate out to them being grand. David Diehl, or whatever his name is, was dreadful last year but him getting to the SB suddenly makes him outstanding.

What got the Giants there was a stout pass rush and Eli playing like a Franchise QB. The Pats were the same token, Brady being Brady.
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nf.../matchups?pg=1

Quote:
2. New England Patriots (5)

LT: Matt Light
LG: Logan Mankins
C: Dan Koppen
RG: Dan Connolly
RT: Sebastian Vollmer

Elite starters and elite depth. The Pats are so talent-laden in the front five that No. 17 pick Nate Solder will ride the bench as a rookie. Mankins is the best guard in the game, and Vollmer may possess more impressive athleticism than any right tackle in the NFL. Koppen is a stalwart, having missed one start since the 2005 season. Among backups, swing tackle Mark LeVoir, C Ryan Wendell, and G/C Chris Morris have started before. Fifth-round pick Marcus Cannon, a first-round talent, could be a real difference maker if he cracks the lineup after beating lymphoma.

Biggest beneficiary: Tom Brady. Pats are loaded with pass blockers.
Quote:
9. New York Giants (3)

LT: *William Beatty
LG: +David Diehl
C: *David Baas
RG: Chris Snee
RT: Kareem McKenzie

The Giants' offense will return to a run-to-setup-deep shots approach, which plays to its members' strengths. (Eli Manning shouldn't be throwing 530 times a year.) While a lot of shuffling took place in the front five, this remains a unit rich on talent. Beatty is a finesse tackle with elite upside as a pass protector. Diehl is best suited to guard at this stage, and Baas was a big addition inside. Snee is still just 28, and McKenzie, 32, remains a dominant run blocker when healthy. There is no shortage of depth with OG Mitch Petrus, and OTs Kevin Boothe and James Brewer in the fold.

Biggest beneficiary: Hakeem Nicks. And Mario Manningham.
Quote:
20. Washington Redskins (3)

LT: Trent Williams
LG: Kory Lichtensteiger
C: *+Will Montgomery
RG: *Chris Chester
RT: Jammal Brown

After re-signing Brown to a five-year, $27.5 million contract, the Redskins wasted no time settling on a first-team line. Cohesion is crucial for the Shanahans' zone-blocking system, and they added a key piece in Chester, who was miscast as a power blocker in Baltimore. An athletic former college tight end, Chester can get up field efficiently and should flourish under old Ravens position coach Chris Foerster. Washington's lines have been dreadful for several seasons, but the arrow is pointing up on this one. Especially promising was the fact that Williams reported to camp in tip-top shape.

Biggest beneficiary: Tim Hightower. The zone-blocking scheme is in full effect.
So...what was the Giants line good at? Giving Manning time to let his receivers get down field.

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Old
03-02-2012, 07:41 AM
  #63
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The Giants DL disrupted the seemingly vastly superior Pats OL... again. The Giants formula for winning has included a stout DL. Defense tends to win out, and it won again. The league is changing though. OC's are slowly moving off their stubborn stance and Tebowing, catering to a young QB's strength. A top notch QB is more important than ever, as he can overcome a lame duck OL easier than vice versa. The OL must be skilled smart, and well orchestrated. It ain't easy to make a great OL. You do, one injury hits, and you are toast. I think pocket awareness can overcome a bad OL, and a coach smart enough to recognize the QB is smarter than him. I think that is the Peyton formula.

Do the old school stubborn coaches even let their QB's call audibles? Did we last year?

I totally agree Brian, a great QB, strengths catered to, elevates his OL, and the entire team. A young highly touted young QB can make plays, he doesn't need the OL to carry him as much as a less skilled QB. These are not awkward 17 year old hockey prospects, these are 23+ year old men reading the plays.

Blindly building the number 1 OL so you can bring in a Rypien type just reeks of attempting to win it the Redskins old school way, by outweighing your opponents by 30 pounds across the board. It can work, but testing has largely ended that easy way to win. You need a good OL, but you need a good QB. Its not just the OL anymore.

Our OL was better than our QB. We need a QB and every Skin fan knows it.

Strawman


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Old
03-02-2012, 08:17 AM
  #64
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I've maintained that you get the QB first because of how long they take to develop vs the O-linemen. That and the fact that elite QBs don't come around very often (and you absolutely need an elite one to win nowadays), while there are multiple quality offensive linemen in every draft class.

The Giants don't regret trading a ton for Eli in 2004, even though they assembled the core of those super bowl teams after they drafted him.

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Old
03-02-2012, 09:02 AM
  #65
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To be a consistent playoff contender, and to have success once they make the playoffs, the Skins must have at least a good NFL caliber O-line. The Skins don't have that right now. Add a vet guard and a vet RT this offseason and the Skins will be in business.

And the key to counter a great D-line like the Giants have is to pound the **** out of them. The Patriots couldn't do that because that isn't what their offense does. It had nothing to with how good their line was. Spread offense teams don't pound the ball in short yardage, they throw the ball.

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03-02-2012, 09:20 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
You are a broken record with this crap, but we all have our pet peeves.

Winning SB's isn't easy. There is a reason why no HC has won the SB with two different teams. That makes the odds firmly against Shanahan winning one with the Skins, but I would rather Shanahan see the end of his 5 year deal then whatever bull**** alternative LiL Danny would come up with to replace him. Success or failure, whatever team the Skins put on the field after Shanahan's 5 year deal is up will be 10 times better than if Uncle Vinny was running the show during the same 5 year span. That is fact.
It may be a broken record, but it's not crap. It's fact. Unlike the handful of you who have such blind optimism you're still ignoring the many obvious issues, I deal with the facts. The results. As I've said before, you all have this dreamy world planned out where after some mystical 5-year plan, the Redskins will be a contender. I am simply saying I'll believe it when I see it, and the results both on and off the field back that up.

Shanahan has won 6 and 5 games here. He's won one playoff game in the previous 11 years with Denver. Can you imagine if say, the Caps had a longtime coach, who won back to back Cups but then won one playoff series in the next 13 years? I think it's fair to say he'd be under the gun? Facing questions like "has the game passed him by, does he no longer have it, etc?" The man has made questionable moves, dubious statements, and frankly the team looked completely unprepared and confused in several games last season. Even given the "talent" he had to work with, I would have expected some better efforts. They lost some games they should have won.

Sorry to keep bringing the negative facts to light, but as I have said, this franchise doesn't have the benefit of doubt anymore. The franchise has two playoff wins in 19 years....19!! The coach has one in 13. I would love to be proved wrong and see a much improved team over the next couple seasons, before Danny wreaks more havoc as you said. But any optimism I've had has been killed.

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03-02-2012, 09:41 AM
  #67
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I think its fair to say we need a good line. I think its fair to say we need a good QB as well.

One being great should significantly help the other. It's almost the "what came first" dilemma, there is not a set in stone answer. Arguing about it is futile. Especially since a coach can not put it all together easily.

We got our LT. That is the anchor of the line for a RH QB. So it's high time to take a stab at a good hopefully great QB, and that's what we are doing.

Looking back at our recent drafts, outside of the move up to get Campbell (what were you thinking Joe), we haven't mortgaged picks to get a stud QB. I don't mind trying once every 10 years of futility.

Look at all the missing picks there were in recent years, and little to show for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing..._draft_history

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03-02-2012, 10:40 AM
  #68
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1. Anyone who says we're not better off with Shanny or not improving has extreme and irreversible memory loss. This "team" was an EMBARRASSMENT. Forgetting the Swinging Gate nightmare? Forgetting Dan running Darrell Green out of town so he could buy Primetime? Forgetting Vinny the Idiot trading all our draft picks for **** players and signing over the hill vets to golden parachute contracts? The current Redskins are a team, a unit, that is moving forward. We have all of our draft picks for the first time in probably decades (admittedly too lazy to look it up) and we are at least $40 million under the Cap heading into FA. We have an offensive and defensive system that is improving by the week, that will be in it's 3rd year of continuity, and that we are finding the right guys to play in it. I don't know if Shanny will win a SB here, but I do know that they are doing things the way winning teams do it: building from the inside out, valuing the draft, and bringing in character players who are the right fit. Anyone who fails to see improvement is delusional.

2. Our O-line must be better than the Patriots; we beat the Giants twice!

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03-02-2012, 10:54 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molseed View Post
It may be a broken record, but it's not crap. It's fact. Unlike the handful of you who have such blind optimism you're still ignoring the many obvious issues, I deal with the facts. The results. As I've said before, you all have this dreamy world planned out where after some mystical 5-year plan, the Redskins will be a contender. I am simply saying I'll believe it when I see it, and the results both on and off the field back that up.

Shanahan has won 6 and 5 games here. He's won one playoff game in the previous 11 years with Denver. Can you imagine if say, the Caps had a longtime coach, who won back to back Cups but then won one playoff series in the next 13 years? I think it's fair to say he'd be under the gun? Facing questions like "has the game passed him by, does he no longer have it, etc?" The man has made questionable moves, dubious statements, and frankly the team looked completely unprepared and confused in several games last season. Even given the "talent" he had to work with, I would have expected some better efforts. They lost some games they should have won.

Sorry to keep bringing the negative facts to light, but as I have said, this franchise doesn't have the benefit of doubt anymore. The franchise has two playoff wins in 19 years....19!! The coach has one in 13. I would love to be proved wrong and see a much improved team over the next couple seasons, before Danny wreaks more havoc as you said. But any optimism I've had has been killed.
I do not live in a dream world, sorry to disappoint you. I live in the real world. In my world I see a coaching staff and front office in place that is truly NFL caliber. Something this franchise has not had since Gibbs retired the 1st time. What I also see is progress. Progress in building a team that will be capable to compete for the playoffs in the near future. Will that ultimately happen, it's impossible to say, but what is fact is that this team is in better shape after 2 years of Shanahan then at any point in LiL Danny's time as owner. Player salaries are being managed properly, the draft is being used to actually fill needs the coaching staff has identified, and for a 3rd straight year the coaching staff and schemes are intact.

Based on the absolute joke LiL Danny and Uncle Vinny turned this team into after 10 years in charge that is all I care about at this point.

You can harp all you want about Shanahans past. But what cannot be denied is this team is in a better situation with Shanahan calling the shots than Daniel Snyder or Vinny Cerrato. If anyone tries to refute that they are simply jaded, or more likely, clueless.

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03-02-2012, 12:37 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
I do not live in a dream world, sorry to disappoint you. I live in the real world. In my world I see a coaching staff and front office in place that is truly NFL caliber. Something this franchise has not had since Gibbs retired the 1st time. What I also see is progress. Progress in building a team that will be capable to compete for the playoffs in the near future. Will that ultimately happen, it's impossible to say, but what is fact is that this team is in better shape after 2 years of Shanahan then at any point in LiL Danny's time as owner. Player salaries are being managed properly, the draft is being used to actually fill needs the coaching staff has identified, and for a 3rd straight year the coaching staff and schemes are intact.

Based on the absolute joke LiL Danny and Uncle Vinny turned this team into after 10 years in charge that is all I care about at this point.

You can harp all you want about Shanahans past. But what cannot be denied is this team is in a better situation with Shanahan calling the shots than Daniel Snyder or Vinny Cerrato. If anyone tries to refute that they are simply jaded, or more likely, clueless.
Honestly, I want to believe. I want to be optimistic. I want to say hey the guy has won 2 rings. But the real world for now is this. 6 wins. 5 wins. 2 playoff wins in 19 seasons. One playoff win for the coach in 13 seasons. This NFL caliber staff got embarrassed by powerhouses like Carolina, Buffalo, Miami, Minnesota, etc. Key players, despite the statements that Shanahan would run a more professional program, showed what they think of the team and coach by abusing drugs not once but multiple times.

Six straight home losses, in front of crowds that frankly were cheering more for the opponent than the Redskins. An offense that can't do anything except turn the ball over with regularity. A defense that looked great when playing patsies but couldn't stop anybody with a real offense. If this is all progress..well ok.

Shanahan's past is what it is. You don't like me harping on it because it blows a huge hole in this vision of the future. You and others speak of his good drafting, etc. and always conveniently gloss over him handing Philly a 2nd round pick for a has-been of a QB. In fact, his huge mismanagement of the QB position is the biggest reason he gets deserved critisism in the press and blogs. He's botched it three times now, he needs to get it right this time.

Is it a better situation? Honestly I don't think so. Not yet anyway. Because of everything I listed above. The facts are the facts, no matter how ugly they are. I'm looking for progress but really, I just don't see it. Maybe I'll feel better after the draft. Seems like they'll either have a new, young superstar QB to build around, or at least can fill several holes. We will see.

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03-02-2012, 01:12 PM
  #71
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Fred Davis gets the franchise tag

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03-02-2012, 01:35 PM
  #72
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You don't have to spend first rounders to get linemen.

They're found in the 3rd, 4th, 5th and later. You find them off the street when teams can't fit them into the system.

It's not rocket science, but they can get it done without going out and spending on Kalil or another top lineman in the draft.

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03-02-2012, 01:46 PM
  #73
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Fred Davis gets the franchise tag
There you have it....smoke the weed, screw the rules, get a huge bump in salary. Isn't the NFL great? LOL!

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03-02-2012, 01:50 PM
  #74
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If there's one thing I've learned from watching Mrwarden and Bryan23 last night, it's that Mrwarden is well armed with google, fast fingers and a browser. Football knowledge....TBD.

And count me in with Chimaera's camp of finding quality linemen later in the draft. IMO, the first round is for the skill positions, the game changers.

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03-02-2012, 02:12 PM
  #75
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Former Redskins DC Gregg Williams just got the Saints ****ed.

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