HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Ottawa Senators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Why Karlsson will not win the Norris

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-01-2012, 01:22 PM
  #1
Jerk Store
Classless
 
Jerk Store's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Aylmer
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,419
vCash: 500
Why Karlsson will not win the Norris

I am happy and fortunate to have a chance of watching lots of hockey during the season, and I try to be as honest in my assessment of our players and personel when it comes to evaluating talent/performance.

So, with no bias whatsoever, it is clear to me that at this point, Erik Karlsson is the clear favorite for the Norris trophy.

However, as some of you probably heard yesterday, Ottawa's very own Bruce Garrioch said on the airwaves of Team 1200 that to him, Lidstrom was his pick at this point for the Norris. Luckily, Jason York called him out and asked him how many times had he seen Lidstrom play this year, at which point Mr. Garrioch tried to change the subject and then shamefully admitted to seeing him play 1 time live, 3 times on television for a total of 4 times.

So, here's a guy who gets to see what #65 is doing game after game, which to us is very impressive to say the least and is garnering interest from the rest of the hockey world.

With that being said, it clearly shows that writers, in some cases, vote purely based on reputation. But if reputation is stronger than seeing Erik play for 64 games, then I don't see how he can win the award this season.

Now I know Mr. Garrioch is a twit and he's proving it time and time again, but the fact remains that this is someone who holds a vote. So, when we talk about players winning these individual awards, how much weight does it really have? Should the voting system be changed to scouts, or players voting for these awards? To me, players voting Datsyuk the best player in the NHL means more than an award given based on the votes of people who have seen you play 4 times.

Just interested in hearing your thoughts on that as I thought that comment by Garrioch was very interesting yesterday and telling of how this/these awards are granted by people with perhaps a fairly limited amount of knowledge...

Jerk Store is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:27 PM
  #2
Cujomi
YNWA
 
Cujomi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,079
vCash: 500
I think it's kind of ridiculous for any of the awards to be voted on by the writers. Statistical awards are easy, but if anything it should be a split vote of the players coaches and maybe a very very small vote going to fans/writers.

The fact that Karlsson probably won't win the Norris this year despite what he is accomplishing speaks for itself. I watch a lot of hockey (Ottawa, and otherwise when Ottawa isn't playing) and no other defenceman in the league is doing what Karlsson is right now.

Lidstrom shouldn't even be in the top 3 TBQH.

Also I heard the interview as well and I have no idea how Garrioch got a job writing for Hockey. Most of the members on the Sens board could easily do a better job.

Cujomi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:28 PM
  #3
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,878
vCash: 500
Garrioch also wants to prove how objective he is.

NyQuil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:29 PM
  #4
White Goodman
smell that fitness?
 
White Goodman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB
Country: England
Posts: 6,597
vCash: 50
I vote Phanuef.

White Goodman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:30 PM
  #5
WasTeD
Gettn Wiggy wit it
 
WasTeD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: in your head
Country: Equatorial Guinea
Posts: 14,571
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to WasTeD
Plus that article on NHL.com which basically said 'Cant decide who should win Norris? Just give it to Lidstrom then.'

WasTeD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:32 PM
  #6
Flamingo
Registered User
 
Flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,539
vCash: 500
I agree that the hockey writers' opinions seem to be uninformed when I read their arguments against Karlsson winning, namely, (1) he plays less than a minute per game on the PK; and (2) his Quality of Competition index is lower than more deserving defensement.

(1) If you have an offensively talented defenseman, why would you waste his ice time on the PK? He is capable of penalty killing. To wit, Paul Maclean had Erik on the ice for the PK in the last 2 minutes of the game vs. the Bruins. There was no reason to save his ice time for 5-on-5 and for PP that late in the game, and his coach knows he's a great takeaway artist.

(2) His QoC index is 2nd on the team, right behind Kuba's. He's not getting sheltered minutes. In fact, he's put on the ice to defend against other teams' top lines.

I'm not saying he's the most deserving. I can't say that, I haven't watched Lidstrom or Suter this year at all. But it seems like the talking heads have about as much insight as I do about this award.

The argument that makes the least sense to me is, "He doesn't deserve it this year. Let him do it another year, and then he deserves it." This is an award for this season's performance as a stand-alone accomplishment. That comment just shows how some people think it should be awarded on reputation.

Flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:34 PM
  #7
RedWhiteBlackGold
Registered User
 
RedWhiteBlackGold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charlottetown, PE
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,248
vCash: 500
As many people are saying on the main boards it's between Karlsson and Weber.

I haven't watched any Nashville games this year so I can't really comment on Weber's play, but from what I seen of Karlsson he definitely deserves to be in the running.

As for Lidstrom, even Wings fans are saying he's done nothing special this year to be considered for the Norris. If he does somehow win it, then that will just prove that the NHL awards is just based on reputation and not the actual best player for that award.

__________________
http://i60.tinypic.com/2vmddhj.png
RedWhiteBlackGold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:38 PM
  #8
PKC*
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,552
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I am happy and fortunate to have a chance of watching lots of hockey during the season, and I try to be as honest in my assessment of our players and personel when it comes to evaluating talent/performance.

So, with no bias whatsoever, it is clear to me that at this point, Erik Karlsson is the clear favorite for the Norris trophy.

However, as some of you probably heard yesterday, Ottawa's very own Bruce Garrioch said on the airwaves of Team 1200 that to him, Lidstrom was his pick at this point for the Norris. Luckily, Jason York called him out and asked him how many times had he seen Lidstrom play this year, at which point Mr. Garrioch tried to change the subject and then shamefully admitted to seeing him play 1 time live, 3 times on television for a total of 4 times.

So, here's a guy who gets to see what #65 is doing game after game, which to us is very impressive to say the least and is garnering interest from the rest of the hockey world.

With that being said, it clearly shows that writers, in some cases, vote purely based on reputation. But if reputation is stronger than seeing Erik play for 64 games, then I don't see how he can win the award this season.

Now I know Mr. Garrioch is a twit and he's proving it time and time again, but the fact remains that this is someone who holds a vote. So, when we talk about players winning these individual awards, how much weight does it really have? Should the voting system be changed to scouts, or players voting for these awards? To me, players voting Datsyuk the best player in the NHL means more than an award given based on the votes of people who have seen you play 4 times.
Just interested in hearing your thoughts on that as I thought that comment by Garrioch was very interesting yesterday and telling of how this/these awards are granted by people with perhaps a fairly limited amount of knowledge...
Not to nitpick, but many of these players play each other once or twice per year (East vs West), while some conference matchups occur 4 times per year. That's an even smaller sample size than the voters. Maybe the players watch lots of hockey, but it's hard to tell. Especially on nights when they are playing as well as the nominees teams are playing.

PKC* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:39 PM
  #9
Upgrayedd
Registered User
 
Upgrayedd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I am happy and fortunate to have a chance of watching lots of hockey during the season, and I try to be as honest in my assessment of our players and personel when it comes to evaluating talent/performance.

So, with no bias whatsoever, it is clear to me that at this point, Erik Karlsson is the clear favorite for the Norris trophy.

However, as some of you probably heard yesterday, Ottawa's very own Bruce Garrioch said on the airwaves of Team 1200 that to him, Lidstrom was his pick at this point for the Norris. Luckily, Jason York called him out and asked him how many times had he seen Lidstrom play this year, at which point Mr. Garrioch tried to change the subject and then shamefully admitted to seeing him play 1 time live, 3 times on television for a total of 4 times.So, here's a guy who gets to see what #65 is doing game after game, which to us is very impressive to say the least and is garnering interest from the rest of the hockey world.

With that being said, it clearly shows that writers, in some cases, vote purely based on reputation. But if reputation is stronger than seeing Erik play for 64 games, then I don't see how he can win the award this season.

Now I know Mr. Garrioch is a twit and he's proving it time and time again, but the fact remains that this is someone who holds a vote. So, when we talk about players winning these individual awards, how much weight does it really have? Should the voting system be changed to scouts, or players voting for these awards? To me, players voting Datsyuk the best player in the NHL means more than an award given based on the votes of people who have seen you play 4 times.

Just interested in hearing your thoughts on that as I thought that comment by Garrioch was very interesting yesterday and telling of how this/these awards are granted by people with perhaps a fairly limited amount of knowledge...
Heard that as well yesterday, an absolute joke if you ask me and i couldn't agree with your assesment anymore.....said it before will say it again, is there any city in North America where the "head" writer's for the favoured sport in said city are not generally fans of the team? I mean i am not asking for homerish reporting but i this type of stuff happens far to often (god only knows how many players they have pushed out of the city or perhaps players it has stopped from coming to our city via ufa etc...) believe the three amigos at the sun are life long bruins, leafs and habs fans respectively.....so in the end not to shocking!

Upgrayedd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:40 PM
  #10
OgieO
Registered User
 
OgieO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,207
vCash: 500
It should be Karlsson and its not even close. The gap between he and Weber or Chara defensively is waaaaaaay less than the gap between them and him offensively.

The vote should be virtually unanimous, but we all know it won't be.

OgieO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:42 PM
  #11
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,878
vCash: 500
Remember the situation where a Montreal writer voted Theodore 1st and Iginla not even on the ballot and basically handed him the Hart trophy?

NyQuil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:44 PM
  #12
BonkTastic
"Small Sample Size!"
 
BonkTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Jakarta, IDN
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
blah blah blah... I don't see how he can win the award this season, blah blah blah...





... But seriously, I actually agree with you: players Karlsson's age don't win the Norris. Look at last year as a perfect example: Weber was the CLEAR CUT obvious best defenceman, but they gave it to Lidstrom, once again.

Pay your dues, THEN win the award. That's what it's unfortunately come to with a lot of the NHL trophies, to be honest.

BonkTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:45 PM
  #13
FolignoQuantumLeap
A mad Mup
 
FolignoQuantumLeap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: A Blue Box
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,724
vCash: 500
The nominees at this point should be Weber, Chara and Karlsson. Lidstrom isn't really in the conversation. Just reading through Red Wings fans comments, they all think he's taken a significant step back though still a #1 and his team is still amazing. I've even seen a few posts that think Kronwall is their real #1 now.

I'm absolutely not under any illusions as to what sports writers will do if the decision seems difficult though, they will just vote for Lidstrom based on reputation if they don't feel like doing research.

FolignoQuantumLeap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:46 PM
  #14
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,878
vCash: 500
Well, to be Mr. Silver Lining, the fact that he's even being brought up as a favourite for the award is pretty impressive.

My October self is laughing at my current self for even being mildly perturbed about it, with Spezza having his best season ever, Karlsson in Norris territory and Ottawa in a playoff spot.

I 'aint even mad indeed.

NyQuil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:49 PM
  #15
SpezDispenser
Registered User
 
SpezDispenser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 14,547
vCash: 500
I can finally see Karlsson winning the Norris - just based on points alone. He doesn't play much PK though - which is fine for us, but Norris voters take notice of that.

SpezDispenser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 01:52 PM
  #16
WasTeD
Gettn Wiggy wit it
 
WasTeD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: in your head
Country: Equatorial Guinea
Posts: 14,571
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to WasTeD
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Remember the situation where a Montreal writer voted Theodore 1st and Iginla not even on the ballot and basically handed him the Hart trophy?
That was crazy.

Theo did deserve the Hart that year though imo.

WasTeD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:03 PM
  #17
Minister of Offence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 23,748
vCash: 500
He's the only guy that is going to be nominated that is facing articles almost daily about: "Why Erik Karlsson should not win the Norris?"

He holds a 26 point advantage on Weber, yet Weber's offensive marks won't ever be held against him, even if it is relative to Karlsson.

If he wants a chance to win it...he'll have to keep doing what he's doing. His play may have to vault Ottawa to the top of the division (don't count on it)...and with that, he's probably be a plus 20 with a 30 point advantage, atleast, on the next guy.

If Karlsson gives the voters any room to wiggle, they will not vote for him.

Minister of Offence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:05 PM
  #18
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,578
vCash: 500
There is also the stats guys. The guys that just look at stats and vote. I am sure there are a lot of those guys in the media, just like there are a lot of reputation guys. Most points? Get a Hart vote. Most points BY FAR by a defenceman, you get the Norris vote.

Might balance out the votes for Karlsson.

I have to be honest, I watch most of the Senators games, and not that many non Senator games. My judgement on Karlsson is this. He is having BY FAR the best season I have ever seen by a Senators defenceman. His season this year overall, not just in getting lots of points but in dictating the flows of entire games, being the best player on either team in many games, is FAR better then the best of Redden who got some Norris votes and better than Chara as well. In fact he is having the best season I have ever seen by a Senator player and it is not close, better then Alfie or any Pizza Line guys in 05/06 or Chara, or Yashin in his Hart Runner up year, and better then Spezza this year. I can't imagine him getting better, except HE DOES GET BETTER EVERY MONTH!!!!

I said early int he season to my brother that Karlsson is going to be a top 5 player in the World within a few seasons, he is that NOW. Outside of Malkin he could have a legitimate argument to being the best player in the world right now. He is that good. He makes mistakes still and he can be overpowered on defence sometimes, but what he does well, he does better then anyone else.

Save an injury I'll pick him for the Norris and a top 3 finish in points next season, and 95-100 points. Seriously! He is that good.

Karlsson has got better every month of his career, noticeably. I think that he is on a hot streak now but it is not just a hot streak I think, he is actually close to this good of an offensive player as he has been the last 8 games.

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:08 PM
  #19
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,478
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakob Silfverberg View Post
I vote Phanuef.
I think you're on to something there.

"Personally, I think by a country mile he's the best defenceman in the league," Wilson said of Phaneuf. "It's not even close right now. His numbers show that - his plus-minus, we chart scoring chances and his numbers are off the chart there. I think he's comfortable in his own skin, he's comfortable being the captain and he's healthy."

pepty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:09 PM
  #20
Loose Sens
Drafting my Overalls
 
Loose Sens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveChrisNeil View Post
Plus that article on NHL.com which basically said 'Cant decide who should win Norris? Just give it to Lidstrom then.'
That article is ridiculous. If Lidstrom wins it, the media guys are complete morons.

Weber and Chara and Suter should all be ahead of Lidstrom this year and that's without even mentioning Karlsson.

Loose Sens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:10 PM
  #21
Mercurial
#lalala
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,178
vCash: 500
With Lee gone he may see more PK time now, so he can rack up some SH points too.

Mercurial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:12 PM
  #22
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,878
vCash: 500
It's hilarious that, if he had been given the odd SH shift, they'd have to come up with some other easy stat to try and prove his ineligibility.

It's not as if he'd be bad at it.

In fact, with his speed and ability to steal pucks, I imagine he'd be rather good. Better than Gonchar I'd wager.

NyQuil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:18 PM
  #23
Flamingo
Registered User
 
Flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's hilarious that, if he had been given the odd SH shift, they'd have to come up with some other easy stat to try and prove his ineligibility.

It's not as if he'd be bad at it.

In fact, with his speed and ability to steal pucks, I imagine he'd be rather good. Better than Gonchar I'd wager.
He did, in the PK at the end of the last Bruins game. I thought he looked pretty good, owned the play in his corner.

Flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:20 PM
  #24
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NyLand
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
He did, in the PK at the end of the last Bruins game. I thought he looked pretty good, owned the play in his corner.
It was Gonchar in the box.

I saw Sens fans saying that he'd been put out there deliberately at a key point in the game, but with Gilroy as the only other option, it was pretty much a no-brainer.

That being said, he was fine out there, and held out a two-man advantage and preserved a one goal shutout.

NyQuil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 02:21 PM
  #25
Minister of Offence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 23,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's hilarious that, if he had been given the odd SH shift, they'd have to come up with some other easy stat to try and prove his ineligibility.

It's not as if he'd be bad at it.

In fact, with his speed and ability to steal pucks, I imagine he'd be rather good. Better than Gonchar I'd wager.
Good chance you'd be right. We've already seen it. I don't see them handing him 3-4 more minutes a night on top of his 25...unless they do so in the playoffs.

Quote:
"Since we traded (goalie) Brian Elliott away (Feb. 18), we had the No. 1 PK in the NHL," said Carvel. "We were over 90%, which is phenomenal. I don't feel like the media would ever write that story ... look at Ottawa's PK, they're tops in the league since this date, and they're doing it with young kids.

"Obviously, goaltending was the biggest part of it," added Carvel, who also gave credit to the work of Ryan Shannon, Jason Spezza and Erik Karlsson, who he says is a "tremendous" penalty killer. "But again, it just felt like when Brian Elliott was in the net, the whole team struggled.

Minister of Offence is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.