HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top Defensemen - Round 1 Screening Process

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-01-2012, 11:58 AM
  #1
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,636
vCash: 500
HOH Top Defensemen - Round 1 Screening Process

Screening Process

Project administrators sent all Top 80 lists for Round 1 of the project to a group of screeners for approval. The purpose of the screening process was to screen out lists that demonstrated insufficient knowledge or care, or that didn't match the intent of the project according to the consensus of participants.

We had five screeners. Two were non-participants - hockey historian and sometime HOH poster Iain Fyffe and longtime HOH poster EagleBelfour. Three were project participants - Hockey Outsider, reckoning, and seventieslord. Three screeners reviewed each list, and the list was accepted with two votes for approval.

The screeners did not know the identity of the list submitter. Their verdict was given solely on the contents of the list. Project administrators TheDevilMadeMe and overpass knew the identity of the submitters of the lists, and for that reason did not participate in the screening process.

Project administrators informed list submitters if their list listed duplicate players or did not include 80 unique players before submitting the list to screeners.

Screening Criteria

Screeners used the HOH Top 100 Players list created in 2008 as a guide. Any lists that did not contain all defencemen from this list was flagged and was sent back to be reworked. While players from this list did not have to be included in the final list, we wanted to make sure it was for a good reason.

Screeners also rejected lists that, in their opinion, were heavily slanted toward or against certain eras or that failed to consider the full scope of hockey history.

Rejected List 1
Rank Player
1 Nicklas Lidstrom
2 Bobby Orr
3 Ray Bourque
4 Denis Potvin
5 Doug Harvey
6 Red Kelly
7 Chris Chelios
8 Larry Robinson
9 Scott Stevens
10 Brian Leetch
11 Eddie Shore
12 Al MacInnis NHL
13 Slava Fetisov
14 Brad Park
15 Dit Clapper
16 Chris Pronger
17 Paul Coffey
18 Scott Niedermeyer
19 Pierre Pilote
20 Rod Langway
21 Larry Murphy
22 Sprague Cleghorn
23 Earl Siebert
24 Mark Howe
25 Ching Johnson
26 King Clancy
27 Rob Blake
28 Lionel Conacher
29 Zdeno Chara
30 Borje Salming
31 Tim Horton
32 Randy Carlyle
33 Duncan Keith
34 Marcel Pronovost
35 Sergei Zubov
36 Harvey Pulford
37 Babe Seibert
38 Guy Lapointe
39 Brian Rafalski
40 Serge Savard
41 Bill Gadsby
42 Doug Wilson
43 Dan Boyle
44 Butch Bouchard
45 Phil Housley
46 Sergei Gonchar
47 Alexei Kasatonov
48 JC Tremblay
49 Brad McCrimmon
50 Harry Howell
51 Jan Suchy
52 Jacques Laperriere
53 Valeri Vasiliev
54 Jack Stewart
55 Babe Pratt
56 Bill Quackenbush
57 Hod Stuart
58 Frantisek Pospisil
59 Gary Suter
60 Eddie Gerard
61 Adam Foote
62 Derian Hatcher
63 Eric Desjardins
64 Kevin Hatcher
65 Allan Stanley
66 Bill White
67 Pat Stapleton
68 Mattias Ohlund
69 Carl Brewer
70 Vladimir Konstantinov
71 Teppo Numminen
72 Mike Ramsey
73 James Patrick
74 Shea Weber
75 Mike Grant
76 Kimmo Timonen
77 Dion Phaneuf
78 Harry Cameron
79 Calle Johansson
80 Mike Green

Screeners rejected this list for giving insufficient consideration to pre-WWII defencemen and being too slanted towards post-expansion players for the scope of the project. They specifically mentioned that there were no pre-WWII defencemen in the top 10 and only 1 in the top 24.

Rejected List 2
Rank Player
1 Bobby Orr
2 Raymond Bourque
3 Doug Harvey
4 Eddie Shore
5 Nicklas Lidstrom
6 Denis Potvin
7 Larry Robinson
8 Viacheslav Fetisov
9 Chris Chelios
10 Paul Coffey
11 Red Kelly
12 Al MacInnis
13 Scott Stevens
14 Brad Park
15 Scott Niedermayer
16 Brian Leetch
17 Pierre Pilotte
18 Alexander Ragulin
19 Tim Horton
20 Chris Pronger
21 Borje Salming
22 Bill Gadsby
23 Earl Seibert
24 Babe Siebert
25 Dit Clapper
26 King Clancy
27 Larry Murphy
28 Rob Blake
29 Rod Langway
30 Bill Quackenbush
31 Jack Stewart
32 Mark Howe
33 Jacques Laperierre
34 Zdeno Chara
35 Tom Johnson
36 Guy Lapointe
37 Harry Howell
38 Doug Wilson
39 J.C. Tremblay
40 Butch Bouchard
41 Marcel Pronovost
42 Allan Stanley
43 Carl Brewer
44 Serge Savard
45 Ken Reardon
46 Alexander Gusev
47 Sylvio Mantha
48 Sergei Zubov
49 Ching Johnson
50 Hap Day
51 Alexei Kasatonov
52 Randy Carlyle
53 Pat Stapleton
54 Sergei Gonchar
55 Phil Housley
56 Eric Desjardins
57 Ebbie Goodfellow
58 Babe Pratt
59 Teppo Numminen
60 Lionel Conacher
61 Vladimir Konstantinov
62 Jean-Guy Talbot
63 Jimmy Thomson
64 Craig Hartsburg
65 Reijo Ruotsalainen
66 Kevin Lowe
67 Petr Svoboda
68 Brad McCrimmon
69 Stefan Persson
70 Elmer "Moose" Vasko
71 Carol Vadnais
72 Bill White
73 Gary Suter
74 Mathieu Schneider
75 Roman Hamrlik
76 Ted Green
77 Al Iafrate
78 Jim Schoenfeld
79 Ted Harris
80 James Patrick

Screeners rejected this list because it included no pre-NHL defencemen and no defencemen who peaked before the 1926 consolidation, including Sprague Cleghorn. King Clancy was the earliest player listed, and he started his career in 1921.

Rejected List 3
Rank Player
1 Bobby Orr
2 Ray Bourque
3 Doug Harvey
4 Eddie Shore
5 Denis Potvin
6 Red Kelly
7 Nicklas Lidstrom
8 Slava Fetisov
9 Chris Chelios
10 Sprague Cleghorn
11 Pierre Pilote
12 Al MacInnis
13 Paul Coffey
14 Brad Park
15 Larry Robinson
16 Borje Salming
17 Dit Clapper
18 Scott Stevens
19 Jack Stewart
20 Serge Savard
21 Chris Pronger
22 Brian Leetch
23 Tim Horton
24 King Clancy
25 Earl Seibert
26 Rod Langway
27 Lionel Conacher
28 Scott Niedermayer
29 Bill Gadsby
30 Jacques Laperriere
31 Babe Siebert
32 Bill Quackenbush
33 Butch Bouchard
34 Zdeno Chara
35 Ching Johnson
36 Ken Reardon
37 Mark Howe
38 Rob Blake
39 Marcel Pronovost
40 Ebbie Goodfellow
41 Carl Brewer
42 Guy Lapointe
43 Babe Pratt
44 Ted Green
45 Fern Flaman
46 Larry Murphy
47 Allan Stanley
48 Randy Carlyle
49 Jack Crawford
50 Tom Johnson
51 Doug Wilson
52 Art Coulter
53 Leo Boivin
54 Tom Anderson
55 Vlad Konstantinov
56 J.C. Tremblay
57 Harry Howell
58 Eric Desjardins
59 Bill White
60 Red Dutton
61 Harvey Pulford
62 Hap Day
63 Gary Suter
64 Pat Stapleton
65 Sylvio Mantha
66 George Boucher
67 Dickie Boon
68 Flash Hollett
69 Phil Housley
70 Steve Duchesne
71 Sergei Zubov
72 Glen Harmon
73 Rick Ley
74 Gus Mortson
75 Doug Mohns
76 L-E Sjoberg
77 Ted Harris
78 Carol Vadnais
79 Syd Howe
80 Andre Dupont

Screeners rejected this list for not including any non-NHL European defencemen, including Valeri Vasiliev who was listed on the HOH Top 100 Players list, and also noted that it lacked several prominent early era defencemen.

All three authors of the rejected lists revised and resubmitted their lists and participated in the project.

Administrators also provided some minor feedback on some of the lists submitted, based on feedback from screeners.

1. In several cases, noted that a player was listed twice.
2. Suggested that a list was a bit short on pre-1926 players (only three players were listed from that era.)
3. Suggested that a list was short on players born since 1960 in the second half of a list.
4. Suggested that there were a lot of active players in the final 10 places of a list.
5. Asked if Al MacInnis was an intentional omission.
6. Asked if Dit Clapper was an intentional omission.
7. Asked if Jack Stewart was an intentional omission
8. Asked if J. C. Tremblay was an intentional omission.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 12:01 PM
  #2
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,636
vCash: 500
In hindsight we shouldn't have asked about the omissions of Tremblay and Stewart. While both were legitimate oversights, they weren't part of the HOH Top 100 Players list from 2008, and we didn't ask about the omissions of Eddie Gerard, Moose Johnson, and other players.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 12:38 PM
  #3
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 35,476
vCash: 500
The third list is mine. I knew going into the project that I was weak on non-NHL'ers so it wasn't a huge surprise to see it get kicked back for revision. To be honest, it was probably a blessing in disguise as it allowed me some critical time to research and think about players who were less familiar to me.

Here's what I did in revision:

- Moved Lidstrom ahead of Potvin and Kelly -- note that this was around the time of the Bourque vs Lidstrom thread.
- Added Hod Stuart (#16), Eddie Gerard (#36), Vladimir Lutchenko (#49), Valeri Vasiliev (#53), Harry Cameron (#56), Alexander Ragulin (#64), Sergei Gonchar (#74), Brad McCrimmon (#76), Lennart Svedberg (#78), Jan Suchy (#79) and Joe Simpson (#80)
- Dropped Eric Desjardins, Steve Duchesne, Glen Harmon, Rick Ley, Gus Mortson, Doug Mohns, L-E Sjoberg, Ted Harris, Carol Vadnais, Syd Howe, and Andre Dupont.
- Promoted Guy Lapointe, Phil Housley, and Sergei Zubov.
- Demoted Jack Stewart, Larry Murphy and Vladimir Konstantinov.


I'm actually glad I got a second, more careful run at this list. Some of the ones in the 70s and 80s were just goofy because I was running out of ideas (Duchesne? what?) and some of the early-era and Europeans who had been left off were inexcusable.

tarheelhockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 12:44 PM
  #4
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,936
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In hindsight we shouldn't have asked about the omissions of Tremblay and Stewart. While both were legitimate oversights, they weren't part of the HOH Top 100 Players list from 2008, and we didn't ask about the omissions of Eddie Gerard, Moose Johnson, and other players.
Those were specific cases where the two lists were getting sent back for minor revision for having too many (what looked like careless) omissions. We probably shouldn't have given the players by name, though. I don't think either decision affected the final product. At one point, there was a worry that flagging Tremblay that one time and not Gerard might have made him become available before Gerard, but they ended up becoming available in the same round. (When guys like Gerard and Moose Johnson were omitted, it was generally part of a trend involving all pre-NHL players).


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-01-2012 at 12:53 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2012, 12:47 PM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,936
vCash: 500
Quote:
We had five screeners. Two were non-participants - hockey historian and sometime HOH poster Iain Fyffe and longtime HOH poster EagleBelfour. Three were project participants - Hockey Outsider, reckoning, and seventieslord. Three screeners reviewed each list, and the list was accepted with two votes for approval.

The screeners did not know the identity of the list submitter. Their verdict was given solely on the contents of the list. Project administrators TheDevilMadeMe and overpass knew the identity of the submitters of the lists, and for that reason did not participate in the screening process
To clarify on this, Iain Fyffe, EagleBelfour and seventieslord screened the first group of lists. Hockey Outsider and reckoning were added later after their own lists had already been accepted. Iain and EB both accepted seventieslord's list without knowing who it was, so we managed to avoid a conflict of interest in the screening process.

None of the screeners were told which list was mine and which was overpass's

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2012, 12:41 AM
  #6
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,496
vCash: 500
The 1st list was mine and while there are things I would, and did move around, I still feel there was too much effort to make the list "historical" , as opposed to purely "the best"and this had the affect of making the bar much higher for post integration 1992NHL guys to make the final list than pre integration players who played outside of the NHL and in an almost exclusive Canadian NHL.

It makes me wonder how players in the future are going to be treated with the emphasis on all stars and how a player did against his peers, which is obviously more difficult in a fully integrated league than a non integrated one.

Despite these concerns the project was both very enjoyable and informing.

Hardyvan123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2012, 01:22 AM
  #7
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,793
vCash: 500
Damn, I was hoping for some rejected lists with Scott Niedermayer top-3 or Phil Housley top-10.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2012, 06:21 AM
  #8
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,532
vCash: 500
Yeah, there was a distinct lack of entertainingly crazy.
Wasn't there a top 100 players list rejected in one project that listed all 3 of the big stars from the Isles dynasty in the top 10, and Jacques Plante somewhere in the 80s?
I guess everyone involved with this one was actually serious.

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2012, 09:43 AM
  #9
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,636
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Yeah, there was a distinct lack of entertainingly crazy.
Wasn't there a top 100 players list rejected in one project that listed all 3 of the big stars from the Isles dynasty in the top 10, and Jacques Plante somewhere in the 80s?
I guess everyone involved with this one was actually serious.
Yeah, I think having to list 80 defencemen screened out anyone who wasn't serious.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2012, 07:49 PM
  #10
VanIslander
Hope for better 2015
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Here's what I did in revision:

- Added Hod Stuart (#16), Eddie Gerard (#36), Vladimir Lutchenko (#49), Valeri Vasiliev (#53), Harry Cameron (#56), Alexander Ragulin (#64), Sergei Gonchar (#74), Brad McCrimmon (#76), Lennart Svedberg (#78), Jan Suchy (#79) and Joe Simpson (#80)
- Dropped Eric Desjardins, Steve Duchesne, Glen Harmon, Rick Ley, Gus Mortson, Doug Mohns, L-E Sjoberg, Ted Harris, Carol Vadnais, Syd Howe, and Andre Dupont.
Obvious moves in hindsight, eh?

Digging into hockey history sure is an eye opener. The HfBoards History Board and ATD sub-board are great places to spur on one's education into the past of this great sport.

VanIslander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2012, 10:46 PM
  #11
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Evil Empire
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,824
vCash: 500
Interesting to see that Roman Hamrlik's mother submitted a list to the project.

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.