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Who is the "core"?

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Old
03-01-2012, 04:01 PM
  #26
Xoggz22
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What we get for Nash becomes a large part of the core in my opinion. If I'm looking to build something I do it with heart, guts and effort. For that I start with Dorsett and Wiz. There are several players I like but none that have demonstrated the "it" factor yet. I think Moore has started to pick up his physical play and lay it all out on the ice. I don't know enough about JJ yet but suspect he'll be in the group with Wiz and Dorsett.

Whatever we get back for Nash, I think, is intended to define Columbus going forward.

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03-01-2012, 04:09 PM
  #27
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Looks like anyone but Nash

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03-01-2012, 04:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
Considering he has never shown this type of play, Im not sure you can say that.
Lets not get carried away. Brassard looks better than he did, but he's still far from anything sure. He still has 27 points on the year, sure he's been leaps and bounds better than earlier in the year, but he really doesn't look any different than he has in previous years.

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03-01-2012, 04:45 PM
  #29
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Jackets core?
Say no more?
Who's yer friend?
Howson.

I hope the core is youth plus some give-a-damn vets.

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03-01-2012, 04:56 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
Lets not get carried away. Brassard looks better than he did, but he's still far from anything sure. He still has 27 points on the year, sure he's been leaps and bounds better than earlier in the year, but he really doesn't look any different than he has in previous years.
I disagree 100%. Brassard has never looked anything like this.

Currently he is by far the best on the team entering the zone, being creative, finding the open man, and passing.

This is the Brassard we have been waiting for. If he can keep it up he should be part of the core moving forward. With the proper coaching I believe he can keep it up.

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03-01-2012, 07:39 PM
  #31
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I disagree 100%. Brassard has never looked anything like this.

Currently he is by far the best on the team entering the zone, being creative, finding the open man, and passing.

This is the Brassard we have been waiting for. If he can keep it up he should be part of the core moving forward. With the proper coaching I believe he can keep it up.
Well I disagree. Sure he can get the puck in the zone very well, he's great at that, but past that he isn't really that different. His year he got hurt he was much better. Since Arniel was fired he's been on a 50ish point pace, if that is what we were waiting for, we should definitely trade him.

This is a player that is so unpredictable in what you are going to get from him. What happens if they hire a new coach next year and Brassard doesn't respond well like he hasn't multiple times? Keeping him because he can enter the zone is a poor reason to keep a player, if you can get a mid 1st round pick for him I'd do it in a heart beat. He makes a lot of money and only puts up 40-50 points, that just isn't good enough. Even when he is at his best like you think he is, he's still only going to put up around 50 points in a full season. The only difference between him this year and him last year is he shot the puck a few more times.

People get so hung up on the fact he can hit the trailing man, news flash, if you watch every team that plays us, pretty much every player has no trouble hitting the trailing man, that isn't something that is "creative" that's just passing the puck to open man coming from behind. Brassard at his "best" is 50 points, below average defensive zone play, and bad faceoff ability, oh joy, just who I want to consider a core player. When we trade Nash, if we get a center in return Brassard is gone, you can probably count on that. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but that's just how I feel.

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03-01-2012, 07:47 PM
  #32
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agreed doug

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03-01-2012, 08:14 PM
  #33
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The core? Hitch

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03-01-2012, 08:22 PM
  #34
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Nash, RJ, Wiz, JJ ???? I'm not sure who is the core anymore.. Probably the guys that have been around for several years.

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03-01-2012, 08:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
Well I disagree. Sure he can get the puck in the zone very well, he's great at that, but past that he isn't really that different. His year he got hurt he was much better. Since Arniel was fired he's been on a 50ish point pace, if that is what we were waiting for, we should definitely trade him.

This is a player that is so unpredictable in what you are going to get from him. What happens if they hire a new coach next year and Brassard doesn't respond well like he hasn't multiple times? Keeping him because he can enter the zone is a poor reason to keep a player, if you can get a mid 1st round pick for him I'd do it in a heart beat. He makes a lot of money and only puts up 40-50 points, that just isn't good enough. Even when he is at his best like you think he is, he's still only going to put up around 50 points in a full season. The only difference between him this year and him last year is he shot the puck a few more times.

People get so hung up on the fact he can hit the trailing man, news flash, if you watch every team that plays us, pretty much every player has no trouble hitting the trailing man, that isn't something that is "creative" that's just passing the puck to open man coming from behind. Brassard at his "best" is 50 points, below average defensive zone play, and bad faceoff ability, oh joy, just who I want to consider a core player. When we trade Nash, if we get a center in return Brassard is gone, you can probably count on that. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but that's just how I feel.
Respect your opinion but we aren't keeping him for what he is now, but what he is growing to be in the future. Do you plan to ice an AHL offense next year? Can't see that happening.

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03-02-2012, 08:44 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
Well I disagree. Sure he can get the puck in the zone very well, he's great at that, but past that he isn't really that different. His year he got hurt he was much better. Since Arniel was fired he's been on a 50ish point pace, if that is what we were waiting for, we should definitely trade him.

This is a player that is so unpredictable in what you are going to get from him. What happens if they hire a new coach next year and Brassard doesn't respond well like he hasn't multiple times? Keeping him because he can enter the zone is a poor reason to keep a player, if you can get a mid 1st round pick for him I'd do it in a heart beat. He makes a lot of money and only puts up 40-50 points, that just isn't good enough. Even when he is at his best like you think he is, he's still only going to put up around 50 points in a full season. The only difference between him this year and him last year is he shot the puck a few more times.

People get so hung up on the fact he can hit the trailing man, news flash, if you watch every team that plays us, pretty much every player has no trouble hitting the trailing man, that isn't something that is "creative" that's just passing the puck to open man coming from behind. Brassard at his "best" is 50 points, below average defensive zone play, and bad faceoff ability, oh joy, just who I want to consider a core player. When we trade Nash, if we get a center in return Brassard is gone, you can probably count on that. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but that's just how I feel.
I don't think 50 + point centers grow on trees. I may be wrong, didn't check the stats, but gut feel says, if you have one, you keep him. If Johansen develops, assuming he ever gets to play center, Brass as 2nd line center is ok in my book. For the short term, I see him as #1 next year. And once he plays regularly and gets more and more confidence he'll get better.

As to face-offs, I understand conceptually the idea of winning them is good;but we had 3 of the top 5 one year (Vermette,Pahlsson&Manny)-didn't do us much good as i recall. Some stat nut must have the #'s for all teams f/o win %. I will check later to see if i can find. Anyone?

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03-02-2012, 09:01 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
I don't think 50 + point centers grow on trees. I may be wrong, didn't check the stats, but gut feel says, if you have one, you keep him. If Johansen develops, assuming he ever gets to play center, Brass as 2nd line center is ok in my book. For the short term, I see him as #1 next year. And once he plays regularly and gets more and more confidence he'll get better.

As to face-offs, I understand conceptually the idea of winning them is good;but we had 3 of the top 5 one year (Vermette,Pahlsson&Manny)-didn't do us much good as i recall. Some stat nut must have the #'s for all teams f/o win %. I will check later to see if i can find. Anyone?
Last season, 34 of the top 150 NHL centers had 50 points or more, I'd say if Brassard can reach 50 points a season that's excellent.. As you say, they don't grow on trees.

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03-02-2012, 09:06 AM
  #38
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The only issue I have with Brass over the last two+ months is his face offs. He's basically lost two years of development, so he's playing catch up in a lot of aspects of him game. As I said, talk to me about him in another 65 or so games.

His two way game is improving.

I was one of the charter members of the trade Brass bandwagon, however, he is making strides and, for the first time, I feel like he can play in the top six for us and do it fairly well. I'm not sure he can put it all together to be a top line player on a playoff team, but he's certainly capable of more than the 50 points that some are throwing around.

He has earned his salary the last two months.

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03-02-2012, 09:23 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Last season, 34 of the top 150 NHL centers had 50 points or more, I'd say if Brassard can reach 50 points a season that's excellent.. As you say, they don't grow on trees.
Production isn't the only concern, but, yes, his production is approaching second line worthy. For the month of Jan, his prod was around 21 minutes. That's top line worthy. However, he isn't going to keep up a 23% shot percentage either so the number is probably a bit artificial.

When you are only taking around a shot and a half per game (17 in 13 games) it's going to be hard to be a 20 goal scorer.


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03-02-2012, 09:44 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
As to face-offs, I understand conceptually the idea of winning them is good;but we had 3 of the top 5 one year (Vermette,Pahlsson&Manny)-didn't do us much good as i recall. Some stat nut must have the #'s for all teams f/o win %. I will check later to see if i can find. Anyone?
Just point of clarification - Manny and Sammy never were on the team at the same time.

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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
The only issue I have with Brass over the last two+ months is his face offs. He's basically lost two years of development, so he's playing catch up in a lot of aspects of him game. As I said, talk to me about him in another 65 or so games.

His two way game is improving.

I was one of the charter members of the trade Brass bandwagon, however, he is making strides and, for the first time, I feel like he can play in the top six for us and do it fairly well. I'm not sure he can put it all together to be a top line player on a playoff team, but he's certainly capable of more than the 50 points that some are throwing around.

He has earned his salary the last two months.
Agree. As I've posted before, I've never gone as back and forth on a player as I have with Brass. Right now, I guess I'm "forth."

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03-02-2012, 09:45 AM
  #41
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When I think about Core players, it is guys that will be with the team that you can build around, will NOT TRADE, and will play prominant roles. Personally, I think the Jackets will go into a 3 year rebuild and thus the core will change with addition of some real high end guys.

Thinking guys that will be with the team in 3 years as part of the Core- JJ, Johansen, Moore, Tyutin, RJ - based only on the current roster.

I like some of the other guys, but I could see the moved in the right package. Wiz, Atkinson, Savard, Nikitin, Dorsett or their roles will be smaller.

Young core with the right leadership.

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03-02-2012, 10:43 AM
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The only issue I have with Brass over the last two+ months is his face offs. He's basically lost two years of development, so he's playing catch up in a lot of aspects of him game. As I said, talk to me about him in another 65 or so games.

His two way game is improving.

I was one of the charter members of the trade Brass bandwagon, however, he is making strides and, for the first time, I feel like he can play in the top six for us and do it fairly well. I'm not sure he can put it all together to be a top line player on a playoff team, but he's certainly capable of more than the 50 points that some are throwing around.

He has earned his salary the last two months.
good points,

With Brassard, you see these flashes of skill that cause me to reach for the remote and skip back so I can see how he just did that. These flashes are coming more frequently of late, I don't know if that means anything but there is no denying the play making potential is there.

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03-02-2012, 10:52 AM
  #43
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I really like it last night during a faceoff when the Avs player put the blade of his stick in Nash's face and instantly Brassard was in the Avs player face. We need more of that on this team not less, as much as I like Nash I have never seen him do something like that.

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03-02-2012, 11:02 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Just point of clarification - Manny and Sammy never were on the team at the same time.



Agree. As I've posted before, I've never gone as back and forth on a player as I have with Brass. Right now, I guess I'm "forth."

details So maybe it was 2 of top 5?

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03-02-2012, 11:23 AM
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Respect your opinion but we aren't keeping him for what he is now, but what he is growing to be in the future. Do you plan to ice an AHL offense next year? Can't see that happening.
What he is growing to be? What is he growing to be exactly? Is 50 point Brassard going to show up next season finally or is it going to be 36 point Brassard or 28 point Brassard? Is he ever going to actually start being good in the defensive zone? Will he ever approach 50% in faceoff wins? You don't keep a center around because he scored on 47 points in 74 games one season, this "kid" is a veteran 257 NHL games now and yet he's still shown nothing consistently of what he can be. One month he looks like he is going to be a solid 2nd line center, the next month he looks like he got hit by a bus. Your last point about if I think we are going to ice an AHL offense next year, maybe you missed the part where I said that if we get a center back in the Nash trade, I think Brassard will be traded, but that's what I said meaning that without a center in a trade obviously you aren't going to trade your only top 6 skilled center currently on the roster.


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03-02-2012, 12:47 PM
  #46
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I believe with JJ, Wiz & Dorsett you have the beginings of a team identity.
Add to that: Forwards - Brass, Atkinson, Johanson, Yakopov (sacrifice a chicken to the hockey gods for #1 pick)
Defense - Moore and possibly the Russian Mafia (Toots & Nik6)
Add to that a goalie with a mean streak, who will challenge everyone & anyone.

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03-02-2012, 12:59 PM
  #47
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Yakopov (sacrifice a chicken to the hockey gods for #1 pick)
Better get Jobu some Rum. I'm normally against the inferiority complex, but even though it says we have a 49% chance or whatever it feels more like a 5% chance. I'm not sure this team can catch a break. Feels like the only way we get the #1 pick is if Nail ends up being a bust, has a career threatening injury before the draft, or Howson decides to trade it for the next locker room cancer. I don't see how we can ever have a Stamkos or Malkin/Crosby moment with this franchise.

If Nail is going to be a 50 goal scorer in this league, on a semi-consistent basis, it won't be with this franchise.

You get the ASG, your captain wants to leave. You fix the arena deal issue and the NHLPA nixes re-alignment.

I'm waiting for the flip side of getting Jack Johnson, most likely LA misses the playoffs this season and ends up in the Cup finals next year. Meanwhile the player LA drafts this year end up being a franchise player.

This core conversation depresses me when Jack Johnson, Dorsett, Moore, and Atkinson are the only players that I want to be part of our "core". At least from our NHL roster. With all due respect to Prospal, he's a bad start for the team combined with a minor knee injury from calling it a career.

That's not to say a don't find guys like Boll and Nikitin useful, but we're talking about who I want to build around.


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03-02-2012, 08:20 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
I don't think 50 + point centers grow on trees. I may be wrong, didn't check the stats, but gut feel says, if you have one, you keep him. If Johansen develops, assuming he ever gets to play center, Brass as 2nd line center is ok in my book. For the short term, I see him as #1 next year. And once he plays regularly and gets more and more confidence he'll get better.

As to face-offs, I understand conceptually the idea of winning them is good;but we had 3 of the top 5 one year (Vermette,Pahlsson&Manny)-didn't do us much good as i recall. Some stat nut must have the #'s for all teams f/o win %. I will check later to see if i can find. Anyone?
I've always thought face-off win % is an over-rated stat. The Jackets have done well in this category over the last few years and it hasn't translated into wins.

You can see the stats on the nhl.com statistics page. Just sort by the last category. Columbus is 9th in the league right now. The leader is Boston at 54.8% while Calgary is in last at 45.1. So, imagine these two latter team play a game and there's 30 faceoffs. If these averages held, you'd expect Boston to win 16 of the draws while Calgary would win 14. Big whoop...

Interestingly, there was an article on nhl.com today about an analytics conference at MIT: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=620186.

Chiarelli and Burke were there, and here's the quote about faceoffs that was based on some professor's research:

Quote:
The professor told the crowd of more than 300 that winning faceoffs doesn’t statistically drive how many goals a team scores over the course of a season. The mathematical result in this instance is that winning faceoffs doesn’t stand alone as a statistic that predicts scoring goals.
Any hockey fan who knows the candor and opinions of Burke will not be surprised to learn that the Leafs GM declared his disagreement and "he knows a goal can be scored right after a faceoff win" and that he has "seen too many of them lately" against his struggling Toronto club.
Not related to faceoffs, but I really found this comment interesting by Chiarelli:

Quote:
For his part, Chiarelli discussed how he learned in Ottawa’s front office that a young prospect’s weight is a better predictor of NHL success than height. The Senators contracted with a university biology professor to analyze the effect of height and weight on whether a player succeeds as a pro. Chiarelli added that members of Bruins hockey operations staff "recreate events for a statistical model to develop a matrix" of quality scoring chances in both the team’s and opponent’s offensive zones.
Makes you wonder on top of these kinds of statistics the Blue Jackets are.

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03-02-2012, 08:40 PM
  #49
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What he is growing to be? What is he growing to be exactly? Is 50 point Brassard going to show up next season finally or is it going to be 36 point Brassard or 28 point Brassard? Is he ever going to actually start being good in the defensive zone? Will he ever approach 50% in faceoff wins? You don't keep a center around because he scored on 47 points in 74 games one season, this "kid" is a veteran 257 NHL games now and yet he's still shown nothing consistently of what he can be. One month he looks like he is going to be a solid 2nd line center, the next month he looks like he got hit by a bus. Your last point about if I think we are going to ice an AHL offense next year, maybe you missed the part where I said that if we get a center back in the Nash trade, I think Brassard will be traded, but that's what I said meaning that without a center in a trade obviously you aren't going to trade your only top 6 skilled center currently on the roster.
I think Brassard will be a 65 point center if this team ever turns into a contender. He makes the craftyess little skill plays that no one else on the roster makes. And he does it shift after shift. You can't honestly judge him with the ice time he got earlier in the season under Arniel....the guy hated Brass. He has shown compete, heart, skill, and a willingness to step up for his teammates for 2 months now, I want to keep him. The one month he looks like **** the next month he looks good analogy would be fair if he was still getting scratched and playing 4 th line minutes. He has been our best player since Arniel got canned. There is no argument about that.

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03-02-2012, 09:25 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
I've always thought face-off win % is an over-rated stat. The Jackets have done well in this category over the last few years and it hasn't translated into wins.

You can see the stats on the nhl.com statistics page. Just sort by the last category. Columbus is 9th in the league right now. The leader is Boston at 54.8% while Calgary is in last at 45.1. So, imagine these two latter team play a game and there's 30 faceoffs. If these averages held, you'd expect Boston to win 16 of the draws while Calgary would win 14. Big whoop...

Interestingly, there was an article on nhl.com today about an analytics conference at MIT: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=620186.

Chiarelli and Burke were there, and here's the quote about faceoffs that was based on some professor's research:



Not related to faceoffs, but I really found this comment interesting by Chiarelli:



Makes you wonder on top of these kinds of statistics the Blue Jackets are.
Good post. Thanks for the info. I always suspected that f/o's were not that important (at least in the Jackets case)

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