The only thing EJ has over Shattenkirk is that he's more physical, but Shattenkirk has stepped up and shown that he's stronger than his size indicates. Not sure why multiple people have stated EJ plays better D. I completely disagree. Shattenkirk has been rock solid in his own zone (even prior to Hitchcock) and he VERY rarely makes a defensive gaffe. I would say he makes less defensive mistakes than Pietrangelo and that is saying a lot. Shattenkirk's hockey IQ is far above EJ's.
Watched them both a ton, but at this point I have no idea how Shattenkirk is even close in this poll.
Johnson by a wide margin, he's finally showing what he can be as a pro and he's been dynamite since about Christmas....arguably the Avs best player overall.
Shattenkirk is a special player, but he'll never be able to fill all the roles EJ already does...big, physical to go with the ability to skate and move the puck.
I read that as "I have not seen a Blues game since the trade."
The only thing EJ has over Shattenkirk is that he's more physical, but Shattenkirk has stepped up and shown that he's stronger than his size indicates. Not sure why multiple people have stated EJ plays better D. I completely disagree. Shattenkirk has been rock solid in his own zone (even prior to Hitchcock) and he VERY rarely makes a defensive gaffe. I would say he makes less defensive mistakes than Pietrangelo and that is saying a lot. Shattenkirk's hockey IQ is far above EJ's.
Well said!
Shatty's good D is proven out by his team leading and NHL rank 4th in plus / minus.
I know somebody is just going to say that Shatty is just on a better team that EJ and yeah, that's true. But if that's all it means then I guess Seguin, Bergeron, Del Zotto, Lidstrom, and Chara are just on good teams too and their plus /minus does not corrolate to their defensive skill at all.
I read that as "I have not seen a Blues game since the trade."
How many Avs games have you watched?
EJ is by far the better defender in his own zone this season.
Quote:
Either way, it's the people who think EJ will someday be good and think that Shatty is playing better than he actually is versus the people who call it like they see it as fact.
None I take it?
He is already good. He uses his size, strength and skating ability to control the play defensively for us. EJ will strip players of the puck by just shouldering them off it. Then proceed to skate it out of the zone or make the pass up ice for the breakout.
When he looks to carry it into the offensive zone he rarely makes a turnover, he either passes it to someone else if he's prohibited or, more often than not, skates through 2-3 players and establishes the offensive zone. He doesn't have a lot of points because our team was anemic offensively for quite some time and he was focusing on shoring up his game in the defensive end first.
Kirk is great, don't get me wrong. He has the better offensive skills and more accurate shot. His hockey sense is through the roof, has been since we drafted him. But he will never come close to being able to assemble the same overall game EJ has shown us so far because he simply isn't built like that.
The only thing EJ has over Shattenkirk is that he's more physical, but Shattenkirk has stepped up and shown that he's stronger than his size indicates. Not sure why multiple people have stated EJ plays better D. I completely disagree. Shattenkirk has been rock solid in his own zone (even prior to Hitchcock) and he VERY rarely makes a defensive gaffe. I would say he makes less defensive mistakes than Pietrangelo and that is saying a lot. Shattenkirk's hockey IQ is far above EJ's.
Opinions opinions opinions.
You have yours, I have mine and the guy across the room has his.
It's quite possible that multiple people have said it because they share the same opinion. Who knows?
Edit: Also, in my opinion, EJ is better defensively.
This has been a debate for over a year with Avs and Blues fans on both sides.
As of right now (when this thread is posted):
EJ: 4g, 20a, -2
KS: 8g, 23a, +25
Why did you start this thread? This is just a joke. You make us Blues fans look silly by bringing this back up. Trying to win a trade is something I would hope our fan base is beyond.
As a Blues fan, I think EJ will be better then Shatty - because he is more physical and will become a better defensive player. Shatty moves the puck well, but when we get hemmed into the zone, his lack of size and power to win the battle along the wall - playing inch by inch hockey - hurt.
Shatty plays the 2nd most minutes of any d-men and is on the unit usually matched up against other team's first or second lines (which of those depends on overall size and speed of the line). I've watched every game. Where are you getting this intel? I hope it hasn't come from your own observations because you are, indeed, as wrong as you could possibly be.
Ask any Blues fan, his best attribute has been has defensive play this year.
Where am I getting my stats? Behindthenet.com. He gets easy comp and easy zonestarts. There is not question about that. And his PDO was something stupid like 1040.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilthyNote
Well said!
Shatty's good D is proven out by his team leading and NHL rank 4th in plus / minus.
I know somebody is just going to say that Shatty is just on a better team that EJ and yeah, that's true. But if that's all it means then I guess Seguin, Bergeron, Del Zotto, Lidstrom, and Chara are just on good teams too and their plus /minus does not corrolate to their defensive skill at all.
You know why Shatty's +/- leads his team? Because he has a .953 sv% behind him at even strength, best on the Blues.
Johnson, on the other hand, gets a .920sv%. That's a big reason why Shatty's +/- is so much better, in addition to being on a better team.
Shatty plays the 5th weakest competition of Blues defensmen, and gets the highest offensive zone start percentage of any Blues defensemen. There is no denying that he plays the softest minutes on the St. Louis blueline.
Wouldn't the guy who plays the 6th weakest competition being the one playing the softest minutes?
Shatty plays the 5th weakest competition of Blues defensmen, and gets the highest offensive zone start percentage of any Blues defensemen. There is no denying that he plays the softest minutes on the St. Louis blueline.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. At all.
Just going to leave it at that and leave this thread.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. At all.
Just going to leave it at that and leave this thread.
His stats are correct dude. It makes sense to use a smaller Dman like that though. Fun fact: on the Avs Elliott AND EJ have a higher percentage than Kirk due to Hejda and OByrne getting almost all the defensive zone starts. lol.
Wouldn't the guy who plays the 6th weakest competition being the one playing the softest minutes?
And what is PDO?
Just asking.
Well, if you want to be technical, then yes. But Shatty plays against third pairing competition, which makes it much, much easier to hold the zone and get points. And he gets the highest offensive zone starts of any defensemen, so I'd factor that into saying he gets the softest minutes on the blueline in St. Louis.
And PDO is a number that adds one-ice shooting percentage and save percentage for a players goaltender while that player is on the ice. The average PDO is 1000, a .920 sv% and 8% shooting. A player with a PDO significantly higher than 1000 can be considered to be the beneficiary of "luck" over that period of time (in this case this whole season so far), whether it is because of an abnormally high shooting percentage while on ice, or the goaltender has played spectacularly behind a particular player. And PDO invariably will trend toward 1000 as the sample size gets larger.
Shatty has a 1031 PDO so far this season, and EJ only has a 996. Clearly, Shatty has had the benefit of luck, and for that reason has more points and a better plus-minus than he would if he had EJ's bad luck.
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Originally Posted by BlueDream
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. At all.
Just going to leave it at that and leave this thread.
The stats are correct. I just don't think you like what you see because you overrate your player. :rolleyes
If your interested, the advanced numbers on Pietrangelo are amazing. That kid is something absolutely special. I am not anti-Blues, I watch lots of Blues games (because I'm a fan of Backes, Berglund, and Pietrangelo), I just dislike Blues fans overrating Shatty.
Those advanced stats are great and everything, but the bottom line is that Shattenkirk has the 2nd highest TOI/Game on the Blues (and higher than Erik Johnson's as well).
Those advanced stats are great and everything, but the bottom line is that Shattenkirk has the 2nd highest TOI/Game on the Blues (and higher than Erik Johnson's as well).
Obviously time on ice is the best indicator of quality of defensemen. That's why James Wiznewski, Dustin Byfuglian, Nikita Nitkinin, Filip Kuba, Paul Martin, Jordan Leopold, Chris Butler, and Johnny Boychuk play more minutes a game than Shatty.
If you're interested, EJ plays more EV time and PK time than Shatty. The only thing Shatty has on EJ is PP ice time, which are again, the easiest minutes in hockey.
Those advanced stats are great and everything, but the bottom line is that Shattenkirk has the 2nd highest TOI/Game on the Blues (and higher than Erik Johnson's as well).
Lets extrapolate that a little:
AV TOI:21:24
ES TOI:16:55
SH TOI:1:42
PP TOI:2:47
AV TOI:21:03
ES TOI:16:56
SH TOI:1:44
PP TOI:2:22
I'm sure you can guess who is who. But you're telling me there's a major difference? EJ is 2nd in the Avs in ES TOI where Shatty is 4th on the Blues. Both get their fair share of PP time and both are getting 2nd unit PK time. The main difference is ES time. the numbers may be equal, but where they stand on their respective teams aren't. Shatty would be the 4th option in the closing minutes of a tight game. According to the numbers, EJ would be the Avs 2nd option, meaning he will be out there. The Avs have spread the time out amongst dmen pretty darn equally. The lowest is around 15 minutes per game with a high of 21. The Blues on the other hand, have a low of about 16 minutes per game and a high of 24. My point is this: EJ is a #1, Shatty is a #4 with stong offensive talent. He's given every opportunity to succeed offensively, but is still sheltered a little on the defensive side of things. EJ on the other hand leads the Avs. Period.
Obviously time on ice is the best indicator of quality of defensemen. That's why James Wiznewski, Dustin Byfuglian, Nikita Nitkinin, Filip Kuba, Paul Martin, Jordan Leopold, Chris Butler, and Johnny Boychuk play more minutes a game than Shatty.
If you're interested, EJ plays more EV time and PK time than Shatty. The only thing Shatty has on EJ is PP ice time, which are again, the easiest minutes in hockey.
The poster below you pointed out that EJ has 1 more second of ES minutes and 2 more seconds of PP minutes. But my point wasn't to compare EJ's TOI/G vs Shattenkirk's... I threw that note in as a side fact. My point was, Shattenkirk is the 2nd most relied upon defenseman on the Blues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avs1dacup
My point is this: EJ is a #1, Shatty is a #4 with stong offensive talent. He's given every opportunity to succeed offensively, but is still sheltered a little on the defensive side of things. EJ on the other hand leads the Avs. Period.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't checked the stats, but didn't Kyle Quincey takeover as the #1 D for Colorado earlier this season?
Well, if you want to be technical, then yes. But Shatty plays against third pairing competition, which makes it much, much easier to hold the zone and get points. And he gets the highest offensive zone starts of any defensemen, so I'd factor that into saying he gets the softest minutes on the blueline in St. Louis.
And PDO is a number that adds one-ice shooting percentage and save percentage for a players goaltender while that player is on the ice. The average PDO is 1000, a .920 sv% and 8% shooting. A player with a PDO significantly higher than 1000 can be considered to be the beneficiary of "luck" over that period of time (in this case this whole season so far), whether it is because of an abnormally high shooting percentage while on ice, or the goaltender has played spectacularly behind a particular player. And PDO invariably will trend toward 1000 as the sample size gets larger.
Shatty has a 1031 PDO so far this season, and EJ only has a 996. Clearly, Shatty has had the benefit of luck, and for that reason has more points and a better plus-minus than he would if he had EJ's bad luck.
The stats are correct. I just don't think you like what you see because you overrate your player. :rolleyes
If your interested, the advanced numbers on Pietrangelo are amazing. That kid is something absolutely special. I am not anti-Blues, I watch lots of Blues games (because I'm a fan of Backes, Berglund, and Pietrangelo), I just dislike Blues fans overrating Shatty.
This is good application of advanced statistics. If you know where to look and what to look for, advanced stats are very telling of a player's game. There are a few stats that still don't exist that I would like, but I expect that over the next ~20 years they will start recording them too.
Shattenkirk has excelled this season with sheltered minutes. It's simply using an asset to it's fullest ability and good coaching. If you look at plain, layman statistics, he's basically on par or above Pietrangelo for St. Louis; but if you look further into the advanced stats or simply watch and evaluate their games over a large sample, it's quite clear who the more valuable player is.
Shatty is given every opportunity to succeed and he's done just that. He's taken a good situation and excelled with it. However, he hasn't been thrown to the wolves like Pietrangelo has. He is paired with a very solid defender in his own right in Barret Jackman for most of his ES ice, and often placed in favorable situations and matchups that let him spend less time in his zone and more time in the offensive zone. When needed (ie. when St. Louis is trailing in the 3rd period), Shattenkirk pairs with Pietrangelo, again a very good spot to be in for a young defender in Shattenkirk's shoes. He's always had good support this season.
He's always been a very high level puck handler, a good passer, a good, smooth skater, and has an above average shot, especially for his size. But the thing I'm most impressed with is the way his overall game has improved, it really is something impressive now. His stickwork, his skating, his body positioning and angling, are all very much above average now; his game is very similar to Kris Letang's. It's not unreasonable to me to suggest that Shattenkirk can get to that level.
The one downside to his game is that he's good for a dangerous, avoidable turnover about once a game. I'm not sure that's something that goes away with time and experience, more a subset of the way he plays and the passes that he knows he can make.
But I also don't have any doubts that he can now handle tougher minutes, something I wouldn't have said at the start of the season. I would have no troubles mentioning him among the better defenders in the league now. He's really improved noticeably, it's been night and day to me from the start of the season. Ironically, that's when he was putting up all of his "points" and he has slowed down on that front ever since, but I think he's playing real good hockey now.
With Erik Johnson, you have someone who really has all the physical tools to be dominant. He's a good skater, a smooth skater, both backwards and forwards, but not overly fast or quick so he's not flashy. He's a player who can dominate defensively with both his stick and his body, and still learning on both fronts but still much better with his body than his stick. He's always been able to be a physical defender, but he does it smarter now, he's learning when and how to use to his stick. He's got a big shot, a good puck carrier (though he does this too much in the defensive zone, he needs to trust his defense partner more and simple move the puck to him instead of trying to breakout on his own so often), and a decent first pass.
His biggest weakness, in my opinion is that he tries to do too much himself and, as a result, he often holds onto the puck for too long; both in the defensive zone and offensive zone. He also doesn't read the play as well, as quickly as someone like Shattenkirk, which holds him back from being among the truely elite defenders in the league, whereas Shattenkirk lacks Johnson's physical tools. Johnson basically just doesn't move the puck quickly enough, is what my main concern with his game is.
Johnson is a very tempting package, you can see why he went first overall. There isn't much to not like about him as a player, but with his tools, with what he is physically capable of, he does leave me wanting more. He's much better without the puck than he is with the puck, which is likely the opposite of what you would expect in a first overall pick, which is the opposite of Shattenkirk, who is at his best when he's handling and moving the puck.
I like both players, I think they are both underrated.
The poster below you pointed out that EJ has 1 more second of ES minutes and 2 more seconds of PP minutes. But my point wasn't to compare EJ's TOI/G vs Shattenkirk's... I threw that note in as a side fact. My point was, Shattenkirk is the 2nd most relied upon defenseman on the Blues.
He's relied upon to produce in soft minutes, which he has done splendidly, but that doesn't make him a great D-man. If, as he gets older, he can learn to play against at least second tier opponents and can destroy them like he has soft comp, then I will consider him with the class of the league. But until then he is simply a good offensive #4.
A good example of a similar situation fro my team is Jason Demers. At the beginning of last season, he was paired with Kent Huskins (a serviceable #6) and played against soft comp, and he absolutely destroyed them, he was something like a +20 through December.
He was then moved up to the second pairing with Marc-Edouard Vlasic and actually faced some of the hardest minutes on the team. He continued to produce and to dominate territorially, albeit not quite at the level as when facing the soft comp, and in my mind, he was then cemented as a legit #3 guy. (He has had a brutal year so far this season, for whatever reason, but that's besides the point).
When Shatty steps up and performs in hard minutes, he will gain a fan in me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red08
Maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't checked the stats, but didn't Kyle Quincey takeover as the #1 D for Colorado earlier this season?
Quincey? No way. He is slightly better than Johnson offensively, so he got better minutes, but possession-wise EJ is much better.
Also, if you haven't seen EJ from around mid-January up until now, you are in for a surprise. During the summer I think Shatty vs. EJ would be a legit debate, but not now, not with how amazingly EJ has played the past month and a half.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PavelDatsyuk
This is good application of advanced statistics. If you know where to look and what to look for, advanced stats are very telling of a player's game. There are a few stats that still don't exist that I would like, but I expect that over the next ~20 years they will start recording them too.
Shattenkirk has excelled this season with sheltered minutes. It's simply using an asset to it's fullest ability and good coaching. If you look at plain, layman statistics, he's basically on par or above Pietrangelo for St. Louis; but if you look further into the advanced stats or simply watch and evaluate their games over a large sample, it's quite clear who the more valuable player is.
Shatty is given every opportunity to succeed and he's done just that. He's taken a good situation and excelled with it. However, he hasn't been thrown to the wolves like Pietrangelo has. He is paired with a very solid defender in his own right in Barret Jackman for most of his ES ice, and often placed in favorable situations and matchups that let him spend less time in his zone and more time in the offensive zone. When needed (ie. when St. Louis is trailing in the 3rd period), Shattenkirk pairs with Pietrangelo, again a very good spot to be in for a young defender in Shattenkirk's shoes. He's always had good support this season.
He's always been a very high level puck handler, a good passer, a good, smooth skater, and has an above average shot, especially for his size. But the thing I'm most impressed with is the way his overall game has improved, it really is something impressive now. His stickwork, his skating, his body positioning and angling, are all very much above average now; his game is very similar to Kris Letang's. It's not unreasonable to me to suggest that Shattenkirk can get to that level.
The one downside to his game is that he's good for a dangerous, avoidable turnover about once a game. I'm not sure that's something that goes away with time and experience, more a subset of the way he plays and the passes that he knows he can make.
But I also don't have any doubts that he can now handle tougher minutes, something I wouldn't have said at the start of the season. I would have no troubles mentioning him among the better defenders in the league now. He's really improved noticeably, it's been night and day to me from the start of the season. Ironically, that's when he was putting up all of his "points" and he has slowed down on that front ever since, but I think he's playing real good hockey now.
With Erik Johnson, you have someone who really has all the physical tools to be dominant. He's a good skater, a smooth skater, both backwards and forwards, but not overly fast or quick so he's not flashy. He's a player who can dominate defensively with both his stick and his body, and still learning on both fronts but still much better with his body than his stick. He's always been able to be a physical defender, but he does it smarter now, he's learning when and how to use to his stick. He's got a big shot, a good puck carrier (though he does this too much in the defensive zone, he needs to trust his defense partner more and simple move the puck to him instead of trying to breakout on his own so often), and a decent first pass.
His biggest weakness, in my opinion is that he tries to do too much himself and, as a result, he often holds onto the puck for too long; both in the defensive zone and offensive zone. He also doesn't read the play as well, as quickly as someone like Shattenkirk, which holds him back from being among the truely elite defenders in the league, whereas Shattenkirk lacks Johnson's physical tools. Johnson basically just doesn't move the puck quickly enough, is what my main concern with his game is.
Johnson is a very tempting package, you can see why he went first overall. There isn't much to not like about him as a player, but with his tools, with what he is physically capable of, he does leave me wanting more. He's much better without the puck than he is with the puck, which is likely the opposite of what you would expect in a first overall pick, which is the opposite of Shattenkirk, who is at his best when he's handling and moving the puck.
I like both players, I think they are both underrated.
This is an absolutely gorgeous post. Everything I'd like to say except way more eloquent.
Basically it comes down to EJ needs to be smarter and Shatty needs to be more composed defensively.
While that's a good post EJ has addressed your concerns for more than two months now, doing a great job not forcing things, passing the puck away if he can't make something happen, being smart about when he makes his move to separate attacking players from the puck. He's really been astounding for quite some time now. He was forcing things at the start of the year, back when the C was still up for grabs on this team, but ever since they gave it to Duke he has calmed down, simplified his game and started playing progressively more and more dominant. Now he's just playing great.
I think the world of Cap'n Kirk, but EJ's taking care of all of the things people say he needs to, to reach his potential. Unless his game falls apart completely down the stretch EJ's clearly becoming that #1 Dman on pretty regular basis.
