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Old
03-02-2012, 01:16 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yes, because Hodgson and Larsson are in the same tier of players.

Hodgson was named an untouchable by Canucks fans who were enamored with the idea of having a top-end young player. Not because he was actually untouchable. Larsson is pretty much the definition of untouchable in this league: amazingly cheap contract for two more years, even for an ELC, playing extremely well in tough minutes, and the only bright spot on an otherwise average Devils D-core.
so you can, but Canucks fans can't... insert the clip of AV laughing at Vern Fiddler over his "Bieksa-face". *edit - there was actually tears

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:17 AM
  #27
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I don't mean to sound cliche, but that's Phily.

Really... since Hexstall which of their goalies have played upto their potential for more than a single season?
huh? so all the threads and posts from last year regarding Bryz as one of the best goalies in the league don't count anymore because he was sent to Philly? Every goalies perceived talent is removed from the discussion because of where they're playing? Sorry it doesn't work like that.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Mike Smith is having a career year in Phoenix? Elliot for the Blues?

Trap trap trap. Goalies will always appear to be better when their team plays the trap. It's mind boggling how many people overrate goalies in those systems only to see them either fail in a transition one, or take a long time to adapt (see Luongo, and currently Miller)

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:23 AM
  #28
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Well Hodgson was traded for a player with 3 goals - so what does that say about his value? If Hodgson had been traded for a potential #1 D or a young goalie then you would have an argument. As for Bishop you get a goalie the same age as Schneider, ripping up the AHL to a team trying to make the playoffs and who's starter goes down with a freak injury right before the deadline - totally different situation, you can't look at that trade in a vacuum, it was a circumstantial deal. And a mid 2nd is a long ways from having comparable value to a top 5 pick franchise Dman. Hall Gill got more then a 2nd so Bishops value was deemed less then a 3rd pairing dman
Hodgson was traded for a player that has the skill set to be a top 6 winger with a mean nasty edge to his game, not many of these players available who can be top 6 players... Kassian has a lot of value and this was a hockey trade. Lots of teams need a young goalie like Schneider, NJD is one of them with no one in their system. That's fine that your trying to justify that Bishop deal, but I don't see any goalie available with Schneider's skill set being available and many teams in need of what he can bring, TBL, NJD, CBJ, EDM, TOR, CHI, I won't under estimate what Schneider return might be, we don't know but there could easily be a nice bidding war for him.

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03-02-2012, 01:37 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by canuklehead View Post
All whom would be exposed as just another 'Bryz', if ever moved out of the trap systems they play in.

NJ is turning into a transition team, and without a Broduer in the back, it's hard to pull off.
Hey I'm a Canuck fan through and through and if Schneider can bring back a Larsson I'll do a little dance and come back on here and post how wrong I am, but I am pretty confident that I won't need to do that.

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03-02-2012, 01:58 AM
  #30
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Why can't we just go for a solid defensive d-man like Volchenkov?

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03-02-2012, 02:03 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Boondock View Post
Hey I'm a Canuck fan through and through and if Schneider can bring back a Larsson I'll do a little dance and come back on here and post how wrong I am, but I am pretty confident that I won't need to do that.
Fair enough.

And just as you're sick of seeing all the bad trade proposals out there, ie. Raymond + Ballard (as am I), I'm also getting tired of seeing all these "I stopped at ____" or "untouchable" posts, etc.

No one is untouchable if the need and value are there.

I identified the need of a new franchise goalie for NJ and also created the hypothetical that Parise would not be resigning, and created a deal based on that.

I personally believe the value is there, but I'm looking for feedback on that, trying to make it as fair as possible. So I'm open to discussion for tweaking or counter proposals .

Now if people came back and said no, there's been serious talks going on to get Parise signed, he's probably going to stay. Then I'd adjust it according to that. But ruining good fun trade proposals for the "untouchable" reason, is just that, no fun. It's the anti-thesis of what this sub-forum is all about.

/rant

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03-02-2012, 02:10 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BLAME CANADA View Post
Hodgson is on a scoring pace for over 20+ goals in his 1st NHL season at 21 years old, he has top line potential, Hodgson is a high end young player, Larsson has potential to be a #1 D man, Hodgson a #1 centre. I'm not saying your GM would do this but to say Schneider can't bring back a return of a potential #1 D man or a top pick is false as we don't know what he'd bring back. When we add in that a GM has recently came out and said young goalies are the hardest thing to get right now only adds to Schneider's value and we can see this when a UFA AHL goalie in Bishop got a 2nd as a return!!.
Hodgson was on the same developmental path as Logan Couture, except Couture has proven much more (because he's a year older, I understand), and even then I would not call him a lock to be a #1C. I have severe doubts about Hodgson's ability to become a #1C. I think he could become an above average #2C, but I wouldn't count on him putting up 80 points. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I see no evidence that points toward that happening.

Secondly, in regards to Bishop, he was tearing up the AHL, and him being a UFA doesn't mean much; as he hasn't played in the NHL much, he won't command much money and it would be extremely unlikely that Ottawa won't be able to re-sign him. A 2nd in a weak draft doesn't remotely compare to a 19 year old franchise defenseman just drafted 4th overall.

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so you can, but Canucks fans can't... insert the clip of AV laughing at Vern Fiddler over his "Bieksa-face". *edit - there was actually tears
I'm not a Devils fan.

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Old
03-02-2012, 02:23 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by BLAME CANADA View Post
Cody Hodgson not available... oh wait. Schneider is very very talented and in demand young goalie, what a GM will be willing to give up for him we don't know. We Canuck fans had Hodgson in the same untouchable status all those guys and others are looked at by their fans. Even the Sabres GM said that outside trading for young top 6 centre young goalies are the hardest thing to get in the NHL.
This is mostly because young potential franchise #1 d-men almost never move. Even when they do look at the return for a guy who was failing really like Erik Johnson, this is not a good enough package to land a player of Larssen's quality.

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03-02-2012, 02:27 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Hodgson was on the same developmental path as Logan Couture, except Couture has proven much more (because he's a year older, I understand), and even then I would not call him a lock to be a #1C. I have severe doubts about Hodgson's ability to become a #1C. I think he could become an above average #2C, but I wouldn't count on him putting up 80 points. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I see no evidence that points toward that happening.

Secondly, in regards to Bishop, he was tearing up the AHL, and him being a UFA doesn't mean much; as he hasn't played in the NHL much, he won't command much money and it would be extremely unlikely that Ottawa won't be able to re-sign him. A 2nd in a weak draft doesn't remotely compare to a 19 year old franchise defenseman just drafted 4th overall.



I'm not a Devils fan.
Hodgson is putting up 2nd line centre numbers in the NHL NOW in his 1st season, 1st line centre is easily in his reach. Also, how many centres are putting up a ppg? Hodgson can be a solid 2 way 70 pt centre and that's a legit #1 centre. Point is if a UFA AHL goalie with potential can get a 2nd than Schneider's value is much much much higher. We have a GM saying a few days ago that a young #1 goalie is the hardest player to get right now, meaning none are available and with Schneider most likely on the market after the season I'm sure his value will be high, so many teams need him like TOR, TBL, NJD, CBJ, EDM, CHI and teams like PHI might make a move for him if their goaltending keeps being poor and if they can move Bryzgalov or if the new CBA allows to dump a contract, lots of teams could use Schneider and I can see a bidding war for him, supply and demand.

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03-02-2012, 02:35 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
This is mostly because young potential franchise #1 d-men almost never move. Even when they do look at the return for a guy who was failing really like Erik Johnson, this is not a good enough package to land a player of Larssen's quality.
Potential #1 goalies, potential #1 centre and potential #1 D man never move but yet they do if there is a hockey trade to be made, just last season blues traded their young potential #1 D man, this deadline LA sent one away too. I'm not saying you'd trade Larsson, I'm saying I wouldn't beat against Schneider not being able to return a potential #1 D man, although I'd rather trade for a potential # 1 centre with the Sedins contract up in 2 more season, we have Edler as a #1 D and he's young.

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03-02-2012, 02:43 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by BLAME CANADA View Post
Hodgson is putting up 2nd line centre numbers in the NHL NOW in his 1st season, 1st line centre is easily in his reach. Also, how many centres are putting up a ppg? Hodgson can be a solid 2 way 70 pt centre and that's a legit #1 centre. Point is if a UFA AHL goalie with potential can get a 2nd than Schneider's value is much much much higher. We have a GM saying a few days ago that a young #1 goalie is the hardest player to get right now, meaning none are available and with Schneider most likely on the market after the season I'm sure his value will be high, so many teams need him like TOR, TBL, NJD, CBJ, EDM, CHI and teams like PHI might make a move for him if their goaltending keeps being poor and if they can move Bryzgalov or if the new CBA allows to dump a contract, lots of teams could use Schneider and I can see a bidding war for him, supply and demand.
If you think that 40 points is a legit #2C, then you have really low standards for 2nd line centers, which is very confusing considering you have one of the best second line centers in the game.

And yes, Schneider >> Bishop, but Larsson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> late second round pick. That's the point.

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03-02-2012, 02:52 AM
  #37
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If you think that 40 points is a legit #2C, then you have really low standards for 2nd line centers, which is very confusing considering you have one of the best second line centers in the game.

And yes, Schneider >> Bishop, but Larsson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> late second round pick. That's the point.
How many 3rd line centres put up 40+ pts and 20+ goals?... that's 2nd line numbers, considering 50pt season isn't out of reach for him now. I think the difference between Schneider and Bishop is the same as the difference between Larsson and a 2nd. Anyways I'm not going to waste more time arguing this, with a GM coming out and saying young #1 goalies are the hardest thing for GMs to get means Schneider should have a very solid return, I'm happy we still have him on the team great team guy and solid insurance if something happens to Luongo.

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03-02-2012, 02:57 AM
  #38
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Not too bad for Vancouver, I see NJ needs to add a little bit more to make it fair though

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03-02-2012, 03:38 AM
  #39
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How many 3rd line centres put up 40+ pts and 20+ goals?... that's 2nd line numbers, considering 50pt season isn't out of reach for him now.
Jarret Stoll, Frans Nielsen, Lauri Korpikoski, Thomas Kopecky, Eric Belanger, Kyle Brodziak, Dave Bolland, Brian Rolston, Jamie Langenbrunner, Matt Cooke, Brandon Sutter, Dominic Moore, Andrew Cogliano, and Brian Boyle are all third liners that scored around 40 points last season, and there are more that I don't care to list.

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I think the difference between Schneider and Bishop is the same as the difference between Larsson and a 2nd.
Are you ****ing kidding me? So if someone offered you Schneider and a late 2nd for Larsson and Bishop, you'd take it? Well, that clears up a few things...

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Anyways I'm not going to waste more time arguing this, with a GM coming out and saying young #1 goalies are the hardest thing for GMs to get means Schneider should have a very solid return, I'm happy we still have him on the team great team guy and solid insurance if something happens to Luongo.
A GM has also said that a young #1D is the hardest thing to come by and yet another GM has said that a young #1C is the hardest thing to come by. That doesn't mean anything.

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03-02-2012, 04:12 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Jarret Stoll, Frans Nielsen, Lauri Korpikoski, Thomas Kopecky, Eric Belanger, Kyle Brodziak, Dave Bolland, Brian Rolston, Jamie Langenbrunner, Matt Cooke, Brandon Sutter, Dominic Moore, Andrew Cogliano, and Brian Boyle are all third liners that scored around 40 points last season, and there are more that I don't care to list.



Are you ****ing kidding me? So if someone offered you Schneider and a late 2nd for Larsson and Bishop, you'd take it? Well, that clears up a few things...



A GM has also said that a young #1D is the hardest thing to come by and yet another GM has said that a young #1C is the hardest thing to come by. That doesn't mean anything.
Hodgson's is a centre, 20 + goals and a possible 50 pt season is 2nd line numbers, you name a lot of wingers but how about 90 centres playing at a 20 goal possible 50 pt season? this would help your case that Hodgson is putting up 3rd line centre numbers.
I think your picking things out and going way left field with it which is just derailing and makes it pointless to talk to you. I don't think Schneider is worth Larsson, ever said that. What we know is that a GM has said on Monday that young #1 goalies are the hardest thing to get right now, so this means their value is high, just look at the Bishop trade, a 2nd rounder for a AHL UFA goalie with upside, this helps prove my point that Schneider has a ton of value.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:26 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BLAME CANADA View Post
Hodgson's is a centre, 20 + goals and a possible 50 pt season is 2nd line numbers, you name a lot of wingers but how about 90 centres playing at a 20 goal possible 50 pt season? this would help your case that Hodgson is putting up 3rd line centre numbers.
I think your picking things out and going way left field with it which is just derailing and makes it pointless to talk to you. I don't think Schneider is worth Larsson, ever said that. What we know is that a GM has said on Monday that young #1 goalies are the hardest thing to get right now, so this means their value is high, just look at the Bishop trade, a 2nd rounder for a AHL UFA goalie with upside, this helps prove my point that Schneider has a ton of value.
No, my point was that there are lots of 40 point third liners. You were the one that changed your criteria to 50 points arbitrarily even though Hodgson will not put up 50 points this season. Hodgson will likely put up 40 points this season. That puts him at the top-end of third liners. However, he's not a 2nd liner center on any team with playoff hopes, and it's as simple as that.

I completely agree that he has lots of value. He's an excellent goaltender. But at the same time, he's almost 26, has never had a starting job (obviously not his fault because Luongo has been a Vezina candidate), plays behind a very stingy defense (he has stolen games, but the Nucks great D definitely healps), and is a UFA soon. He doesn't have nearly as much value as Adam Larsson and he is not the caliber of player that could even be the main part of a deal for Larsson.

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03-02-2012, 04:42 AM
  #42
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No, my point was that there are lots of 40 point third liners. You were the one that changed your criteria to 50 points arbitrarily even though Hodgson will not put up 50 points this season. Hodgson will likely put up 40 points this season. That puts him at the top-end of third liners. However, he's not a 2nd liner center on any team with playoff hopes, and it's as simple as that.

I completely agree that he has lots of value. He's an excellent goaltender. But at the same time, he's almost 26, has never had a starting job (obviously not his fault because Luongo has been a Vezina candidate), plays behind a very stingy defense (he has stolen games, but the Nucks great D definitely healps), and is a UFA soon. He doesn't have nearly as much value as Adam Larsson and he is not the caliber of player that could even be the main part of a deal for Larsson.
Lets see a list of 90 centres putting up 20+ goals and 40+ pts, this will help your case as 3rd line numbers.

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03-02-2012, 05:19 AM
  #43
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Lets see a list of 90 centres putting up 20+ goals and 40+ pts, this will help your case as 3rd line numbers.
Oh, your one of those that thinks there are exactly 30 first line centers, etc.

Well, last season, the 70 centers put up .5 PPG or higher. That means that the top third of third line centers scored at a 40 point pace. Ergo, a 40 point center is a high-end 3rd line center.

Anything else?

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03-02-2012, 06:27 AM
  #44
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Potential #1 goalies, potential #1 centre and potential #1 D man never move but yet they do if there is a hockey trade to be made, just last season blues traded their young potential #1 D man, this deadline LA sent one away too. I'm not saying you'd trade Larsson, I'm saying I wouldn't beat against Schneider not being able to return a potential #1 D man, although I'd rather trade for a potential # 1 centre with the Sedins contract up in 2 more season, we have Edler as a #1 D and he's young.
Why is age so important? Edler becomes a UFA before H. Sedin.

Henrik is a lot less likely to move given his family situation (both his brother and his wife and kids).

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03-02-2012, 09:06 AM
  #45
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ohhhhhhhhhhhhh boy. Larsson included in trades already?

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03-02-2012, 09:11 AM
  #46
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Just simply if it to this,

NJ trades

Neg rights to Parise, conditional 3rd round pick (turns into a 2nd if the Canucks can't sign Parise before July 1st, Turns into a 1st if Canucks can't sign Parise at all).


to

Canucks for

Cory Schnedier & 5th round pick

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03-02-2012, 09:14 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAME CANADA View Post
Cody Hodgson not available... oh wait. Schneider is very very talented and in demand young goalie, what a GM will be willing to give up for him we don't know. We Canuck fans had Hodgson in the same untouchable status all those guys and others are looked at by their fans. Even the Sabres GM said that outside trading for young top 6 centre young goalies are the hardest thing to get in the NHL.
You're absolutely right. Schneider is very talented and valuable...But recent Goalie trades have proven that the return isn't as Great as you think....

example

Halak (value was extremely high at the time he was traded)

for

Eller
can't remember other player

and

Varlamov

for

future 1st round pick

so..........

Schneider to the Leafs for decent prospect (Holzer) and 2nd rounder or Schneider for 2013 Leafs 1st rounder

or

Schneider to the Oilers for MPS + 3rd round pick or Schneider to the Oilers for 2013 1st rounder.

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03-02-2012, 09:18 AM
  #48
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I have more respect for Devils fans on HF Boards than anyone else.

The amount of RIDICULOUS proposals they have to endure is amazing.

Common sense says The Devils have no interest in moving Larsson for Schneider ++++.

He's a franchise #1 Dman and hes having a fantastic year. His value to the devils is the same as Nashvilles value to Suter/Weber, Chicago's value to Keith/Seabrook, St. Louis value to Pietrangelo etc...

He's not going anywhere

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03-02-2012, 09:28 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
I have more respect for Devils fans on HF Boards than anyone else.

The amount of RIDICULOUS proposals they have to endure is amazing.

Common sense says The Devils have no interest in moving Larsson for Schneider ++++.

He's a franchise #1 Dman and hes having a fantastic year. His value to the devils is the same as Nashvilles value to Suter/Weber, Chicago's value to Keith/Seabrook, St. Louis value to Pietrangelo etc...

He's not going anywhere
Alright alright, Larsson for Weber!

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03-02-2012, 09:30 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waitin425 View Post
You're absolutely right. Schneider is very talented and valuable...But recent Goalie trades have proven that the return isn't as Great as you think....

example

Halak (value was extremely high at the time he was traded)

for

Eller
can't remember other player

and

Varlamov

for

future 1st round pick

so..........

Schneider to the Leafs for decent prospect (Holzer) and 2nd rounder or Schneider for 2013 Leafs 1st rounder

or

Schneider to the Oilers for MPS + 3rd round pick or Schneider to the Oilers for 2013 1st rounder.
Edmonton would pass. Dubnyk is a .907 goalie playing in front of rookies and Cam Barker. I wonder what Schneider's save percentage would look like in the shooting gallery that is Edmonton.

When Schneider gets moved - I'd bet that the return is a 2nd. His situation is closer to Mika Noronen's in Buffalo early in his career.

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