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Old
03-02-2012, 01:13 PM
  #76
Classic Devil
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
3.5 Million for 4 year offer sheet.
Yeap.

Or, 4 years, $3,134,088/year.

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:16 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Yeap.

Or, 4 years, $3,134,088/year.
I edited my initial post to 3 so it was a first and third...But the idea remains the same.

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:22 PM
  #78
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Yikes, that package wouldn't get Larsson alone.

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
The original point was around a goaltender stuck behind a starter, although with E. Lack, the Canucks could be playing the same script as the Buffalo Sabres did.

I watched a great deal of Noronen, because of a player on the team he played on, at the beginning of his career.) From what I've seen, Schenider's shoulders are less of an impact than his excellent lateral movement, and his positional play in the net. He plays deeper in the net than a goalie like Noronen, who's style was influenced by the goaltenders at the time. He broke into the league on the Sabres, who had one of the greatest athletic goalies of all time, Hasek. Noronen fit with the Finnish school of goalies at the time, which allowed a great deal of flexibility to the goalie (e.g. Kipprusoff,) They rely on the defender to clear the puck after a clear stop. Schenider also has a better glove than Noronen did, and uses it to manage the puck better.

I like to follow goaltenders, and you can see from my posting history, I tend to defend them. In my opinion, it's the hardest position in hockey to play, and the one where the team in front has the greatest impact on the statistics. It's also the hardest to evaluate (as evidenced by the "net detective" vezina.) which, in my opinion, is why goaltenders are paid less relative to their contributions to the game.
I agree with most of this, but I still fail to see the reasoning that any of this has to do with Schneider only being worth a 2nd round draft pick. Even if we are gonna play the "Hockeydb Statistics Game"

Schneider's first two seasons in NHL (More than 10 GP):
SV% 0.929 and 0.932
GAA: 2.23 and 2.13
Norrerens first two seasons in NHL (More than 10 GP) :
SV % 0.912 and 0.906
GAA: 2.42 and 2.57
I know goal scoring is down right now but these really aren't even comparable.

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03-02-2012, 01:34 PM
  #80
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I think it's funny that people throw in conditional 1sts if a player doesn't re-sign.

You know what you're getting when you get a pending UFA. If you don't like it, tough ****. You're not going to get picks because you fail to sign a player.

Not to mention, we add Larsson just for the hell of it.

Awful proposal.

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:40 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
The original point was around a goaltender stuck behind a starter, although with E. Lack, the Canucks could be playing the same script as the Buffalo Sabres did.

I watched a great deal of Noronen, because of a player on the team he played on, at the beginning of his career.) From what I've seen, Schenider's shoulders are less of an impact than his excellent lateral movement, and his positional play in the net. He plays deeper in the net than a goalie like Noronen, who's style was influenced by the goaltenders at the time. He broke into the league on the Sabres, who had one of the greatest athletic goalies of all time, Hasek. Noronen fit with the Finnish school of goalies at the time, which allowed a great deal of flexibility to the goalie (e.g. Kipprusoff,) They rely on the defender to clear the puck after a clear stop. Schenider also has a better glove than Noronen did, and uses it to manage the puck better.

I like to follow goaltenders, and you can see from my posting history, I tend to defend them. In my opinion, it's the hardest position in hockey to play, and the one where the team in front has the greatest impact on the statistics. It's also the hardest to evaluate (as evidenced by the "net detective" vezina.) which, in my opinion, is why goaltenders are paid less relative to their contributions to the game.
Since I can see you are actually serious about this you have completely overlooked the fact that the 2 goalies (Schneider and Noronen) are in completely different situations from a team perspective.

Noronen was the 3rd string goalie in Buffalo, playing behind Hasek and Biron, then Biron and Miller. He was never going to be even the primary back up in Buffalo, so he was traded for a 2nd. This is very similar to the recent trade of Ben Bishop, he has potential to be a very good goalie but with Elliott having such a good year and Halak as their apparent starter he wasn't going to get a shot at playing, so he was moved for a 2nd. Kipper was playing behind Nabokov and Toskala and wasn't going to get a shot in SJ so he was traded for a 2nd. After backing up Giguere to a stanley cup, Bryz lost his back up job to Hiller, became the 3rd option in Anaheim and was waived.

Schneider isn't the 3rd string goalie, he is backing up one of the best goalies in the league, and has been so good he has created a situation where people question who the starter should really be on one of the best teams in the NHL. Schneider has emerged as a starter quality goalie, he won't be moved because there are 2 better options ahead of him, he'll be moved so he can be a starter for a team that doesn't have Luongo already signed long term.

So to compare a 3rd string goalie to an emerging starter and try to say that their values are equal is not a legitimate argument or an equal comparison and their trade values won't be equal either

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:46 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Canuckaholic19 View Post
I agree with most of this, but I still fail to see the reasoning that any of this has to do with Schneider only being worth a 2nd round draft pick. Even if we are gonna play the "Hockeydb Statistics Game"

Schneider's first two seasons in NHL (More than 10 GP):
SV% 0.929 and 0.932
GAA: 2.23 and 2.13
Norrerens first two seasons in NHL (More than 10 GP) :
SV % 0.912 and 0.906
GAA: 2.42 and 2.57
I know goal scoring is down right now but these really aren't even comparable.
RFA compensation for a 3m a year contract is a 2nd round pick. The likely scenarios are:
- Vancouver trades Luongo. Can't see any team taking on that contract, but it could happen. Vancouver signs him to a long term deal, and he get's a big payday.
- Schneider signs a one year RFA contract, and is UFA at the end of next season. Get's big payday from a team like Toronto.
- A team looking for a goalie signs him to a muti-year, 3-3.1m offersheet.
- Vancouver trades him, and the team getting him signs him to a big payday to prevent him from going to UFA.

As a GM, if you're going to pay him a UFA wage (or lose him to UFA at the end of next season,) why wouldn't you wait until he's a UFA? You're only going to trade for him if you know you can sign him, and if you know you can sign him, why give up more than the RFA compensation?

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:51 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
RFA compensation for a 3m a year contract is a 2nd round pick. The likely scenarios are:
- Vancouver trades Luongo. Can't see any team taking on that contract, but it could happen. Vancouver signs him to a long term deal, and he get's a big payday.
- Schneider signs a one year RFA contract, and is UFA at the end of next season. Get's big payday from a team like Toronto.
- A team looking for a goalie signs him to a muti-year, 3-3.1m offersheet.
- Vancouver trades him, and the team getting him signs him to a big payday to prevent him from going to UFA.

As a GM, if you're going to pay him a UFA wage (or lose him to UFA at the end of next season,) why wouldn't you wait until he's a UFA? You're only going to trade for him if you know you can sign him, and if you know you can sign him, why give up more than the RFA compensation?
Because Mike Gillis is a capable GM who won't wait for the Schnieder to hit RFA before addressing the situation one way or the other. Teams are going to be outbidding each other for Schneider at the draft, not low balling Gillis.

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:55 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
RFA compensation for a 3m a year contract is a 2nd round pick. The likely scenarios are:
- Vancouver trades Luongo. Can't see any team taking on that contract, but it could happen. Vancouver signs him to a long term deal, and he get's a big payday.
- Schneider signs a one year RFA contract, and is UFA at the end of next season. Get's big payday from a team like Toronto.
- A team looking for a goalie signs him to a muti-year, 3-3.1m offersheet.
- Vancouver trades him, and the team getting him signs him to a big payday to prevent him from going to UFA.

As a GM, if you're going to pay him a UFA wage (or lose him to UFA at the end of next season,) why wouldn't you wait until he's a UFA? You're only going to trade for him if you know you can sign him, and if you know you can sign him, why give up more than the RFA compensation?
Because 28 other GM's may want to jump ahead of you in line and may be willing to trade assets to secure a starting goalie. You wait and he is dealt to someone else then you're out of the playoffs again Toronto, or you waste the last 1-2 good years of St. Louis, Vinny, and Stamkos playing together Mr. Yzerman, or you loose your franchise to Saskatoon because no one wants to watch another brutal year of hockey in Columbus Ohio, or bankruptcy is a b-i-t-c-h to go through Mr. Lou Lamoriello or any other long list of reasons people decide to actually make their team better.

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Old
03-02-2012, 01:59 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Canuckaholic19 View Post
Because Mike Gillis is a capable GM who won't wait for the Schnieder to hit RFA before addressing the situation one way or the other. Teams are going to be outbidding each other for Schneider at the draft, not low balling Gillis.
Which teams do you think will be bidding on him?

What prevents him from being traded to the new team and signing a one year deal to go to UFA? Or, going to the new team, not signing a contract with them, and signing a $3+m RFA contract with one of the other teams bidding for him?

Gillis may be a capable GM, but he doesn't appear to be dealing from a position of strength, here.

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:38 PM
  #86
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a YOUNG goaltender who is capable of playing in big games, steady as a rock, and doesn't get affected with giving up goals, posting a 0.932 sv% against top teams in the league and back ends of back2back games.

Who might target him? In order of pressing needs

Pressing Need :

New Jersey, Brodeur is going to be retiring, soon.
Tampa Bay, they don't really have a real goalie right now,
Philadelphia, Goalie graveyard, could be a top contender right away.
Toronto, a solid goalie away from being a 7/8 seed.

Interested :

Vancouver, surprised? They might want to keep him instead.
Florida, Theodore and Clemmensen? Schneider and Markstrom would be way more promising for this rising team in a weak division.
Washington, Aging Vokoun isn't helping, Neuvirth and Holtby just not ready.
Islanders, they have time to develop Poulin, but Schneider could speed up their chase for a playoff spot replacing aging Nabakov.
Edmonton, a bit better than NYI, Dubnyk shows promises, but Khabbybulin is old and Schneider should make them a 7/8 seed.


Maybe :

Calgary, Kipper is only going to get worse, but then again, Calgary should go for a full rebuild.
Dallas, plenty of cap space, a tandum with Lehtonen would be solid to build around.
Winnipeg, Pavelec is solid, but like Dallas, a tandum would be nice to build around, Schneider is familiar with the organization from Moose days.
Montreal, Price needs something to light a fire under him IMO.
Anaheim, Hiller could be shipped out to Tampa, and Schneider could spearhead a mini-rebuild to give their big3 time to regain form.

They don't really know either :

Columbus, but then again, they are rebuilding, they can afford to let Mason take his time to turn it around or develop a new goalie.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:01 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
Which teams do you think will be bidding on him?

What prevents him from being traded to the new team and signing a one year deal to go to UFA? Or, going to the new team, not signing a contract with them, and signing a $3+m RFA contract with one of the other teams bidding for him?

Gillis may be a capable GM, but he doesn't appear to be dealing from a position of strength, here.
Your 2nd paragraph is ill-conceived. No team that trades for Schneider is going to sign him to a 1 year deal. That offer would never be on the table because it would allow him to walk once the season is done. If Schneider wanted to holdout and not sign anything more than a 1 year deal then he can try, but he really has no leverage to make a team sign him to a 1 year contract. I'm sure he's also looking for a bit more security considering he's only made ~2mil thusfar in his career.

Also, if he's traded to a team and refuses to sign with them, instead signing an offer sheet with someone else, why wouldn't they just match the offer sheet? Like I said, Schneider has no leverage to force a trade to anywhere, force a team to sign him to a 1 year deal, or not permit his team to match any offer sheet that he signs.

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03-02-2012, 04:05 PM
  #88
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This is an absolutely insulting proposal. Our #1 forward, our #1 19 year old defenseman, and conditional picks for that return? This was a joke, right?

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:16 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Campoli2Burrows View Post
Your 2nd paragraph is ill-conceived. No team that trades for Schneider is going to sign him to a 1 year deal. That offer would never be on the table because it would allow him to walk once the season is done. If Schneider wanted to holdout and not sign anything more than a 1 year deal then he can try, but he really has no leverage to make a team sign him to a 1 year contract. I'm sure he's also looking for a bit more security considering he's only made ~2mil thusfar in his career.

In order to keep his rights, a team would have to tender a qualifying offer, as he's an RFA.

The term of any qualifying offer is for one year, and there's nothing stopping him from signing it.

If he wants to be UFA after next season, he's well within his rights to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campoli2Burrows View Post
Also, if he's traded to a team and refuses to sign with them, instead signing an offer sheet with someone else, why wouldn't they just match the offer sheet? Like I said, Schneider has no leverage to force a trade to anywhere, force a team to sign him to a 1 year deal, or not permit his team to match any offer sheet that he signs.
If I were trading for him, I'd ensure that he's ready and willing to sign a long term deal with my club. Right now, he's well within his rights to wait and see if a team is willing to sign a long term RFA offer, or sign the qualifying offer, play out the next season, and sell his services to the highest bidder.

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03-02-2012, 04:19 PM
  #90
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3 Million for 4 year offer sheet. First- and third-round pick
I'm sure there's a few teams thinking this... I'm thinking at least one of these teams will probably decide not to choke on the tail, when eating the dog, and offer a better return at the draft to get him... Personally, I'd love TB to get him... They need him, and they can offer the Canucks an attractive draft pick return... Also, personally, I don't see Schneider signing an offer sheet from NJ... I think there are teams interested in him, and if it gets to that, I think he could get multiple RFA offers... I don't see NJ being on the top of his preferred list...

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03-02-2012, 04:25 PM
  #91
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3 Million for 4 year offer sheet. First- and third-round pick
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Yeap.

Or, 4 years, $3,134,088/year.
Offer sheeting Schneider will not be an option unless the Canucks wish for it to be.

This won't be an option. The Canucks will just take Schneider to arbitration in June, which means that teams will not be able to put an offer to him. Then, if Schneider is traded at the draft, he and his new team can work out a longer term deal.

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03-02-2012, 04:25 PM
  #92
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In order to keep his rights, a team would have to tender a qualifying offer, as he's an RFA.

The term of any qualifying offer is for one year, and there's nothing stopping him from signing it.

If he wants to be UFA after next season, he's well within his rights to do so.

If I were trading for him, I'd ensure that he's ready and willing to sign a long term deal with my club. Right now, he's well within his rights to wait and see if a team is willing to sign a long term RFA offer, or sign the qualifying offer, play out the next season, and sell his services to the highest bidder.
Ahh okay. Signing the qualifying offer to take him to UFA makes sense. However the offer sheet scenario still makes no sense, as I'm sure any team that trades for him would match the offer.

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03-02-2012, 04:26 PM
  #93
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a YOUNG goaltender who is capable of playing in big games, steady as a rock, and doesn't get affected with giving up goals, posting a 0.932 sv% against top teams in the league and back ends of back2back games.

Who might target him? In order of pressing needs

Pressing Need :

New Jersey, Brodeur is going to be retiring, soon.
Tampa Bay, they don't really have a real goalie right now,
Philadelphia, Goalie graveyard, could be a top contender right away.
Toronto, a solid goalie away from being a 7/8 seed.
Good list. Jersey and Toronto, I could see.

Philly can't, with Bryz and Bobrovsky eating the cap. They could demote Bobrovsky (and can't Bryz due to his NMC.) Like the Luongo deal, they're pretty much fixed in place.

Tampa would likely be an attractive free agent destination - I could see Nabokov ending up there at the end of the season.

Toronto is likely near the top of the list.

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03-02-2012, 04:27 PM
  #94
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Offer sheeting Schneider will not be an option unless the Canucks wish for it to be.

This won't be an option. The Canucks will just take Schneider to arbitration in June, which means that teams will not be able to put an offer to him. Then, if Schneider is traded at the draft, he and his new team can work out a longer term deal.
I don't think the Canucks can take him to arbitration until after the period to accept a QO expires. This means there's approximately a one week window in which other teams can offer sheet him before the Canucks can take him to arbitration.

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03-02-2012, 04:47 PM
  #95
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I don't think the Canucks can take him to arbitration until after the period to accept a QO expires. This means there's approximately a one week window in which other teams can offer sheet him before the Canucks can take him to arbitration.
The date for filing for arbitration, I believe, is shortly after the conclusion of the playoffs.

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03-02-2012, 05:49 PM
  #96
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If you want feedback, here are what I see as the fundamental issues with your proposal.

1) If it's for a signed Parise then the value to NJ isn't enough - If Parise isn't signed then it's poor value for the Canucks, so either way it doesn't work 1 way or another.

2) I can't see any way the Canucks can add another 6+ million dollar cap hit to their forward group. We are currently spending right up to the cap, and adding Parise would cripple our ability to add any sort of defensive help, and would force us to move other pieces to get under the cap.

3) NJ was not a good team last year, they had some real serious defensive issues. They draft someone who was believed to be a possible 1st overall calibre player and he's come into NJ and become their #1 D as a 18-19 year old. If NJ trades away Larsson then they have nobody to replace him. After Larsson the Devils have Tallinder, Volchenkov, Green, Salvador, Fayne - it's not a very good defence so NJ can't afford to move him. If he was moved they would need a #1 D replacement and other then Suter there isn't one out there. So NJ could hope they can sign Suter for 6.5-7.5 million a year but then they put themselves in a terrible cap situation. Larsson is playing #1 D and has a cap hit of $925K for the next 3 seasons. However if NJ wanted to go get a goalie there are lots of other options out there, maybe not as good as Schneider, but they won't cost your #1 D. Harding, Vokoun, Bernier, Nabokov could all be available for less then Larsson.

You can't compare the trading of Hodgson with the potential trading of Larsson because the Canucks have 2 better C's signed already. If Hodgson was our #1 C you can bet he wouldn't have been traded. Larsson is NJ's #1 D and they don't have his replacement so player value aside, his positional value is higher to the Devils then Hodgson's was to Vancouver.

So you see there are a lot of issues with the proposal from both sides of the equation and both teams need to be considered in any proposal.
Ya my OP is all based on Parise going to FA, so we are slightly over paying to get Larsson, but the rights to potentially get Parise even it out a bit and make it more likely NJ would do the trade. Possibly adjusting the Cond. picks could balance it out more?

Ya Parise's cap hit could be an issue. But with Booth going the other way to replace Parise, that would be 3.8 + 0.9 from Schnieds + 2.55 from Raymond (assuming he isn't resigned) + 2.0 if Salo retires. It could definitely be doable.

While this is true, Lamoriello has made it clear that they're turning into a transition team. I'd argue that a #1 goalie is more valuable in this system then a #1 d-man. You've seen my recent posts exposing overrated goalies playing in a trap system. If Lamoriello is smart enough to realize this, he might be willing to move Larsson.

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03-02-2012, 05:50 PM
  #97
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This is an absolutely insulting proposal. Our #1 forward, our #1 19 year old defenseman, and conditional picks for that return? This was a joke, right?
You do realize that the proposal is based on the hypothetical, that Parise will NOT be resigned and will test the FA market, right?

It clearly says, the "rights to Parise" in the proposal. There's a big difference.

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03-02-2012, 06:19 PM
  #98
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The date for filing for arbitration, I believe, is shortly after the conclusion of the playoffs.
This has been discussed and verified a lot of time! i can give you link to more info about it.

Schneider can be send to arbitration...(if i remember well)

but in his special case... Arbitration wont protect him form an offer sheet over a window of 1 week. The only way to protect Schneider form an offer sheet is to sign him before July.


And by the way, i really think an offer sheet for more than 1 year is a bad strategy....

A 1 year offersheet leave Schneider as UFA and not many incentive for Vancouver to match it. (Since they cant trade a player for one full year after Matching an offersheet). It also allow Schneider to become UFA and then have a choice of team to go, and get bigger $ is he did perform well.

a 4 year offer sheet? Vancouver match, then trade Schneider summer 2013. (if they can). I dont think Schneider will want to be back to square one and be locked to Vancouver until 2016 unless they trade him.

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03-02-2012, 06:28 PM
  #99
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Because Mike Gillis is a capable GM who won't wait for the Schnieder to hit RFA before addressing the situation one way or the other. Teams are going to be outbidding each other for Schneider at the draft, not low balling Gillis.
But you know what that mean?

The menace of the offersheet could oblige Gillis to trade Schneider to the highest bidder, instead of waiting for a team to accept Vancouver asking price.

In other word: Vancouver will lower his demand for Schneider to make a trade happen, or they face an offer sheet.

The same scenario happened with Halak, the difference Montreal had the option to trade Price and keep Halak. Trading Luongo doesnt seem a likely option to happen.

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03-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #100
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I think the offer sheet mentality is so overblown due to the rarity of their occurence. Every year, people say "Will Yandle be offer sheeted? Weber? Parise? Suter? Doughty? Callahan? Schenn?" And every year, those players aren't offer sheeted.

That being said, with the goalie situation in Vancouver, I think this is one of the exceptions. I do believe Schnieder has a very real chance of being sheeted, but not for a huge deal. Perhaps 3 years, decent money. It puts Vancouver into an interesting spot since they won't get a huge deal in return (maybe a 1st + 3rd) but it's also going to force them to hang onto a essentially underused asset with Luongo being the starter.

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