At first blush that sounds ridiculous. Lidstrom isn't even having that good of a year IMO, and even though White's been a nice surprise it seems pretty clear he misses Rafalski's skill back there a bit.
At second blush, it sounds insane. Karlsson (Ottawa) has 23 more points than the #2 scoring defenseman. He has more than twice as many points as Lidstrom.
I don't think Lidstrom even makes the ballot this year. Hell, I don't think he cracks the top 10. Maybe even top 15.
Someone open a window over at the NHL.com offices.
At first blush that sounds ridiculous. Lidstrom isn't even having that good of a year IMO, and even though White's been a nice surprise it seems pretty clear he misses Rafalski's skill back there a bit.
At second blush, it sounds insane. Karlsson (Ottawa) has 23 more points than the #2 scoring defenseman. He has more than twice as many points as Lidstrom.
I don't think Lidstrom even makes the ballot this year. Hell, I don't think he cracks the top 10. Maybe even top 15.
Someone open a window over at the NHL.com offices.
Karlsson is having a great year at defense and that shouldn't be taken away from him but at the same time having the most points as a defenseman doesn't mean you'll win. Just ask Mike Green two years ago when he lost to Zdeno Chara...
I think Karlsson might win this year, defensively he is okay, his plus plus/minus has gone up in recent weeks and he is top 10 in ice time.
Ugh! Forgot to mention about Lidstrom...he's having a good year not incredible but still good. Overall I think he comes in 3rd or 4th. Karlsson, Chara, Weber, Edler and even Girardi are having excellent defensive seasons and could also be given nods.
Bigger thing is a poster on the Mlive forums (I know I shouldn't worry about it) posted that Datsyuk could be "out indefinitely" and possibly for the remainder of the season and first round of the playoffs. I usually don't believe these things but you always have to wonder since he hasn't started skating yet...
Last edited by Animus: 03-02-2012 at 09:52 AM.
Reason: being an idiot
People have no business talking him up.
It's funny, because out side of the first six-eight weeks of the season last year, when Lidstrom was was scarygood with the puck on his stick in the offensive end, he had no business winning it last year.
The only people who are talking him up as a Norris winner are those on the fanboy fringe and some people who just want to say they've seen someone win the Norris for an 8th time
I would be shocked if Karlsson doesn't win it. It's not like he's horrible defensively (his speed really neutralizes the opposition) and his offensive output has been insane so far. He's better than Mike Green was, he is the main reason why Ottawa is doing this well.
Lidstrom probably shouldn't win this year. His peripheral numbers are outstanding, arguably the best of anyone but his scoring numbers are far below what you expect from him.
That said, Karlsson in no way should win the Norris. He's a PK nonfactor and his peripheral ES numbers are actually very subpar on the defensive side. If not for his crazy scoring season his +/- wouldn't be good whatsoever. He might get lots of support from the Canadian media but I think he's about 1-3 years away from really cleaning up his overall game to be a Norris winner. I'd take Pietrangelo over Karlsson for this season only on a playoff run to be perfectly honest.
People have no business talking him up.
It's funny, because out side of the first six-eight weeks of the season last year, when Lidstrom was was scarygood with the puck on his stick in the offensive end, he had no business winning it last year.
The only people who are talking him up as a Norris winner are those on the fanboy fringe and some people who just want to say they've seen someone win the Norris for an 8th time
That said, I haven't seen a respected writer yet to have him outside of the top4. Many have him top3. A few have him as the winner. So he could be a finalist. The only four guys regularly getting voices for the Norris are Karlsson, Weber, Chara and Nick. One of the two former will likely win it, Chara and Nick will compete for the last finalist spot.
The real funny thing is that Lidstrom, at age 41, would run away with the trophy this year if he actually had a normal (offensive) season. I'm convinced he can actually "rebound" and win it next year if he comes back. And there's still no other defender I would rather take for the playoffs.
If he wins, all Norris votes should be revoked. I'd define him as steady or good this year but not the flawless and incomparable player he typically is when he wins that award. I'd go with Weber or Chara right now. Karlsson is the Mike Green of this year. He'd have to put up Paul Coffey-as-an-Oiler numbers to win the award.
That said, Karlsson in no way should win the Norris. He's a PK nonfactor and his peripheral ES numbers are actually very subpar on the defensive side. If not for his crazy scoring season his +/- wouldn't be good whatsoever.
So if the guy wasn't being elite offensively he'd be a lesser player?
Look, if Karlsson is 20-30 points ahead of the next highest scoring defenseman... forget about it. That much offensive dominance covers up for pretty much anything else.
Post-lockout the biggest spread between #1 and #2 in D scoring was nine points. Between 2001-2004 the biggest spread was 4 or 5 points.
The most points any dman has scored in the last decade was Lidstrom's 80. Karlsson is on pace for 85.
Quote:
He might get lots of support from the Canadian media but I think he's about 1-3 years away from really cleaning up his overall game to be a Norris winner. I'd take Pietrangelo over Karlsson for this season only on a playoff run to be perfectly honest.
Enh. Pietrangelo isn't wildly better than Shattenkirk, if he's better at all. And Shattenkirk isn't fabulous. IMO we've got a POS situation going on in STL with regards to their dmen. When the team doesn't ask it's players to do much beyond play tight D, it's much harder to get a read on what they could do in a more demanding, more balanced system.
i did not think he should have been a finalist last season. i don't think he has been much different this season, other than less scoring.
i think playing with a faster puck mover like white has really helped him in transitioning out of the defensive zone, and playing more with datsyuk instead of zetterberg has also helped. datsyuk controls play more than zetterberg and is a better backchecker, b/c of his greater speed.
pietrangelo is easily better than shattenkirk, and is probably as good as lidstrom now, imo.
It's funny how the Montreal game created this hype when we played the first game of the season without Lidström and lost 1-7. Everybody was watching it because it was the only game that day towards the All-Star break. Everybody was talkin "is he really that good?"
Still, his qualcomp is the highest in the league and he's there leading the plusminus. He is so damn good.
So if the guy wasn't being elite offensively he'd be a lesser player?
Look, if Karlsson is 20-30 points ahead of the next highest scoring defenseman... forget about it. That much offensive dominance covers up for pretty much anything else.
Post-lockout the biggest spread between #1 and #2 in D scoring was nine points. Between 2001-2004 the biggest spread was 4 or 5 points.
The most points any dman has scored in the last decade was Lidstrom's 80. Karlsson is on pace for 85.
Enh. Pietrangelo isn't wildly better than Shattenkirk, if he's better at all. And Shattenkirk isn't fabulous. IMO we've got a POS situation going on in STL with regards to their dmen. When the team doesn't ask it's players to do much beyond play tight D, it's much harder to get a read on what they could do in a more demanding, more balanced system.
Agreed about the point difference thing, Green never stood out against his peers in that regard the way Karlsson does this season. I can see people having different views on how good allround Karlsson is. However, I don't understand people calling Letang a great two-way D if they only think Karlsson can play offense. Karlsson and Letang play their position virtually the exact same way. Both make up for their size with great speed and stickwork, both jump in on offense at every chance. Letang has been in the league for longer, so his learning curve might be a step ahead, but that's a marginal difference. Put on a Pens game and then a Sens game and you'll see what I'm talking about.
As for Pietrangelo, it's not exactly hard to look good defensively on this year's St. Louis. But he's no doubt a really fine young player. I'm looking forward to see his game in the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr
i did not think he should have been a finalist last season. i don't think he has been much different this season, other than less scoring.
i think playing with a faster puck mover like white has really helped him in transitioning out of the defensive zone, and playing more with datsyuk instead of zetterberg has also helped. datsyuk controls play more than zetterberg and is a better backchecker, b/c of his greater speed.
pietrangelo is easily better than shattenkirk, and is probably as good as lidstrom now, imo.
Really? This is equal to saying you would rather have Pietrangelo for the playoffs. Don't think so. Don't think I'd take Pietrangelo among the top15.
Yep, Karlsson is much, much better than Mike Green. There's no way he doesn't win this year. I'd love to see Lids tie Bobby Orr but it ain't happening this year.
Yep, Karlsson is much, much better than Mike Green. There's no way he doesn't win this year. I'd love to see Lids tie Bobby Orr but it ain't happening this year.
There's 20 games left so nothing is guaranteed yet.
