He's no Shane Doan. Shane Doan yells and bangs his stick.
Well, I really don't want to get trolled into one of these things,,, but looks like you and HIHD are gonna get your way
And then later you'll complain about all of it, when you provoke it
So, is Lidstrom one of the great captains/leaders in NHL history?
Would you say he compares some of the greats in recent memory? The Yzermans/Messiers/Stevens
Well, I really don't want to get trolled into one of these things,,, but looks like you and HIHD are gonna get your way
And then later you'll complain about all of it, when you provoke it
So, is Lidstrom one of the great captains/leaders in NHL history?
Would you say he compares some of the greats in recent memory? The Yzermans/Messiers/Stevens
Haha. There's no way to quantify it one way or another. Is Iginla a better leader than Lidstrom? Is he better because he fights? I don't think it's possible to say one way or another.
So, is Lidstrom one of the great captains/leaders in NHL history?
Would you say he compares some of the greats in recent memory? The Yzermans/Messiers/Stevens
Wow...didnt know that about you. You dont think Lidstrom is a great leader? Really?
Everyone has their "thang", man. That one is allllll yours. Own it.
Really? This is equal to saying you would rather have Pietrangelo for the playoffs. Don't think so. Don't think I'd take Pietrangelo among the top15.
main reason i probably would not pick pietrangelo before lidstrom for the playoffs is that i don't know how pietrangelo would fit here.
they are very similar players, but pietrangelo is faster (lidstrom's slowness is a big reason for his defensive decline) and more physical.
pietrangelo clearly is very skilled, and actually has more points than lidstrom, even though he plays with less talented players and for a lower scoring team.
PP is an important question. lidstrom has been a great PP QB for a long time. pietrangelo seems to have the ability, but STL does not have good weapons for PP, and i would like to see how pietrangelo would do with datsyuk, zetterberg, franzen, kronwall.
So if the guy wasn't being elite offensively he'd be a lesser player?
Look, if Karlsson is 20-30 points ahead of the next highest scoring defenseman... forget about it. That much offensive dominance covers up for pretty much anything else.
Yes he would be viewed as a much lesser player, and rightly so. I also disagree that offensive dominance covers up everything. If you play as a 4th forward, a la Mike Green, and rack up impressive offensive numbers that doesn't mean overall you are the most effective defenseman at helping your team win. Nor does it mean you can be relied upon to preserve a 1 goal lead. I finally went ahead and put numbers to my observations:
Karlsson has been impressive and factored into a ton of his teams ES scoring. But he's also been pretty subpar defensively, and against pretty weak quality of competition compared to other top tier defenseman. To me, no matter how amazing his offensive season is that's a big knock against a guy when you can only really count on him in one phase of the game (scoring/PP) and not the other equally important one (defense/PK).
For my money, Shea Weber has had the most impressive season so far and against significantly tougher competition, almost twice as difficult on the matchups at ES as Karlsson.
EDIT: It's also kinda fun to compare it against the 3/21/09 thread.
Last edited by FissionFire: 03-02-2012 at 02:45 PM.
At first blush that sounds ridiculous. Lidstrom isn't even having that good of a year IMO, and even though White's been a nice surprise it seems pretty clear he misses Rafalski's skill back there a bit.
At second blush, it sounds insane. Karlsson (Ottawa) has 23 more points than the #2 scoring defenseman. He has more than twice as many points as Lidstrom.
I don't think Lidstrom even makes the ballot this year. Hell, I don't think he cracks the top 10. Maybe even top 15.
Someone open a window over at the NHL.com offices.
Not even Top 15? LMMFAO
This just in: Norris judges now casting votes solely on points. Nick still plays better D than Chara or Weber and they're his only competition. They'll give it to Weber though, or maybe Chara.
I'll be honest, I lose hockey respect whenever I see someone mention Karlsson for the Norris. The guy can't play D. He's just another Green, Gonchar, Buttfuglien, etc.
Not happening. Weber or Chara are probably the top contenders. Not that Lidstrom isn't having a solid season, but in no way does he deserve to even be nominated.
Well, I really don't want to get trolled into one of these things,,, but looks like you and HIHD are gonna get your way
And then later you'll complain about all of it, when you provoke it
So, is Lidstrom one of the great captains/leaders in NHL history?
Would you say he compares some of the greats in recent memory? The Yzermans/Messiers/Stevens
Outside of a few guys like, like Messier and Yzerman among a few others, its incredibly difficult to say if someone is a better leader than another. We have no idea what goes on in the locker room or on the bench really. The only thing we can see is if the team wins or not
Is Lidstrom going to go down as one of the best leaders in the NHL? No, I highly doubt it. But, was he the natural choice for a successor after Yzerman? Yeah, I think so. And my assumption is that he provides the type of leadership right for this team.
Also, no way he wins another Norris, and he doesn't deserve it. I think he's still playing great and, at least defensively, I think he's actually looked better than last year. But he didn't deserve it last year either, that was more of a farewell present from the NHL
Yeah Lidstrom will finish top 5 in voting for sure, maybe top 3. He's been superb at ES this year, statistically the best D in the league and against the 5th toughest competition. That might even be enough to get him into the top 3. What will kill his chances of winning this year are his low personal scoring numbers (despite impressive team scoring numbers when he's on the ice) and what can only be described as a pretty average (possibly even subpar) season for him on the PK.
Also, no way he wins another Norris, and he doesn't deserve it. I think he's still playing great and, at least defensively, I think he's actually looked better than last year. But he didn't deserve it last year either, that was more of a farewell present from the NHL
What I don't get about sports forums is if you claim certain officials aren't totally unbiased, you get called a conspiracy theorist. But if you post something like this, equally speculative and unfounded, no one cares. It's obvious why but it's still frustrating. He played better defense than everyone else last season. That's why he won. Points win the Art Ross. Defense wins the Norris. If that ever changes I will lose faith in the voters committee. I already question what's so special about the opinion of these voters. They let anyone vote. Puck Daddy has a vote. Gimme a break.
Realistically Nick should have 9 or maybe 10. He was snubbed two or three times before they finally decided to give him one.
What I don't get about sports forums is if you claim certain officials aren't totally unbiased, you get called a conspiracy theorist. But if you post something like this, equally speculative and unfounded, no one cares. It's obvious why but it's still frustrating. He played better defense than everyone else last season. That's why he won. Points win the Art Ross. Defense wins the Norris. If that ever changes I will lose faith in the voters committee. I already question what's so special about the opinion of these voters. They let anyone vote. Puck Daddy has a vote. Gimme a break.
Realistically Nick should have 9 or maybe 10. He was snubbed two or three times before they finally decided to give him one.
Nick played good enough to be a finalist, get some votes, etc. But if his name isn't Nick freakin' Lidstrom no way he wins.
And yeah, he probably deserved some in the 90's, that was more the people being stupid and not realizing that he's an amazing player despite the fact he doesn't throw crushing body checks.
Wow...didnt know that about you. You dont think Lidstrom is a great leader? Really?
Everyone has their "thang", man. That one is allllll yours. Own it.
No, I don't. I think he's a great player. I think he's a leader the I think Larry Murphy was a leader. Great player. Leads by example. Calming presence. All important things. And certainly leading by example is important.
But the guy you follow into hell and think he'll lead you back, safe and sound? Not really.
I didn't think Yzerman was the great captain everyone said he was until 2002.
I've not heard or read much that gives me reason to believe he's a great leader in the clubhouse, either.
This is not to say that he's a bad leader. Or that he's not a good leader.
But based on what I know, I wouldn't list him as a great leader.
Then why didn't he win two years before that? He deserved it in 08-09 and they gave it to a guy who clearly was second best.
Why don't we just admit that these voters can't possibly watch the majority of the nominees' games? It's not humanly possible, they all have lives and jobs most probably have families. They go off of reputation and a handful of viewings just like most fans do. No one wants to admit that. Admitting it would be tantamount to discrediting the entire NHL awards and erasing everything we think we know about the winners. Another thing we won't admit is sports journalism isn't exactly impressive. You're not hired for hockey knowledge in most places, you're hired for a variety of other reasons more important to the website/publisher. They're letting two-bit welfare blog writers vote now. I don't for the life of me understand why we let their opinions dictate ours so much.
I don't think so. He hasn't made an awful lot of mistakes or anything, but he's become much slower and he's had some worse-than-average games I don't recall him having last year or so. However, he's still a major offensive and defensive asset. I've got a feeling that Karlsson will win the Norris, not that I agree with it though.
i think lidstrom should have won in '09, but certainly not last season.
Agreed. You can't overstate his sustained level of excellence and his impact on the Wings organization as a stabilizing force on the back end, but IMO he was given last year's Norris as a lifetime achievement award- I don't think he should have won.
I think Vladdie got robbed his last season.
Lids was deserving of at least one, maybe two, before he won.
But since then, he's picked up at least two on reputation.
Suggesting he should have 9 or 10 is bloody ridiculous.
+1
2002 arguably could have gone to Chelios for example. I think at the end of the day Lidstrom has won as many Norris trophies as he deserves. He could have won more for sure, not that he deserves more, and he could also have won fewer. 7 seems about right given his consistency over the years.
So, is Lidstrom one of the great captains/leaders in NHL history?
Would you say he compares some of the greats in recent memory? The Yzermans/Messiers/Stevens
Can someone be a good leader without being a great leader?
I think he might get nominated this year, but that's it. He's been good, but not shutting down the best players night in and night out. He's actually had a couple of bad games (that game against Chicago comes to mind), but as Detroit fans, we're also incredibly spoiled with Lids. He's 41, and if he has a bad game, he's still better than a lot of defensemen in this league.
