I think Vladdie got robbed his last season.
Lids was deserving of at least one, maybe two, before he won.
But since then, he's picked up at least two on reputation.
Suggesting he should have 9 or 10 is bloody ridiculous.
only i would say lidstrom won on reputation was '11.
he was definitely helped by injuries to pronger, though. imo, pronger most likely would have won in '01 and '07 if not for injuries.
imo, pronger's results in norris and post season all star voting are not commensurate with his level of play. especially in '06 and '10.
i don't think konstantinov was ever robbed of a norris. that was when leetch was still a pretty good defensive player, and he more than doubled konstantinov's scoring. they had different roles, though.
konstantinov finished 2nd in norris voting in '97, but only 5th in all star voting, which is very strange.
So if the guy wasn't being elite offensively he'd be a lesser player?
Look, if Karlsson is 20-30 points ahead of the next highest scoring defenseman... forget about it. That much offensive dominance covers up for pretty much anything else.
Is he elite defensively? Even well above average? Because that kind of matters concerning the actual award.
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Originally Posted by NHL.com
The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position.
i don't think konstantinov was ever robbed of a norris. that was when leetch was still a pretty good defensive player, and he more than doubled konstantinov's scoring. they had different roles, though.
konstantinov finished 2nd in norris voting in '97, but only 5th in all star voting, which is very strange.
Konstantinov had ridiculous +60 on that season. Even though Leetch won it, that was quite impressive stat.
Konstantinov had ridiculous +60 on that season. Even though Leetch won it, that was quite impressive stat.
Konstantinov was pretty special that year.
His offensive skills were far better than his numbers let on, in part because of his role.
His defensive game was superb.
His hitting was a constant storyline.
Check out that glorious statline:
14 goals 34 points 139 PIM +60
Really awesome considering he got the leftover minutes on the PP and was often out there for defensive assignments
If he wins, all Norris votes should be revoked. I'd define him as steady or good this year but not the flawless and incomparable player he typically is when he wins that award. I'd go with Weber or Chara right now. Karlsson is the Mike Green of this year. He'd have to put up Paul Coffey-as-an-Oiler numbers to win the award.
They have not impressed me more that Lids this year though. None of them are perfect and they all get beat. I think Lidstrom will win it this year as long as he doesn't miss many more games.
Is he elite defensively? Even well above average? Because that kind of matters concerning the actual award.
It does, but as I said if Karlsson is going to be that dominant offensively, he doesn't need to be that renowned defensively.
Green couldn't just float by on offense when he was only 3 or 4 points ahead of the guys behind him. If Karlsson remains 20+ points ahead of the guys behind him though, that's different. It would be like a forward who was 30-40 points clear of the rest of the league in scoring with regards to the MVP debate considering that forwards score more than dmen.
Lidstrom is not going to win this year (it's going to be Karlsson or Weber), but it's funny to see people claim if he did it would be on "reputation", then throw out Chara's name as a top contender. He's not having any better of a season this year as Lidstrom and his name being among the "contenders" is, like Lidstrom's, is a combination of past seasons and the fact that outside of the top two guys no one is having a really great season. Third place behind Karlsson and Weber could very credibly go to at least a half-dozen guys. I'm guessing Lidstrom and Chara will be the 2nd team all-stars this year.
I agree he does not deserve it this year, but he was robbed for three years before finally winning his first. Same with Konstantinov (should have had both 96 and 97, don't care about Leetch's and Borque's achievements, Vladdy was THE man).
Yes he would be viewed as a much lesser player, and rightly so.
I was being facetious. Obviously if a guy who is elite offensively was suddenly not elite offensively he would be viewed differently, just like if a guy who was elite defensively was suddenly not elite defensively he would be viewed differently.
The problem is that is largely irrelevant. As long as the guy is elite in whatever way he is you have to view him in that context and not in some made-up one where he somehow isn't as good as he actually is.
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I also disagree that offensive dominance covers up everything.
"Look, if Karlsson is 20-30 points ahead of the next highest scoring defenseman... forget about it. That much offensive dominance covers up for pretty much anything else."
Bringing up Green, who I specifically mentioned by the way, isn't a relevant example of the kind of offensive dominance I am talking about.
9, 2, 5, 9, 7, 6.
23.
The first line is the difference in points between the highest scoring dman and the #2 guy. The second line is how many points ahead of #2 Karlsson is.
So yes, only being 7 or 9 (or 2) points ahead of the guy behind you isn't enough to cover up for significant flaws elsewhere in one's game. Being 23+ points is.
And this just flies right past actually talking about Karlsson's actual game and just presuming he's as bad defensively as Green was... and I don't think that's the case at all.
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To me, no matter how amazing his offensive season is that's a big knock against a guy when you can only really count on him in one phase of the game (scoring/PP) and not the other equally important one (defense/PK).
Obviously there's nothing wrong with that opinion, of course, but I'm merely looking at the realities of how these awards are voted on. Being that dominant offensively is going to give Karlsson a ton of Norris momentum.
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For my money, Shea Weber has had the most impressive season so far and against significantly tougher competition, almost twice as difficult on the matchups at ES as Karlsson.
Let me ask you a question. Can you compose a serious top 3 of dmen this year for the Norris that doesn't include Karlsson? If you can, I'd love to see it. If you can't, what exactly are you arguing about here? That instead of the #1 candidate for the Norris he's #2 or #3 at worst?
Let me ask you a question. Can you compose a serious top 3 of dmen this year for the Norris that doesn't include Karlsson? If you can, I'd love to see it. If you can't, what exactly are you arguing about here? That instead of the #1 candidate for the Norris he's #2 or #3 at worst?
Pietrangelo, Weber, Chara.
Even Lidström.
All before Karlsson.
I'm a huge Karlsson fan, I drafted him in my fantasy league three years ago, and I'm nothing but happy see him blossoming in point-producing.
But Norris Trophy is not just producing points. It's the All-around ability. The magic word.
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I'm just wondering, why does NHL not create new trophies for defencemen, most of the trophies are quite forward based? Art Ross, Rocket Richard, Selke etc... There could be "Paul Coffey/Bobby Orr Trophy" for best offensive defenceman and Norris Trophy for best overall defenceman or defensive defenseman. If there's a trophy for best defensive forward, I can't see why there couldn't be a trophy for best offensive defenceman? And that "new Norris" should be weighted even more from great defensive play. Then the "Marc Staals and Volchenkovs and Konstantinovs" could have their chance to get appreciation.
I hope Lidstrom heats up offensively during the last games. Strange that he hasn't gotten the points this year.
Karlsson +15, 40 Even strength points
Lidstrom +25, 15 Even strength points
Weber +19, 19 Even strength points
Chara +24, 21 Even strength points
Suter +14, 14 Even strength points
I can't believe people are bagging on Karlsson. He's playing 19.92 mins 5v5 per game. That's more than 2 mins per game more than Kuba and over 3 mins more per game than Gonchar. He's playing the second toughest competition behind Kuba and he's not far behind him at all. He has the second best corsi behind Kuba. So comparing him to Mike Green is laughable. Ottawa is a mediocre team overall which hurts his plus/minus. He's a very high quality d-man and as much as I want to see Lids win another Norris I view this year's trophy as Karlsson's to lose.
I'm just wondering, why does NHL not create new trophies for defencemen, most of the trophies are quite forward based? Art Ross, Rocket Richard, Selke etc... There could be "Paul Coffey/Bobby Orr Trophy" for best offensive defenceman and Norris Trophy for best overall defenceman or defensive defenseman. If there's a trophy for best defensive forward, I can't see why there couldn't be a trophy for best offensive defenceman? And that "new Norris" should be weighted even more from great defensive play. Then the "Marc Staals and Volchenkovs and Konstantinovs" could have their chance to get appreciation.
Then everybody would be happy.
There has been talk of creating a defensive defenseman award but obviously nothing's come from that. I'd think with the stats being widely available now it would be easier to judge. With defensive play I think a fair amount is highly subjective so giving an award based on something that is difficult to quantify is difficult. With points and plus/minus at least you have a number you can point to as the basis for awarding a guy a trophy.
So you can bump Karlsson all the way down to fourth? Wow, what a free fall.
That aside, Lidstrom ahead of Karlsson is a homer pick. Be honest.
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But Norris Trophy is not just producing points. It's the All-around ability. The magic word.
But offense has always been more important than defense in the Norris voting. Especially lately. This is because there are a load of dmen who can be good to great defensively when all they ahve to focus on is being good defensively. There is a far shorter list of guys who can be competent defensively while still being great offensively. This is why dmen who can produce points get huge contracts and dmen who can just be solid defensive players rarely make more than 4 mil a year anywhere.
That aside, let me tell you a story, it goes like this:
Those are the points rankings of the Norris winner all the way back to 2000. In 2009 I think it's pretty well established Lidstrom got screwed and he was 3rd, but whatever.
Defense is fine and good, but if you aren't putting up points you tend to not even get in the discussion.
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I'm just wondering, why does NHL not create new trophies for defencemen, most of the trophies are quite forward based?
Because the NHL's trophies and how they award them is stupid more often than not. I'm not trying to argue how the trophies should be awarded, I'm talking about how the trophies are awarded.
Problem for Karlsson is that Lidstrom did it while also being the BEST defensive defenseman in the game.
Yeah but he's still only 21 years old, he's atleast as good as lidstrom were at the same age,... Also if he plays until he's 40 or something who knows he might end up with more points than Lidstrom in his career.
